Can someone lose their salvation?

[livingbygrace]

This post is an example of those that violate the finished work of Christ and make God's eternal salvation and keeping power suspect and dependent on one's ability to hate sin and go after holiness. That has nothing to do with the grace of God and will only result in striving in the flesh. Grace is given to edify and build up the believer in the truth and not condemn the believer by making him think that he can forfeit and walk away from redemption. How do you walk away from redemption when the Holy Spirit had sealed you until you go home to be with the Lord?

How these people get by redemption and the fact that we have been purchased and bought by the blood of Christ. We are God's possession and not our own and God takes the rest of our lives to work that in us so that it can be worked out as adopted sons. To listen to these professing believers is just not a good thing and they do not edify the members of God's body with their terrible understanding of the finished work. They do not understand that we have been justified forever by the blood of Christ and the basis for sanctification is based upon the grace of the finished work of Christ that is ministered to us through the word and Spirit as I grow in grace and knowledge of Christ.

Well I can tell you now very few people on cc will agree with your version of grace. I have been to churches for twice as long as you have been saved and I never met one person who agreed with your belief. Doubtless to you that means they did not have the spritual insight you have. But as I have already told you. You must have greater insight than Spurgeon as he did not believe what you do

He preached to thousands every weekl. If you have greater spiritual knowledge than did he concerning the message of grace, why are you not preaching to thousands each week? Something must be wrong somewhere

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While God would never take back the gift of salvation, that doesn't mean that you can't throw it it away. I can't tell you the number of people I have met, who had confessed their sins and began the journey only to turn their bacls to God because they were not able to overcome the sin in their lives. Let's see what Jesus himself has to say about this very issue in the parable of the sower. I will first post the parable itself then follow it up with Jesus' own explaination. I will mark the section relevant to this conversation with ***___***:

If you read my post. John speaks of this. One can not throw away something they never had.

Confessing ones sins does not save you anyway, It takes a faith in God. If one does not have faith they are not saved.

Paul could not overcome all his sin issues either. (Read romans 7) just because one can not be sinless does not mean they are not saved.

Matthew 13: 3-9 (The parable itself)

And He told them many things in parables (stories by way of illustration and comparison), saying, A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell by the roadside, and the birds came and ate them up.


*** Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil; and at once they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they dried up and withered away. ***

These people did not have faith at all (root) and because they had no faith, they were quickly as this passage said "scorched" and they departed or withered away.

It is like people who are into fads. They try different things out, not really having faith in anything, And once they realise it does not do anything for them, they move to another "fad" Again if you do not have faith. you have no salvation. Saying a few words does not save you. God sees the heart, and saves those he knows has faith. not those going through a fad.

Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them out. Other seeds fell on good soil, and yielded grain--some a hundred times as much as was sown, some sixty times as much, and some thirty.

He who has ears [to hear], let him be listening and let himconsider and perceive and comprehend by hearing.

Matthew 13: 18-23 (Jesus' own explaination)

Listen then to the [meaning of the] parable of the sower:


While anyone is hearing the Word of the kingdom and does not grasp and comprehend it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the roadside.

this would be people who did not have faith. because their hearts were closed. They heard it, but did not really believe it. If they had faith in Christ, they would not have departed. It was their lack of faith which allowed satan to choke them out.

***As for what was sown on thin (rocky) soil, this is he who hears the Word and at once welcomes and accepts it with joy; Yet it has no real root in him, but is temporary (inconstant, lasts but a little while); and when affliction or trouble or persecution comes on account of the Word, at once he is caused to stumble [he is repelled and begins to distrust and desert Him Whom he ought to trust and obey] and he falls away. ***

See above, They had no true faith, it was just a fad to them, and when something better came along, or they realised it was not what they thought it was. they left.

As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the Word, but the cares of the world and the pleasure and delight and glamour and deceitfulness of riches choke and suffocate the Word, and it yields no fruit.

This is close to those on rocky soil. Except here. People cared about their sin more than they really cared about God? Why? Because they really had not repented (even if they said they did) since there was no repentance. There was no salvation. And as soon as they realised what they really wanted to do, they left. No repentnace as well as no faith is this groups problem.

