What is Arianism?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#1
Arianism

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature ... (100 of 684 words)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#2
Arianism

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature ... (100 of 684 words)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism
You know I sure do hear the word heresy used a lot on Christian chat sites

You are a heretic if you do or don't believe in filique
You are a heretic if you simply believe Christ is the son of God and not God Himself
You are a heretic if you believe the Father existed before the Son, even though he brought the son into existence before time as we know it began etc etc etc

In other words

'You are a heretic if you do not believe as I do, because I know the truth through deep study and have myself learned through my own striving and effort and human ability to know what I know
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#3
MODERN DAY ARIANS: WHO ARE THEY?

One of the greatest of the heretics in all of Church history was Arius of Alexandria. He lived from about A.D. 280 until 336 and had a profound influence upon the Church.

Arius was a presbyter (member of the governing body) of the Alexandrian Church and he taught that doctrine must be completely reasonable to the human mind or it was not biblical.

When human reason becomes the criterion for biblical doctrine, limitations are placed upon God who is infinite and His Word via man's finite mind. Therefore, if a certain doctrine is found to be unreasonable in Man's understanding, it would follow that it would also be unscriptural.

The doctrine of Christ had already been responsible for considerable agitation of the Church. Before Arius came on the scene, heresy had already played a major role in forcing the Church to express definite views of doctrine.

Beginning toward the end of the first century and especially into the second and third centuries, Gnosticism pressured the Church fathers into defining and defending some of the major doctrines of Christianity; particularly concerning Christology (the person, nature, and work of Christ).

The teachings of Arius in the fourth century had the same results. In fact, the greatest theological works and statements of faith produced in the early church were a direct result of answering heretics.

So what was it in Arius' doctrine of Christ that made it heresy? Arius said: "We must either suppose two divine original essences, without beginning and independent of each other, we must substitute a dyarchy for a monarchy, or we must not shrink from asserting that the logos had a beginning of his existence -- that there was when he was not (Albert Newman, A Manual of Church History, p. 326).

This action resulted in a schism of the Alexandrian Church which spread quickly throughout the rest of the Church. It eventually led to the Nicene Council where Athanasius, one of the greatest thinkers in Church history, championed Orthodoxy and the Niceen Creed was drafted.

This creed says in part, "We believe ...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from His Father, only begotten, that is from the substance of the Father... begotten not made, of one substance with the Father..." (Hoekema, The Four Major Cults, p.328).

There is no doubt that the closing statement of the creed had Arius in mind as it reads:

But as for those who say, there was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different... substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change -- these the Catholic [that is, Universal] Church anathematizes," (Ibid).

A summary of the Arian view follows:

1. The son was created out of nothing; hence, he is different in essence from the Father; that he is Logos, Wisdom, Son of God, is only of grace. He is not so in himself.

2. There was, when he was not; i.e., he is a finite being.

3. He was created before everything else, and through him the universe was created and is administered.

4. In the historical Christ the human element is merely the material; the soul is the Logos. The historical Christ, therefore, had no human soul...

5. The Arians held, that although the incarnate Logos is finite, and hence not God, he is to be worshipped, as being unspeakably exalted above all other Creatures, the immediate Creator and Governor of the universe, and the Redeemer of man.

6. The Arians adhered to the Scriptures, and were willing to employ as their own any scriptural statements of doctrine (A Manual for Church History, p.327).

From the foregoing, who, then, would be the modern-day counterparts to Arius? It is the organization which claims that Abel was the first of their number and then proceeds to claim the rest of the men of God mentioned in the Bible were ancestors to their organization.

Then, beginning with Jesus, they give the remaining line of their ancestors as follows:

"(1) Jesus to Paul, (2) Paul to Arius, (3) Arius to Waldo, (4) Waldo to Wycliff, (5) Wycliff to Luther, and (6) Luther to Charles Taze Russell (Gruss, Apostles of Denial, p.9).

Who are they?

The modern-day Arians are none other than the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell was the founder of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the parent of the Jehovah's Witnesses. With the exception of Arius, there is no relationship between the Witness and the line of ancestors claimed by them.

Concerning Waldo, Wycliff and Luther, the only similarity is that they worked outside the Church of their day. These men were all Christian leaders.

Arius, however, is truly an ancestor of the Witnesses. Note the similarity of the Watchtower Christology to that of Arius in the following:

1. The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced (created) by Jehovah alone.

2. This Son is the firstborn [to the Watchtower, it means first created] of all creation.

3. By means of Him (Jesus) all other things in heaven and on earth were created.

4. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe (Reasoning From The Scriptures, p.209).

