"Reformed" "continuationists" and Gutless Gracers

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

lol i'm still trying to figure out which kind you are. like there are Calvinist and Hyper Calvinist. I have a feeling that there are Cessationist and Hyper cessationist too, but i'll keep researching my theory on that

1. believes the offices of Apostle and prophet no longer works but was only for the foundation of the church (doesn't bother me much since I haven't meet anyone claiming those titles that I would agree with, most tell me its not that important)

2. affirms the above and continues to say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer given either. speaks out especially the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and miracles ( I believe this is because of the false manifestions that are running rampant in the world they do not have a clear understanding what Biblical tongues, prophecy and miracles are.)

anyway gotta go ttyl later

gotta do Hurricane Irene preps and stock on food (lol feels funny but we really are out of bread and milk

)

zone · Aug 25, 2011

THE TORONTO BLESSING

Toronto Blessing

~

Toronto Blessing
One of several current Renewal and Revival movements. Controversial for its connections to Word/Faith teachers, the so-called "Kansas City Prophets," its adherence to various Latter Rain doctrines, and its unbiblical practices.

Note: Not all renewal/revival movements, and not all churches in renewal or revival adhere to all or any of these teachings.
- Articles -

Renewal and Revival movements You'll find many resources listed under this Apologetics Index listing.

Sugar and Vinegar Section within the Apologetics Index with articles and editorials relating to various Renewal and Revival issues.

My Testimony The publisher of Apologetics Index addresses concerns regarding the Toronto Blessing Movement
- Mailing List -

AI-Renewal The Apologetics Index's own mailing list. A place where we discuss a variety of contemporary Christian issues, with a primary focus on Biblical apologetics and how they apply to movements, doctrines, daily Christian life and current affairs. Also addresses aspects of the controversial renewal and revival movements.
For more lists, see Renewal and Revival Movements
- See Also -
See also:
» Bob Jones
» Kingdom Now Theology << DOMINIONISM
» Latter Rain Theology
» Paul Cain
» Renewal and Revival Movements - Modern » Rick Joyner
- Sites -
» See the resources listed here

Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - Toronto Blessing, Trinity, Twelve Tribes, Communities, Two-by-Twos, Etc.

~

Latter Rain...hmmm...where have we heard that before?

THE CALL--Rick Joyner
A Review by Kevin Reeves, 5/01

The last decade has seen a tremendous explosion of self-proclaimed “prophets”, who have claimed such fantastic experiences as journeys to heaven, trips to hell, and lengthy, intimate dialogue with the risen Lord Jesus. To list every one who has claimed these privileges, great and small, would take a volume. Purported dreams and visions have grabbed center stage, enthralling multitudes of sincere Christians to the point where even common sense is overridden in favor of the sensational.
While God certainly has in the past moved in ways that defy natural human understanding, and can indeed continue to do so, it should go without saying that He does not fear scrutiny. If a miracle, dream, vision, or prophecy comes forth from any quarter of the Christian world, it needs to be tested. For both the integrity of the name of Christ and the safety of His flock, all such experiences must be verified as to their source. Without this security, the sheep wander in the wilderness, torn by every beast of the field. The shepherd who will not take the oversight has relinquished his God-given responsibility and has become a mere hireling (John 10:12-13). The church member who will not heed the warnings in the Scriptures about deception among the elect will himself fall prey to the fraudulent (Acts 20:28-31).

~

A.W. Tozer said, "I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation, shining like the sun, were to come and offer me some new truth, I'd ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I'd bow him out and say, ' I'm awfully sorry. You don't bring any references with you' ".

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

yeah I never thought you were demon possessed... well at one point when we first meet I might have but not recently... did I say something to imply you were?

yeah I know about the "company" mine have left me alone for a while, I think.....Well I pray God keep them away anyways.

mmm I'll ck out the article and yeah i'm still trying figure out what that means exactly

"the foundation laid once for all time 2000 years ago"

anyways I'm just going to trust Jesus to take care of it and do my best to encourage and support my brethren and stand firm in what little truth God has taught me and shine what light I can with my words, my life and my love.