As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the Word and grasps and comprehends it; he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundred times as much as was sown, in another sixty times as much, and in another thirty.

Ah yes. As James said, those who truely have faith will show works. and produce fruit. Those who have no faith. or a dead faith (as in the other three examples) have no salvation. only words.

As you can clearly rread for yourself, some people do indeed fall away. As I said in my earlier post, you can not unknowingly lose your salvation. However, one can willingly turn and walk away (that is if they were truly saved in the first place). The thing to remember here is this: Never give up on God and He will never give up on you!

Well I do not believe one can walk away, I believe as John said, those who left or walked away were never a true part of the church. The left as John said that, "It might be manifest that they were never of us".

 

[zone]

One of the the largest obtacles in the church today are "believers" who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Because of this, they have embraced doctrines of compromise. They want to believe that after their inititial salvation that God will no longer hold them accountable for future sin. In fact, they go so far as to claim that once saved a person can turn their back on God, convert to another pagan religion or even worship satan himself, foresaking God and the gospel and still go to heaven when they die. This is another lie from hell!!

who are you hanging out with?
i have NEVER heard anyone say any such thing.

when you say "take responsibility for one's own actions" do you mean take credit for one's salvation? (as well as responsibility for going to The Lord in confession)

Jesus (the author of our salvation) clearly teaches that we are to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and stregth". !

you realize this a summary of The Decalogue, right?

do you really think you fulfill this as God requires for justification?

i know we long to fulfill this, and i know we DO LOVE THE LORD with everything in us (at times): but any one who has the Spirit of Truth in them would NEVER claim they are able do this perfectly.

only Jesus fulfilled these according to God's Standards.

the rest of us rely on Grace upon Grace and Mercy, and the Righteousness of God, which is Christ's Righteousness.

He also goes on to say that a "man can not have two masters for he will love one and hate the other".!

this is about money primarily.
but idolatry in general.

do you think you don't have idols in your life (heart)?

try this sermon and see if you feel convicted:

Phil Johnson: No Other gods

2009-11-15am-PJ
No Other gods
(Series: PJ-CDA03)
Exodus 20:3
Listen

http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/philsermons.htm

The idea that a person can be free from sin despite being consumed by sin is absolutely ridulous!

the idea that a person is ever sinless is ridiculous: maybe you don't know what sin really is.
try that sermon.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Well I can tell you now very few people on cc will agree with your version of grace. I have been to churches for twice as long as you have been saved and I never met one person who agreed with your belief. Doubtless to you that means they did not have the spritual insight you have. But as I have already told you. You must have greater insight than Spurgeon as he did not believe what you do

He preached to thousands every weekl. If you have greater spiritual knowledge than did he concerning the message of grace, why are you not preaching to thousands each week? Something must be wrong somewhere

I've blocked Red33 because, according to his own admission, he is the one that believes that once a person is saved they never have to repent ever again, a doctrine which completely ignores the scriptural teachings concerning how the Holy Spirit sanctifies and matures a believer. He believes trhat a person can have two masters (both Self and God) and that a person can can be free from sin while still enslaved by sin. That is not the gospel of the bible nor the gospel that Jesus and so many have given their lives to preach.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

If you read my post. John speaks of this. One can not throw away something they never had.

Confessing ones sins does not save you anyway, It takes a faith in God. If one does not have faith they are not saved.

Paul could not overcome all his sin issues either. (Read romans 7) just because one can not be sinless does not mean they are not saved.



These people did not have faith at all (root) and because they had no faith, they were quickly as this passage said "scorched" and they departed or withered away.

It is like people who are into fads. They try different things out, not really having faith in anything, And once they realise it does not do anything for them, they move to another "fad" Again if you do not have faith. you have no salvation. Saying a few words does not save you. God sees the heart, and saves those he knows has faith. not those going through a fad.



this would be people who did not have faith. because their hearts were closed. They heard it, but did not really believe it. If they had faith in Christ, they would not have departed. It was their lack of faith which allowed satan to choke them out.