5. The Bible is Jehovah God's written Word to humankind. He uses some 40 human secretaries over a period of 16 centuries to record it, but God himself actively directed the writing by His Spirit. Thus it is inspired by God (Reasoning, p.58).

6. But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, this "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives.

Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do (The Watchtower, 1 Dec. 1981, p.27).

Now there are also some differences between the Christology of Arius and that of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For instance, whereas Arius would teach that Jesus' human element is merely the material with the Logos being the soul (no human soul), the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that since one is to worship God alone, Jesus should not be worshipped, since he is merely a creature.

However, as demonstrated above, in the most important of doctrines in the Church, Christology, there is more than enough similarity between the two to leave no doubt that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Arians of our day.

MODERN DAY ARIANS: WHO ARE THEY? An article about the theological roots of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Believersweb.org
 
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S

Scotth1960

Guest
#4
[quote=zone;428836]Arianism

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature ... (100 of 684 words)


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism[/quote]
For more on the Orthodox Church versus Arianism, see:

http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Orthodox_Church

Take care.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


 
Dec 19, 2009
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#5
You know I sure do hear the word heresy used a lot on Christian chat sites

You are a heretic if you do or don't believe in filique
You are a heretic if you simply believe Christ is the son of God and not God Himself
You are a heretic if you believe the Father existed before the Son, even though he brought the son into existence before time as we know it began etc etc etc

In other words

'You are a heretic if you do not believe as I do, because I know the truth through deep study and have myself learned through my own striving and effort and human ability to know what I know
In other words

I am the way. Truth and life comes from believing the truth I know, follow me and you will enter Heaven

But I am filled with humility:D
 
D

dmdave17

Guest
#6
'You are a heretic if you do not believe as I do, because I know the truth through deep study and have myself learned through my own striving and effort and human ability to know what I know
In other words

I am the way. Truth and life comes from believing the truth I know, follow me and you will enter Heaven

But I am filled with humility:D
Amen to that! It seems like we hear a lot of "interpretation" put forth as truth. But as far as the bold statement above (pardon the pun), it seems like I've seen that before. Oh yeah, John 14:6. Do I really need to quote it here? I believe we spend far too much time on our differences, and too little time on what we should agree on. And that would be John 3:16 and John 14:6.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#8
Isaiah 6
Isaiah’s Vision of the Lord
1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the traina of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”b

4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

~

John 12
The Unbelief of the People
When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. 42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#9
Amen to that! It seems like we hear a lot of "interpretation" put forth as truth. But as far as the bold statement above (pardon the pun), it seems like I've seen that before. Oh yeah, John 14:6. Do I really need to quote it here? I believe we spend far too much time on our differences, and too little time on what we should agree on. And that would be John 3:16 and John 14:6.
hi dave:
is Jesus God?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#11
hi dave:
is Jesus God?

If I may help you here Zone so you can clarify the question you are asking people

It should read

Do you believe Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD

For we all know according to scripture Christ has the title God

God said HIS NAME was in the angel who accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, and then there is Heb 1:8&9

Not trying to be difficult but you do need to stress the one true God in your question
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#12
If I may help you here Zone so you can clarify the question you are asking people

It should read

Do you believe Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD

For we all know according to scripture Christ has the title God

Gaod said HIS NAME was in the angel who acclompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, and then there is Heb 1:8&9

Not trying to be difficult but you do need to stress the one true God in your question

Are you saying he is god but not the one true god? sounds very much like it to me and everyone reading?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#13
Are you saying he is god but not the one true god? sounds very much like it to me and everyone reading?
Rather than me give you any opion of my own for I do not wish it to be misconstrued I will simply recitre scripture

But about the son He(the Father) says
Your throne O GOD will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD
Has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb 1:8&9

See, I am sending my angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says
Do not rebel against him, he will not forgive your rebellion, SINCE MY NAME IS IN HIM

Ex 23:20&21


In that day there WILL BE ONE LORD and his name the only name
Zech 14:9

Jesus answered them

Is it not written in your law
I have said ye are gods.
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and the scriptures cannot be broken-what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world

John 10:34-36

For even if there are so called gods whether in Heaven or on earth(as indeed there are many gods and many lords)
Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM WHOM all things came and FOR WHOM we live and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH WHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live

1 Cor 8:5&6

That they may know you(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#14
Rather than me give you any opion of my own for I do not wish it to be misconstrued I will simply recitre scripture

But about the son He(the Father) says
Your throne O GOD will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD
Has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb 1:8&9

See, I am sending my angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says
Do not rebel against him, he will not forgive your rebellion, SINCE MY NAME IS IN HIM

Ex 23:20&21


In that day there WILL BE ONE LORD and his name the only name
Zech 14:9

Jesus answered them

Is it not written in your law
I have said ye are gods.
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and the scriptures cannot be broken-what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world

John 10:34-36

For even if there are so called gods whether in Heaven or on earth(as indeed there are many gods and many lords)
Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM WHOM all things came and FOR WHOM we live and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH WHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live

1 Cor 8:5&6

That they may know you(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3


lol you hide under a lot of verse, I wasnt asking for a list of one liner verses.