I want to say your a wonderful woman Zone and if I don't get to say it tomorrow I wanted you to know I appreciate your friendship and the time you have taken to converse with me. Thanks. love you!

superdave5221 · Aug 25, 2011

The following is from The Faith Once For All by Jack Cottrell, College Press Publishing, Joplin Mo. 2010, pp. 303-304. As you can see, the author is cessationist. The highlighting is mine.

If the Holy Spirit is not giving miraculous gifts today, how can we explain the phenomena that occur in pentecostal, charismatic and third-wave contexts? A detailed answer to this question is not possible here, but I will summarize my convictions.

Obviously some of the phenomena are not truly miraculous. Sometimes they are staged, and sometimes they are psychological in origin. But in my judgment a good number of the phenomena are definitely miraculous, manifesting supernatural powers and requiring a supernatural origin. It is my conviction that their origin is demonic, paralleling similar phenomena in occult circles. They are the result of satanic deception. One evidence of this is the procedure known as the "testing of tongues," wherein the source of the tongue is shown to be demonic. (See Ensign and Howe, Appendix J, "Speaking in Tongues and the Testing of Tongues.")

Is such satanic activity possible in the life of a God-fearing person? Yes. We have already seen that it is a fallacy to think that demons cannot work through Christians. But why would Satan want to empower Christians to do miraculous things that often have good and beneficial results, such as healing the sick? Because this helps him all the more to deceive those who have not received "the love of the truth" (2 Thess 2:9-12; 2 Cor 11:13-14). Where miraculous powers are present, dependence upon and fascination with such experiences can easily replace a commitment to truth and sound doctrine. This opens the way for a new kind of ecumenical movement, where unity is based on experience.

I must stress that those who are wielding such miraculous powers are not deliberately cooperating with Satan. Usually they truly believe that their powers are from Holy Spirit. Thus they are victims, not villains; but they are in danger of losing a spiritual battle they do not even know they are fighting. pp. 303-304 [end of quote]

The bibliography reference for Ensign and Howe for those wanting to research further on "testing of tongues" is:

Ensign, Grayson; and Edward Howe, Counseling and Demonization: The Missing Link. Amarillo, TX: Recovery Publications, 1989.

zone · Aug 25, 2011

AnandaHya said:

lol i'm still trying to figure out which kind you are. like there are Calvinist and Hyper Calvinist. I have a feeling that there are Cessationist and Hyper cessationist too, but i'll keep researching my theory on that

1. believes the offices of Apostle and prophet no longer works but was only for the foundation of the church (doesn't bother me much since I haven't meet anyone claiming those titles that I would agree with, most tell me its not that important)

2. affirms the above and continues to say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer given either. speaks out especially the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and miracles ( I believe this is because of the false manifestions that are running rampant in the world they do not have a clear understanding what Biblical tongues, prophecy and miracles are.)

hyper cessationist?
dunno what that is.

# 1 is true

# 2 that we see today has ZERO to do what the gifts really were. they ceased also.

zone · Aug 25, 2011

superdave5221 said:

The following is from The Faith Once For All by Jack Cottrell, College Press Publishing, Joplin Mo. 2010, pp. 303-304. As you can see, the author is cessationist. The highlighting is mine.

If the Holy Spirit is not giving miraculous gifts today, how can we explain the phenomena that occur in pentecostal, charismatic and third-wave contexts? A detailed answer to this question is not possible here, but I will summarize my convictions.

Obviously some of the phenomena are not truly miraculous. Sometimes they are staged, and sometimes they are psychological in origin. But in my judgment a good number of the phenomena are definitely miraculous, manifesting supernatural powers and requiring a supernatural origin. It is my conviction that their origin is demonic, paralleling similar phenomena in occult circles. They are the result of satanic deception. One evidence of this is the procedure known as the "testing of tongues," wherein the source of the tongue is shown to be demonic. (See Ensign and Howe, Appendix J, "Speaking in Tongues and the Testing of Tongues.")