See above, They had no true faith, it was just a fad to them, and when something better came along, or they realised it was not what they thought it was. they left.



This is close to those on rocky soil. Except here. People cared about their sin more than they really cared about God? Why? Because they really had not repented (even if they said they did) since there was no repentance. There was no salvation. And as soon as they realised what they really wanted to do, they left. No repentnace as well as no faith is this groups problem.



Ah yes. As James said, those who truely have faith will show works. and produce fruit. Those who have no faith. or a dead faith (as in the other three examples) have no salvation. only words.



Well I do not believe one can walk away, I believe as John said, those who left or walked away were never a true part of the church. The left as John said that, "It might be manifest that they were never of us".

They walked away because they were never taught the entirety of the gospel. They were tauight that Jesus forgives our sin but they were never properly discipled in the ways in which Christ gives us the strength to walk away from the desires of the flesh . Thus, when they read or heard the word of God, they felt condemned because they were unable to walk in obedience to the scripture in & of their own stength. It's not that these people weren't willing to accept the truth, but rather because they weren't taught the full truth of the gospel thus those who failed to instruct them properly will have to answer to God for the faulty gospel that they preach.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

They walked away because they were never taught the entirety of the gospel. They were tauight that Jesus forgives our sin but they were never properly discipled in the ways in which Christ gives us the strength to walk away from the desires of the flesh . Thus, when they read or heard the word of God, they felt condemned because they were unable to walk in obedience to the scripture in & of their own stength. It's not that these people weren't willing to accept the truth, but rather because they weren't taught the full truth of the gospel thus those who failed to instruct them properly will have to answer to God for the faulty gospel that they preach.

I case you missed it, I percieve the "rocks" in this parable to be the religous and the self righteous.

 

[livingbygrace]

They walked away because they were never taught the entirety of the gospel. They were tauight that Jesus forgives our sin but they were never properly discipled in the ways in which Christ gives us the strength to walk away from the desires of the flesh . Thus, when they read or heard the word of God, they felt condemned because they were unable to walk in obedience to the scripture in & of their own stength. It's not that these people weren't willing to accept the truth, but rather because they weren't taught the full truth of the gospel thus those who failed to instruct them properly will have to answer to God for the faulty gospel that they preach.

This is very true. I have seen many give up and leave churches in effect believing they could not be good enough for God

An American lady told me that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches
They were never told the true Gospel of grace

Grace is not a belief of legalism
Neither is it a belief that anything goes and you are saved no matter what you do or how you act

The true Gospel has great power and sets people free

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of the the largest obtacles in the church today are "believers" who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Because of this, they have embraced doctrines of compromise. They want to believe that after their inititial salvation that God will no longer hold them accountable for future sin. In fact, they go so far as to claim that once saved a person can turn their back on God, convert to another pagan religion or even worship satan himself, foresaking God and the gospel and still go to heaven when they die. This is another lie from hell!

Jesus (the author of our salvation) clearly teaches that we are to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and stregth". He also goes on to say that a "man can not have two masters for he will love one and hate the other".

The idea that a person can be free from sin despite being consumed by sin is absolutely ridulous!

James addressed these "Licentious? people in his epistle. People who say a few words and believe they can go on living they way they had and God will just save them do not understand the gospel. They have bought into a licentious gospel. they will be proven by their lack of works, because their faith is dead. They never repented. They are no better than the pharisees. They see no problem with their sin. Thus could not have come to the throne of grace, because in order to do so, you have to admit your sin is real. and it is what separates you from God. Someone who does not believe this has not repented, their faih is dead. and they were never saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They walked away because they were never taught the entirety of the gospel.

They how could they ever have been saved in the first place then? They could not have placed their faith in an incomplete gospel and be saved now could they?

They were tauight that Jesus forgives our sin but they were never properly discipled in the ways in which Christ gives us the strength to walk away from the desires of the flesh . Thus, when they read or heard the word of God, they felt condemned because they were unable to walk in obedience to the scripture in & of their own stength. It's not that these people weren't willing to accept the truth, but rather because they weren't taught the full truth of the gospel thus those who failed to instruct them properly will have to answer to God for the faulty gospel that they preach.