I asked you a very very very simple question.

Do you belive Jesus was also a god, that means the Father is one god, and Jesus is another god, this makes 2 gods.

can yopu give a simple answer? rtather than being ambigious and deceptive?

its either yes or no?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#15
lol you hide under a lot of verse, I wasnt asking for a list of one liner verses.

I asked you a very very very simple question.

Do you belive Jesus was also a god, that means the Father is one god, and Jesus is another god, this makes 2 gods.

can yopu give a simple answer? rtather than being ambigious and deceptive?

its either yes or no?
I have quoted those verse a lot, you never give me your opinions on them

So, I will answer your question once you first give me your opinion of the scriptures I have quoted. How do you see them?

You would not object to giving your opinion of those scriptures would you? You do have an opinion of them don't you?

And as I have answered your question many times before(if you were honest) I think it is your turn to FOR ONCE give your opinion of those scriptures instead of simply finding fault with me but passing no opinions of your own on such scripture, that is a cop out
 
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Dec 19, 2009
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#16
I have quoted those verse a lot, you never give me your opinions on them

So, I will answer your question once you first give me your opinion of the scriptures I have quoted. How do you see them?

You would not object to giving your opinion of those scriptures would you? You do have an opinion of them don't you?

And as I have answered your question many times before(if you were honest) I think it is your turn to FOR ONCE give your opinion of those scriptures instead of simply finding fault with me but passing no opinions of your own on such scripture, that is a cop out
Well as I am whistling in the wind to expect you to answer my question I will yet again answer yours. I just hope the INDEPENDANT observer notices who is and who does not answer questions put to them

Christ has the Title God and is A God, absolutely, SCRIPTURE is clear on this. He was the God of Israel seen by 74 people in the wilderness. But he is also the SON OF the one true God
In Biblical times many were refered to as gods as I have CLEARLY SHOWN YOU FROM SCRIPTURE
BUT neither Christ nor anyone else who was called god is the one true God, as Christ CLEARLY STATED

Now I don't know how many times you are gonig to ask me this question, but once again I have answered it. It is a pity you cannot answer the scriptures put to you yourself
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#17
I have quoted those verse a lot, you never give me your opinions on them

So, I will answer your question once you first give me your opinion of the scriptures I have quoted. How do you see them?

You would not object to giving your opinion of those scriptures would you? You do have an opinion of them don't you?

And as I have answered your question many times before(if you were honest) I think it is your turn to FOR ONCE give your opinion of those scriptures instead of simply finding fault with me but passing no opinions of your own on such scripture, that is a cop out

Ohh man you make me laugh, I have answered quite a few of your ''one liner''proof texts.

Yet since they are your proof texts that Jesus is another god, why can't you explain them in context in the view of all scripture? anyhow it won't happen.

so have a nice evening LBG
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#18
Phil

I will tell you what I have told two other people

You CANNOT be being led of the Holy Spirit and I will say this with full assurity

For you do not accept what Christ CLEARLY SAID was the neccessary belief to have in him for a person to have eternal life, and the spirit WOULD NOT contradict the plain words of Christ

Christ only commanded that people see him as the son of God to have eternal life, he clearly and continuously stated this. He did not command anyone to consider his nature or anything else, the command was clear, simply believe I am the son of God

You do not accept that is enough of a belief for someone to have eternal life therefore you are being led by yourself, not the Spirit

He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a true person, there is nothing false about him#
John 7:18

Now, you have had 48 hours to produce a sermon from a Baptist church that I can download where it is clearly stated
A belief that Christ is the son of God but not God Himself is heretical and a person is condemned for such a belief
Do you need more time to find one? It's OK if you do, I can be patient

As you have said this subject is the basis of the Christian faith, surely you can produce one sermon where a minister fronm the pulpit in the Baptist chiurch says what I have asked
 
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Dec 19, 2009
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#19
Ohh man you make me laugh, I have answered quite a few of your ''one liner''proof texts.

Yet since they are your proof texts that Jesus is another god, why can't you explain them in context in the view of all scripture? anyhow it won't happen.

so have a nice evening LBG
Once again no answer, just untruths,

Where are your Christian morals?
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#20
No probs LBG, your entitled to your opinons.

Untruths :)