Does God Sever Fellowship With Us When We Sin?

[dcontroversal]

I've heard this repeated time and again. While we won't lose salvation when we sin, God will, however, break fellowship with us until we "repent" and stop sinning.

My question is this: How many times a day does God cease fellowship with us? Since we sin many times a day (if you're honest, you know this is true) does that mean we have fellowship, lose it, have it back, lose it again, get it back, all day long etc., ad nauseam?

And please don't bring up the old "pattern" of sin thing. As we indeed sin every day, day after day, week after week, etc. we all have such a pattern.

Do any believe we lose fellowship with God when we sin?

If so, why?

If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another.

My view equates to manner of life....if our manner of life reflects the glorious light of the truth we have fellowship...Jesus said he would NEVER LEAVE US OR FORSAKE US....and lest we forget...one who is biblically born again from above by the INCORRUPTABLE SEED <-->Saved and justified by faith, their sin (all of it) has been nailed to the cross and is not the issue.

Now watch how many come out of the wood work saying I said.....___________________!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"Sanctification is an event first where we are separated unto Christ (our position) and made holy once and for all, and then it’s a process where we learn to live out of that position of holiness. The process doesn’t sanctify us, it teaches us how to live a sanctified life."
Ryan Rufus

This is at least the 2nd time you've posted this quote. I didn't respond the first time because, well...

But I gotta say this guy makes no sense. First he says sanctification is an process, then he says this process (sanctification) doesn't sanctify us.

WUT?

Sanctification is the process of being sanctified. I've come to expect this kind of word-twisting, non-sensical stuff from people who teach the doctrine he does.

 

[DaveTheRave]

I've heard this repeated time and again. While we won't lose salvation when we sin, God will, however, break fellowship with us until we "repent" and stop sinning.

My question is this: How many times a day does God cease fellowship with us? Since we sin many times a day (if you're honest, you know this is true) does that mean we have fellowship, lose it, have it back, lose it again, get it back, all day long etc., ad nauseam?

And please don't bring up the old "pattern" of sin thing. As we indeed sin every day, day after day, week after week, etc. we all have such a pattern.

Do any believe we lose fellowship with God when we sin?

If so, why?

Hey man, great question!
The way I interpret it is that
1. We definitely lose fellowship with God when we sin but 2. It's not because he "breaks away" from us, it's because we walk away from him.

Because of our free will we always have the choice to walk away from God and try do things our own way. God is not a spoiled child who throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way, it's the fact that it is physically impossible to be both away from God and in his presence at the same time.

When we genuinely repent we return to God and he welcomes us like the Prodigal Son.

Hope this cleared it up a bit,
D

 

[wanderer6059]

OK, sorry, not trying to be confusing. I don't think I've said anything contradictory. I can agree that we have A righteous nature within us, which is the spirit of Christ, but I disagree that we ourselves - body, soul and spirit - are righteous. Does that make sense?

That does, but the last part body, soul, and spirit. That spirit by nature is righteous the moment of the new birth, if it was not then you would need something beyond the Cross to save. Our spirit is righteous now. Our soul is in the process of sanctification, and our body or flesh won't be redeemed till the Lord gives us a new one.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes I feel the same but that is my guilt and shame that I have focused on and not who I am in Christ,

These are emotions not reality, fellowship is spiritual not emotional.

I think I agree with marcelo and with you here...

We are supposed to know who we are, what is in us, what we are capable of even after we've met Him. But to wallow in guilt and condemnation for how we were born and what we are capable of even now, is not good. It will keep us from going to Him to ask for help, to ask for Him to increase us in virtue. I think to wallow in regret for how we were born is...hurt pride. I think it will cause us to try hard to not be the way we just are instead of depending on Him to change us.

 

[wanderer6059]

So, you mean you are not saved by faith and grace? We have to keep a specific number of divine laws?

Didn't say anything about works, just saying God has identified sin in our life and it is all the same to Him.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. [SUP]8 [/SUP]They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]He said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version. (1989). (Ge 3:6–11). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

I always find it interesting that Adam and Eve change, hiding from God, but God doesn't change. He still walks in the garden expecting to interact with Adam and Eve.