Thats the problem with the legalistic Gospel. No one can live up to the law. Even people who realy try to give up a sin habit and struggle and eventually give up because they think they could never be saved, because they do not match up to the law. so why try.. Instead of learning to trust Christ, and getting help from a brother or sister and seeing victory. they don;t try, because why bother. You can't live up to the law. so you could never be saved. Well none of us can live according to the law. We will all fail. The difference is those who trust to Christ come to God like they come to their forgiving father, and admit they made a mistake. But will keep trying to over come this. and ask God for help. Vs those who come to God thinking he is a slave driver and will never forgive them. so why bother.

 

[zone]

They walked away because they were never taught the entirety of the gospel. They were tauight that Jesus forgives our sin but they were never properly discipled in the ways in which Christ gives us the strength to walk away from the desires of the flesh . Thus, when they read or heard the word of God, they felt condemned because they were unable to walk in obedience to the scripture in & of their own stength. It's not that these people weren't willing to accept the truth, but rather because they weren't taught the full truth of the gospel thus those who failed to instruct them properly will have to answer to God for the faulty gospel that they preach.

this is generally true.
BUT: the people who taught them incorrectly, and who will answer for it, are the BOOTSTRAP preachers who tell these believers they are not saved because they fell short, because they aren't righteous enough, perfect enough, "operating in the giftings" and so on.

(honest christians admit to and recognize their unworthiness all their lives).

over time victory over our sins becomes more frequent and lasting AS we learn (the hard way) how much it hurts, how much it hurts to be chastened by The Lord, and how much God hates sin both through experience and our study of the Word).

BUT NEVER EVER EVER should these realities be separated from the Gospel message for CHRISTIANS who need it preached as often as the unsaved need it preached.

far too often "leaders" and those who would "disciple" believers forget WHO is working salvation and sanctification in those believers and the next thing
you know those believers are caught up in the dreadful cycle of PERFORMANCE and WORKS (evidenced) salvation.

most Holiness people and Charismatics are, not suprisingly, Arminians.

 

[zone]

They how could they ever have been saved in the first place then? They could not have placed their faith in an incomplete gospel and be saved now could they?



Thats the problem with the legalistic Gospel. No one can live up to the law. Even people who realy try to give up a sin habit and struggle and eventually give up because they think they could never be saved, because they do not match up to the law. so why try.. Instead of learning to trust Christ, and getting help from a brother or sister and seeing victory. they don;t try, because why bother. You can't live up to the law. so you could never be saved. Well none of us can live according to the law. We will all fail. The difference is those who trust to Christ come to God like they come to their forgiving father, and admit they made a mistake. But will keep trying to over come this. and ask God for help. Vs those who come to God thinking he is a slave driver and will never forgive them. so why bother.
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AMEN!
it's the works based guys that send the poor new convert packing.
(p.s. Daniel 9 is fulfilled)

 

[Red33]

I've blocked Red33 because, according to his own admission, he is the one that believes that once a person is saved they never have to repent ever again, a doctrine which completely ignores the scriptural teachings concerning how the Holy Spirit sanctifies and matures a believer. He believes trhat a person can have two masters (both Self and God) and that a person can can be free from sin while still enslaved by sin. That is not the gospel of the bible nor the gospel that Jesus and so many have given their lives to preach.

A few more 'blocks' and we can have a 'block party'. The only thing wrong is that at the party everyone would be ignoring each other and what kind of party is that, NO FUN! lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

AMEN!
it's the works based guys that send the poor new convert packing.
(p.s. Daniel 9 is fulfilled)

Yes, they just can't see it!

ps..

 

[livingbygrace]

They how could they ever have been saved in the first place then? They could not have placed their faith in an incomplete gospel and be saved now could they?



