the second adam.

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

You lose me there because if Jesus was just man he would be a sinner like us and unable to pay for our sins.

I am with you there.

John 1 clearly states that the "Word WAS God", and then goes on to say that "In him was life, and that light was the light of men. The light that shines in the darkness" and the goes on to say that John the Baptist came to testify concerning that light (the Word of God who WAS God) and then John the baptist adds that this light though coming after him surpassed him because he(the light) was before him. The in chapter 2 he says "This is the one I meant when I said "A man who come after me has surpassed me because he was before me"(speaking about Jesus). Now if you know you laws of mathematics, if two things are equal to the same thing they are equal to each other. the light = Jesus AND the light = the Word, thus Jesus = the Word. PLUS Jesus = the Word AND the Word = God, thus JESUS = GOD. Those are rules written into the very fabric of Science and Mathematics called the transitive property.

I don't claim to know all the answers but if you do your research you will find that Jesus not only IS God, but has to be God or all hope is lost.

See that is taking things out of context. Take the whole passage now and lets see what we have..

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

We are to believe in Jesus the only begotten Son of God. . .why? because he came into the world not to condemn the world but to save it. If we believe that Jesus is the Son of our holy and perfect God, then we must believe in his purpose here on earth. . .to be the Saviour of the world, our Saviour.

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Good verse but again taken out of context, this tells us that we are meant love, testify and confess. The Old Testament is clear enough in its prophecies that Jesus will be God with us, not like God to us, or a good Godly man, but GOD WITH US!

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Meridoc said:

You lose me there because if Jesus was just man he would be a sinner like us and unable to pay for our sins.

I am with you there.

John 1 clearly states that the "Word WAS God", and then goes on to say that "In him was life, and that light was the light of men. The light that shines in the darkness" and the goes on to say that John the Baptist came to testify concerning that light (the Word of God who WAS God) and then John the baptist adds that this light though coming after him surpassed him because he(the light) was before him. The in chapter 2 he says "This is the one I meant when I said "A man who come after me has surpassed me because he was before me"(speaking about Jesus). Now if you know you laws of mathematics, if two things are equal to the same thing they are equal to each other. the light = Jesus AND the light = the Word, thus Jesus = the Word. PLUS Jesus = the Word AND the Word = God, thus JESUS = GOD. Those are rules written into the very fabric of Science and Mathematics called the transitive property.

I don't claim to know all the answers but if you do your research you will find that Jesus not only IS God, but has to be God or all hope is lost.

See that is taking things out of context. Take the whole passage now and lets see what we have..

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

We are to believe in Jesus the only begotten Son of God. . .why? because he came into the world not to condemn the world but to save it. If we believe that Jesus is the Son of our holy and perfect God, then we must believe in his purpose here on earth. . .to be the Saviour of the world, our Saviour.

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Good verse but again taken out of context, this tells us that we are meant love, testify and confess. The Old Testament is clear enough in its prophecies that Jesus will be God with us, not like God to us, or a good Godly man, but GOD WITH US!

Well if you know the truth and I do not, you should be able to answer this question easily enough

But about the son He (the Fa\ther) says
Your throne O God will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefoire GOD, YOUR GOD has SET YOU ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS AND ANNOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF JOY
Heb 1:8&9

Two questions

How can God Himself refer to someone as 'My God'?

And thew above verses state that the son WAS SET ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS

So was the son first of all equal with his cpompanions?

If Christ is the one true God would that not have to mean that God Himself was at one time equal with his companions?
Do you believe such a thing to be possible?

Red33 · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I wonder who you would risk offending, if from your own lips you confessed that Jesus Christ was Almighty God, the one and only true God, that was manifest in the flesh, who took on a human form by becoming a man. Would you be offending Christians who have been saved by grace and love the Lord Jesus Christ, would you be offending any member of the Godhead, would you be bringing shame upon the Lord Jesus Christ or violating the integrity of God's word? Would you be communicating a lie that could deceive others and introduce leaven in their heart? Would you be injecting into the gospel of Christ a wrong concept that would keep sinners from salvation? Would you be adding some form doctrine that would magnify the spirit of antichrist? Or would you be violating what you believe the scriptures plainly teach you and what you believe the Spirit has made clear to you? Is it possible that even the demons and Satan recognize and believe that Jesus Christ is God?

These questions you can answer in your own heart, I don't need to know.

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Red33 said:

I wonder who you would risk offending, if from your own lips you confessed that Jesus Christ was Almighty God, the one and only true God, that was manifest in the flesh, who took on a human form by becoming a man. Would you be offending Christians who have been saved by grace and love the Lord Jesus Christ, would you be offending any member of the Godhead, would you be bringing shame upon the Lord Jesus Christ or violating the integrity of God's word? Would you be communicating a lie that could deceive others and introduce leaven in their heart? Would you be injecting into the gospel of Christ a wrong concept that would keep sinners from salvation? Would you be adding some form doctrine that would magnify the spirit of antichrist? Or would you be violating what you believe the scriptures plainly teach you and what you believe the Spirit has made clear to you? Is it possible that even the demons and Satan recognize and believe that Jesus Christ is God?

These questions you can answer in your own heart, I don't need to know.

As you never answer any questions put to you on this subject or respond to any scriptures placed before you I do not consider any words you wirte on this subject to carry any weight, therefore is little point in my replying to them

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

1st - God can because the God-Head is three parts in one, there is Father, Son and the Spirit of God also known as the Holy Spirit.