That's the BESTEST EVER example of a man sinning, which causes him to run and hide from God, and God NOT breaking fellowship with him but instead chasing him down and dealing with his sin between He and the man.

It is support for those who have said in this thread that God doesn't break fellowship with us but it's we ourselves who try to break fellowship with Him by hiding from Him (lest our sin be brought into the light).

Adam is the one who tried to break fellowship with God. God did not allow it.

 

[wanderer6059]

here are some verse "Ot" and "NT" that shows the answer to the OP is yes, and remember kids, the Most High does not change...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 66:18, "If I have seen wickedness in my heart, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]would not hear."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 17:9, "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter/Kepha 3:12, "For the eyes of YHWH are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers; but the face of YHWH is against those who do evil."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 34:12-16, “Who is the man who desires life, Who loves many days, in order to see good? Keep your tongue from evil, And your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do righteousness; Seek peace, and pursue it. The eyes of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]are on the righteous, And His ears unto their cry. The face of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is against evil-doers, To cut off their remembrance from the earth.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 15:29, "YHWH is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Micah 3:4, "Therefore, when they cry to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He does not answer them, and hides His face from them at that time, as they have made their deeds evil."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 1:15, “And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 1:28-29, "“Let them then call on me, but I answer not; Let them seek me, but not find me. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 57:17, "“For the crookedness of his unfair gain I was wroth and I struck him. I hid Myself and was wroth, and he went on backsliding in the way of his heart."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 28:9, “He who turns away his ear from hearing the Torah, Even his prayer is an abomination.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 27:8-9, "For what is the expectancy of the defiled one, when He does cut off, when Yah takes away his life? Would Yah hear his cry when distress comes upon him?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Zechariah 7:13, "“And it came to be: as He called and they did not hear, so let them call, but I shall not hear,” said [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 58:9, “Then, when you call, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]would answer; when you cry, He would say, ‘Here I am.’ “If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and the speaking of unrighteousness.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 21:13, "Whoever shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, Let him also cry and not be heard."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 66:18, "If I have seen wickedness in my heart, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]would not hear."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 34:15-16, "The eyes of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]are on the righteous, And His ears unto their cry. The face of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is against evil-doers, To cut off their remembrance from the earth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 4:1-3, “Where do fightings and strivings come from among you? Do they not come from your pleasures that battle in your members? You desire, and do not have. You murder, and are jealous, and are unable to obtain. You strive and fight, and you do not possess, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask evilly, in order to spend it on your pleasures.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 59:1-3, “Behold, YHWH's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear. But your own iniquities have separated you from your Father; and your own sins have caused Him to hide His face from you, so He will not listen. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; sin. Your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness."[/FONT]

1 all the OT verses are true but when it comes to God looking to us, He's sees the righteous nature of the spirit in us and the blood of Jesus covering our sins. So all the verses you quote whether OT or NT are about God looking at either the world that is wicked or the church that is righteous.

So again God will not sever His fellowship with you.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I totally agree with you that we should not be driven by our emotions. Some Christians say things like: "Oh, God made me feel (in my heart) that it's about time I move to a new and better home". This can be totally deceiving.

But if a Christian cheats the tax system and then feels guilty, this guilt is not a deceiving emotion -- rather, it's very useful because it can bring the person back on the right track with the Lord.

It can get tricky, because, like you say, when we have done something wrong, our conscience and the laws He has written on our heart, will tap us on the shoulder.

On the other hand, satan is a master at twisting us all up and making us feel guilt for seeing the truth and admitting the truth, telling us to think: why should God listen to my pleas for help after what I've done on my taxes?

It is because of what you've done on your taxes that you NEED His help.

In my own case, it is particularly bad when it is a sin I keep doing over and over, like letting myself advert to resentful thoughts every single morning when I see the state others left the kitchen in, when it was perfectly clean when I went to bed.