Thats the problem with the legalistic Gospel. No one can live up to the law. Even people who realy try to give up a sin habit and struggle and eventually give up because they think they could never be saved, because they do not match up to the law. so why try.. Instead of learning to trust Christ, and getting help from a brother or sister and seeing victory. they don;t try, because why bother. You can't live up to the law. so you could never be saved. Well none of us can live according to the law. We will all fail. The difference is those who trust to Christ come to God like they come to their forgiving father, and admit they made a mistake. But will keep trying to over come this. and ask God for help. Vs those who come to God thinking he is a slave driver and will never forgive them. so why bother.
[/color]

Agreed, no-one can live up to the law. If a person believes they have to strive to obey the law to remain a Christian they will Biblically speaking end up a worse sinner

BUT and this is a huge but it is because the Christian knows in their heart they do not have to strive to uphold the written law to remain a Christian, it is because they know that they stand on faith in Christ their one and only righteousness for Heaven that the law is far better upheld in their life

Do we therefore nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! RATHER WE UPHOLD THE LAW

Rom 3:31

This does not mean we will be perfect in the flesh. But the true Gospel message of grace is that by not being under the law we far better uphold it and by grace and trusting in Christ and relying on the Holy Spirit to sanctify us we live far more as God would have us live and that is an integral part of rhe Gospel of grace

It is Christ's responsibility to change us, not our own if we put our faith in him to do it, and faith in Christ cannot be said to go unrewarded

But Christianity is a journey if you like. We come to God broken sinners, steeped in sin(I admit I did)
We are yet without strength, but by faith in Christ we become stronger and our feet are placed on firm ground by Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit

Then there comes a time when God inevitably wants us to go on with him, take up our individual cross and follow after his son. We are not expected immediately upon conversion to do this, but as we grow stronger, so more is expected. You woud not ask an infant to walk five miles, but you may once that infant has grown, matured and become stronger
And it is a fact that for some they do not want to then go on and do the work required of them and give God what he requires from their life from the heart.
For many of them(and I do not say all) they then fall back in their minds to grace without responsibility and this is what they preach, and that is not the truth of the Gospel of grace.

Grace that does not set people free and give them much victory over sin in their life is not the grace of the Bible
And it is not the truth of true grace that someone can become a Christian and not show any change for the better in their lives for year after year, biblically speaking that is impossible, and that is what people need to accept. Christ did not die for sinners so they would remain steeped in the sin they were in at conversion, he died to set them free. And if there is no change in an individual over a CONSIDERABLE LENGTRH OF TIME they are not living in grace.
That is not being said to condemn anyone, but a belief that there is power in the cross of Christ, and if that power is not seen to bring results then the individual is not living in true grace

 

[MaggieMye]

People perish for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. You CAN lose it or the Word of God would not say that He could erase your name from the book of life. The WORD says that He will NOT erase it IF you are an overcomer. This is reality. He Gives us the oppotunity which we can turn our backs on even after believing....the devil believes, remember? THere are many who believe in Christ and are even committed to Him, but they do not DO the word, they do not overcome, they are NOT CONQUERERS. The BRIDE will be pure and strong, not weak and only hoping. She will be DOING and OVERCOMING.

"We then need to ABIDE in HIM. " Many THINK they abide in Him, but in reality they do not. Their name will be erased.

Maggie

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed, no-one can live up to the law. If a person believes they have to strive to obey the law to remain a Christian they will Biblically speaking end up a worse sinner

BUT and this is a huge but it is because the Christian knows in their heart they do not have to strive to uphold the written law to remain a Christian, it is because they know that they stand on faith in Christ their one and only righteousness for Heaven that the law is far better upheld in their life

Do we therefore nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! RATHER WE UPHOLD THE LAW

Rom 3:31

This does not mean we will be perfect in the flesh. But the true Gospel message of grace is that by not being under the law we far better uphold it and by grace and trusting in Christ and relying on the Holy Spirit to sanctify us we live far more as God would have us live and that is an integral part of rhe Gospel of grace

It is Christ's responsibility to change us, not our own if we put our faith in him to do it, and faith in Christ cannot be said to go unrewarded

But Christianity is a journey if you like. We come to God broken sinners, steeped in sin(I admit I did)
We are yet without strength, but by faith in Christ we become stronger and our feet are placed on firm ground by Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit

Then there comes a time when God inevitably wants us to go on with him, take up our individual cross and follow after his son. We are not expected immediately upon conversion to do this, but as we grow stronger, so more is expected. You woud not ask an infant to walk five miles, but you may once that infant has grown, matured and become stronger
And it is a fact that for some they do not want to then go on and do the work required of them and give God what he requires from their life from the heart.
For many of them(and I do not say all) they then fall back in their minds to grace without responsibility and this is what they preach, and that is not the truth of the Gospel of grace.