2nd - If you go back the Philippians 2 you find that Jesus humbled himself and took on the appearance of man and once his mission here on earth was fulfilled God exalted him to the highest place and a name above all names(Jesus Christ). So in a sense Jesus was placed on equal footing with his companions here on earth but as he did not sin he became exalted and set above all.

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

Your beliefs are not new, the Gnostic cult has been around for ages, John and Paul both deal with it in their books.

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Meridoc said:

1st - God can because the God-Head is three parts in one, there is Father, Son and the Spirit of God also known as the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I do not understand this answer. Are you saying that God Himself was first equal to his companions but then he raised himself above his companions?

2nd - If you go back the Philippians 2 you find that Jesus humbled himself and took on the appearance of man and once his mission here on earth was fulfilled God exalted him to the highest place and a name above all names(Jesus Christ). So in a sense Jesus was placed on equal footing with his companions here on earth but as he did not sin he became exalted and set above all

Scripture says that Christ was raised above his companions because he loved righteousness and hated wickedness, are you saying this did not happen before he came to earth? So in his preexistence in Heaven was Christ equal to his companions? Is this what you are saying?
God Himself was equal to his companions until he came to live on earth?

.

Answers above

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

God(the Father) did not raise himself he raised the Son(Jesus).

No before we was above, but then he lowered himself and then the Father raised him up again.

Red33 · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

This has become a weighty problem in your own heart and that is where God is going to deal with it. If you continue to live in unbelief you will never be transformed and your heart will only be hardened by that unbelief. But if you humble yourself and see the error of your way, then Christ will give you light and you will see Him for who He really is.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Just my take.

Angels have an heirarchy. Lucifer was the highest, and we have the archangels.

Mankind also have heirarchies as directed By God.

Since Man was created in Gods image, and since mankind and Angels have heirarchies. why can't God?

The Father is Jesus God, Or Leader, or Master or haowver you sih to put it. He is the ultimate or greates. Jesus gave him this Honor when he himself Stated the father was the "one true" God.

Scripture states Jesus was made lower than the angels (when he emptied himself and became man.)

If Jesus failed in his task, he would have remained lower than Angels (and we would be doomed for eternity) But he did not. So the father restored him to the Glory he had with the father before time began. Which means he was again set above the angels.

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Meridoc said:

Scripture says that because the son loved righteousness and hated wickedness he was raised above his companions, so when did the Father know his son loved righteousness and hated wickedness, for then he must have raised above his companions. Did the Father not know this concernig his son until he came to live on earth?

Scripture does not say Christ was TWICE raised above his companions, so when did this event take place?

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

He wasn't raised twice he was only lowered once. Jesus is part of the Trinity, the Godhead, three in one. That teaching is all through the Bible, you can't just ignore it. Its not that the Father didn't know, its that Jesus had the opportunity to mess it all up when he came to earth, and if he had it would have been disastrous.

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Meridoc said:

But you are NOT answering the question

Because the son(God Himself according to you) loved righteousness and hated wickedness he was raised above his companions, so when did this take place?
Scripture does not say the son was ONCE AGAIN raised above his companions. It would have to if it is refering to after Christ died on the cross as I am sure you believe he was above his companions before he came to earth

He was set above his companions BECAUSE HE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED WICKEDNESS according to scripture, did Christ not love righteousness and hate wickedness before he came to earth?
If he was not above his companions before he came to earth what was special concernig Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

He was set above BECAUSE HE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED WICKEDNESS on earth, the only reason he needed to be raised up in the first place is because he humbled himself and took on the appearance of man. So it wasn't until he was on the earth did it even became a question.

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Let me ask you this

In my vision at night I looked and thgere before me was one like the son of man coming with the clouds of Heaven.
He approached the ancient of days and was led into his prescence
He was gioven authoirt, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
Daniel 7:13&143

In relation to my previous question
Do you accept the one as the son of man is Christ?
Do you accept the ancient of days ids God, or the Father?

If so, the son(God Himself according to you) was given glory, authority and sovereign power. What was his position before he was given these things?

And is it possible for God Himself to have glory, authority and sovereign power bestowed upon him, can someone bestow such things in God Himself

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

Meridoc said:

So because Christ on earth loved righteousness and hated wickedness he was set above his companions?

Are you sure about this? Therefore Christ was not above his companions while he was on earth, is this what you believe?

So he was not above his companions before he came to earth, is this correct?

For scripture says he was only raised ONCE above his comanions

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Yes, Yes

You have to remember that this is a prophetic vision by Daniel of things to come, not something that happened before Jesus came, Jesus was and is part of the Godhead, the trinity.

and again this is Father giving to Son, not father to himself

eternally-gratefull · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Since he was above his complanions before, and only made lowere once. He only had to be raised Once. He did not have to be raised before because he already was.

Are you saying he was no above his ocmpanions before he came to earth?

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree, Christ was above his companions before he came to earth
I therefore he could not be raised above his companions again after he left this earth. He was already above them
Scripture does not say he was TWICE raised above his companions

Meridoc · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Phillipians 2

Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

He made himself nothing (ie equal to us) he was obedient, and thus exalted back into his place in heaven

the second adam.

Meridoc

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Meridoc

Guest

Meridoc

Guest

Banned

Meridoc

Guest

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Meridoc

Guest

Banned

Meridoc

Guest

Banned

Banned

Meridoc

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Meridoc

Guest