I need His help BECAUSE I can't stop adverting to resentment over my family members treating me like Cinderella. And yet satan whispers: look at how nasty and unforgiving you are. You just spent 25 minutes in an angry huff in your mind at everyone in the house. why should He listen to you when you won't stop being this way?

Then that leads to me not asking for the help I need because I think I have to stop being the way I was born before He should listen to me and answer my plea for help.

Twisted. That's what the accuser can do to me. He's disgusting.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I was going to say..."We break the fellowship when we sin, He doesn't with us."

but then there is this...

but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
(Isa 59:2)

Yeah but...you kind of have to read the rest of the chapter man...

The prophet says like...oh my gosh, you're in big trouble. Your sins have piled up so high that God won't even hear you when you call to Him. You've done this evil and that evil, etc., etc.

Then he says, God saw all the evil you've done and He saw it was going to go on that way unless He Himself brought a Redeemer. And then, the last paragraph of the chapter is so awesome that tears spring to your eyes and something in you untethers itself and starts flying upwards!

So the context and progression of the chapter is like a scary movie where there's a disaster and everyones going to die a fiery death on an airplane and then Bruce Willis comes and singlehandedly takes care of the problem and everyone cheers.

Read the whole chapter man! You'll be cheering at the end!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Fellowship is different than relationship. There's no way to have fellowship with GOD without acknowledging sin.

Well...yeah, that's true. If we aren't aware of our sin and seeing and admitting it's there, we're in a state of hiding our sin (and a lot of the time we aren't even aware we're hiding it until He shows us).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well one would think so but that would really depend on one's walk in spirit wouldn't it?
Because in your examples you are clarifying a person that might want to steal something and someone who is born again that you say wouldn't even "have the thought" to do so,that's "presuming" quite a lot,because granted our tendencies after being born again are primarily in line with Jesus's will but it's more accurate to say that a person who is born again with the intention of serving Jesus at that instance would not have thought to steal the watch.
I say this because though Jesus gives a "strong influence" if a person were to be shopping with no thought at that time of serving Jesus because they are simply "shopping" could very well still have the "thought" to steal out of many thoughts when we go "out into the world" because it's very easy to get "distracted" in such places though I would standby that a born again person"wouldn't steal" the watch.

The example i set out is not a perfect example and may be lacking in some respects.

In the example the person is born again. I was trying to clarify that a person can be born again and still walk according to the "old man" ... the old habit patterns developed before being born again.

1 Cor 1 - 3 talks about the church at Corinth and describes the believers as being "carnal". To me, 1 Cor 1 - 3 speaks of those who had not "put off" the "old man".

What I was trying to point out was the fact that if we find we are struggling to walk according to what we know from God’s Word, it could be that we have neglected to "put off" the "old man" and we are living in light of who we were in Adam as opposed to who we are in Christ as we "put on" the "new man". In the example I gave, the guy walking according to "old man" would be faced with inner conflict as he struggles to overcome the lusts of the flesh.

 

[JGIG]

That can happen when all they think about is freegrace. Many act like they don't need faith anymore once they make their 'decision'.

Faith is only of value when the object of that faith is Worthy.

For instance, I know some who behave as though their faith is the power that sustains their standing/salvation with God. The emphasis is out of place there. It seems as if their faith is in faith, not in Christ's power in sustaining them in and through this life.

Jesus said with faith as small as a mustard seed we can see great things. But it's not faith that brings about great things, but where we put that faith - in the substance and Work of Christ!

I've heard it said that it's not the size (seed) of faith that matters, but where we 'flick it' that is important!

Putting our faith, no matter how big or small, weak or strong, in Christ, results in an increasing harvest of trust in Him, Whose grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness \o/ (see Titus 2).

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I read in the Bible we're saved 1. BY GRACE 2. THROUGH FAITH(living by faith)

You added that last part to the Scripture. Living by faith is standing on what we know is true according to what Christ has done and who we are in Him. Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness. We rely on both - faith is how we stand (think shield of faith); one is how we walk.

18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (from 2 Pet. 3)


​

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. (from Tit. 2)​

​

This newfangled grace that's nothing like real grace is supposed to fix everything without us living by faith.