Grace that does not set people free and give them much victory over sin in their life is not the grace of the Bible
And it is not the truth of true grace that someone can become a Christian and not show any change for the better in their lives for year after year, biblically speaking that is impossible, and that is what people need to accept. Christ did not die for sinners so they would remain steeped in the sin they were in at conversion, he died to set them free. And if there is no change in an individual over a CONSIDERABLE LENGTRH OF TIME they are not living in grace.
That is not being said to condemn anyone, but a belief that there is power in the cross of Christ, and if that power is not seen to bring results then the individual is not living in true grace

I Am reminded of this quote from Paul:

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

A legalist has no father to cry to. All he has is fear

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People perish for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. You CAN lose it or the Word of God would not say that He could erase your name from the book of life. The WORD says that He will NOT erase it IF you are an overcomer. This is reality. He Gives us the oppotunity which we can turn our backs on even after believing....the devil believes, remember? THere are many who believe in Christ and are even committed to Him, but they do not DO the word, they do not overcome, they are NOT CONQUERERS. The BRIDE will be pure and strong, not weak and only hoping. She will be DOING and OVERCOMING.

"We then need to ABIDE in HIM. " Many THINK they abide in Him, but in reality they do not. Their name will be erased.

Maggie

There is a difference between mere belief and a true faith. Mere belief will not save you. James makes this clear. A person who has true faith will never depart. Scripture is clear on this matter.

 

[Vladimir_Ukr]

How can someone lose their salvation? How does someone know if they've lost their salvation.

Yes, we can. I only wanna to add here:
They went out from us, but they did
not really belong to us. For if they had
belonged to us, they would have
remained with us; but their going
showed that none of them belonged to
us.
1st John(2:19)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, we can. I only wanna to add here:
They went out from us, but they did
not really belong to us. For if they had
belonged to us, they would have
remained with us; but their going
showed that none of them belonged to
us.
1st John(2:19)

Not to be mean, But the verse you posted contradicted what you said. Did you mean to say no we can't?. Not really belonging to us means they were never a part of the church. Which means they were never saved to begin with. Otherwise they would have been a part of the church (spiritual) at one time.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

They how could they ever have been saved in the first place then? They could not have placed their faith in an incomplete gospel and be saved now could they?



Thats the problem with the legalistic Gospel. No one can live up to the law. Even people who realy try to give up a sin habit and struggle and eventually give up because they think they could never be saved, because they do not match up to the law. so why try.. Instead of learning to trust Christ, and getting help from a brother or sister and seeing victory. they don;t try, because why bother. You can't live up to the law. so you could never be saved. Well none of us can live according to the law. We will all fail. The difference is those who trust to Christ come to God like they come to their forgiving father, and admit they made a mistake. But will keep trying to over come this. and ask God for help. Vs those who come to God thinking he is a slave driver and will never forgive them. so why bother.
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Most churches preach the cross and that Jesus forgives passt sin. That gospel has been preached by numerous churches throughout the centuries. Biut how many churches teach today that sin is a choice and that through the pressence and power of the Holy Spirit we need not fullfill the temptation idulge in the lusts of flesh which the scriptures so clearly teach? Not many.

This is why so many "believers" today are enslaved by sin such as lust, porn addiction, fornication, fear, anxiety, depression, anger, frustration, self conscienceness, the list goes on. The modern church looks and acts just like the world and nothing like the church of the bible. Could it be because the church today preaches a weak anemic gospel? I believe it is.

If your answer is true my friend, that a person can not be saved by hearing half the gospel, then you have just indicted the vast majority of believers out there.