That makes its believers covenant breakers.

The New Covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Read the letter to the Hebrews. Read the letter to the Ephesians. Read the letter to the Galatians. God's requirements were fulfilled by God in the flesh, Christ. We enter into the New Covenant by God's grace, through faith. Once we enter into the New Covenant, it is God Who keeps us there. Think about it: the requirements and fulfillment of the New Covenant is outside of us. There is nothing that we do to enter in but to accept and receive what God had done in Christ. It is the gift of God (see Romans chapters 3-5). The New Covenant is superior to the Old in that we can't break it, because we are not one of the parties who ratified it! We enter in by faith. That's it. Entrance and residing in it is the Gift of God. God the Father and God the Son maintain the New Covenant in their perfection. New Covenant is based on better promises and is superior to the Old in every way!

Those refusing & rebelling from living by faith are breaking the New Covenant whereby God promised to keep us as we walk by faith.

It appears you deny the New Birth, the New Life, the New Heart that is put within us when we believe. You should not look at those who believe as the world does:

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (from 2 Cor. 5)​

It seems like someone who is so fixated on faith would have some faith that God is faithful to finish what He starts!

6 And I am sure [have faith that] of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Philippians 1)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

IMO so-called right faith is belief that can only be seen using the right lens. It is salvation by (right) knowledge.

Sounds a little like gnostic thought. (Sorry, couldn't resist .)

Poking fun, not accusing you of gnosticism .

Right believing is indeed important! It's how we understand our identity in Christ!

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The New Covenant is between God the Father and God the Son.

Total unscriptural fantasy. Jeremiah 31 clearly states that it is a covenant between the houses of Israel/Judah and GOD.

 

[JGIG]

This is at least the 2nd time you've posted this quote. I didn't respond the first time because, well...

But I gotta say this guy makes no sense. First he says sanctification is an process, then he says this process (sanctification) doesn't sanctify us.

WUT?

Sanctification is the process of being sanctified. I've come to expect this kind of word-twisting, non-sensical stuff from people who teach the doctrine he does.

A definition of the term sanctify is in order.

To sanctify is to set apart.

When we come into Christ, we are set apart unto God.

Sanctification is learning to walk in the truth that we are set apart.

And that's where grace comes in. Grace teaches us to walk as who we are!

It takes time to renew the mind from being an orphan to being the adopted of God!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Total unscriptural fantasy. Jeremiah 31 clearly states that it is a covenant between the houses of Israel/Judah and GOD.

Who does what in that passage?

God does it ALL.

Look it up.



-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

..

Guys, I may pop in here, or maybe not, from now through the next week.

Our son's Make A Wish trip is this week - we leave at 6am tomorrow. He wanted to see a volcano, so off we go to the Big Island of Hawaii, lol! Kilauea is certainly going to give him a memorable visit!

I'm overseeing the packing of our family of nine, so need to sign off and finish my chores .​

We'd appreciate your prayers for safe travels and for Daniel's wish to be everything he's hoped. He has gone through a lot with a lot of grace and moxie, and we're pretty proud of him! For those who don't know, Daniel is a metastatic brain and spine cancer survivor. We spent a year at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital with him, and all is well \o/.

Off to celebrate LIFE \o/ !!!!

Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG​

 

[Ralph-]

..

Guys, I may pop in here, or maybe not, from now through the next week.

Our son's Make A Wish trip is this week - we leave at 6am tomorrow. He wanted to see a volcano, so off we go to the Big Island of Hawaii, lol! Kilauea is certainly going to give him a memorable visit!

I'm overseeing the packing of our family of nine, so need to sign off and finish my chores .​

We'd appreciate your prayers for safe travels and for Daniel's wish to be everything he's hoped. He has gone through a lot with a lot of grace and moxie, and we're pretty proud of him! For those who don't know, Daniel is a metastatic brain and spine cancer survivor. We spent a year at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital with him, and all is well \o/.

Off to celebrate LIFE \o/ !!!!

Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG​

Blessings of peace and safety and mercy on you and your family.