Is such satanic activity possible in the life of a God-fearing person? Yes. We have already seen that it is a fallacy to think that demons cannot work through Christians. But why would Satan want to empower Christians to do miraculous things that often have good and beneficial results, such as healing the sick? Because this helps him all the more to deceive those who have not received "the love of the truth" (2 Thess 2:9-12; 2 Cor 11:13-14). Where miraculous powers are present, dependence upon and fascination with such experiences can easily replace a commitment to truth and sound doctrine. This opens the way for a new kind of ecumenical movement, where unity is based on experience.

I must stress that those who are wielding such miraculous powers are not deliberately cooperating with Satan. Usually they truly believe that their powers are from Holy Spirit. Thus they are victims, not villains; but they are in danger of losing a spiritual battle they do not even know they are fighting. pp. 303-304 [end of quote]

The bibliography reference for Ensign and Howe for those wanting to research further on "testing of tongues" is:

Ensign, Grayson; and Edward Howe, Counseling and Demonization: The Missing Link. Amarillo, TX: Recovery Publications, 1989.

REP

Strangelove · Aug 25, 2011

superdave5221 said:

The following is from The Faith Once For All by Jack Cottrell, College Press Publishing, Joplin Mo. 2010, pp. 303-304. As you can see, the author is cessationist. The highlighting is mine.

If the Holy Spirit is not giving miraculous gifts today, how can we explain the phenomena that occur in pentecostal, charismatic and third-wave contexts? A detailed answer to this question is not possible here, but I will summarize my convictions.

Obviously some of the phenomena are not truly miraculous. Sometimes they are staged, and sometimes they are psychological in origin. But in my judgment a good number of the phenomena are definitely miraculous, manifesting supernatural powers and requiring a supernatural origin. It is my conviction that their origin is demonic, paralleling similar phenomena in occult circles. They are the result of satanic deception. One evidence of this is the procedure known as the "testing of tongues," wherein the source of the tongue is shown to be demonic. (See Ensign and Howe, Appendix J, "Speaking in Tongues and the Testing of Tongues.")

Is such satanic activity possible in the life of a God-fearing person? Yes. We have already seen that it is a fallacy to think that demons cannot work through Christians. But why would Satan want to empower Christians to do miraculous things that often have good and beneficial results, such as healing the sick? Because this helps him all the more to deceive those who have not received "the love of the truth" (2 Thess 2:9-12; 2 Cor 11:13-14). Where miraculous powers are present, dependence upon and fascination with such experiences can easily replace a commitment to truth and sound doctrine. This opens the way for a new kind of ecumenical movement, where unity is based on experience.

I must stress that those who are wielding such miraculous powers are not deliberately cooperating with Satan. Usually they truly believe that their powers are from Holy Spirit. Thus they are victims, not villains; but they are in danger of losing a spiritual battle they do not even know they are fighting. pp. 303-304 [end of quote]

The bibliography reference for Ensign and Howe for those wanting to research further on "testing of tongues" is:

Ensign, Grayson; and Edward Howe, Counseling and Demonization: The Missing Link. Amarillo, TX: Recovery Publications, 1989.

Thats a fascinating angle....thanks Dave.

I still dont think satan has the power to imbue people with miraculous powers but its an interesting one to ponder.

He certainly has the power to DECEIVE them into THINKING they have miraculous powers.

zone · Aug 25, 2011

AnandaHya said:

i love you too.

"the foundation laid once for all time 2000 years ago"

the miraculous apostolic powers (signs of authority) and offices ended.

the gifts listed in Corinthians are Historical Narrative. they ceased. they were partial.

easy.

superdave5221 · Aug 25, 2011

Strangelove said:

Yeah, I am not sure I agree with author 100% on that one either. But it was an interesting take on it.

zone · Aug 25, 2011

Strangelove said:

Doc's Pharaoh's magicians had "powers"

its witchcraft. not Divine power.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

don't forget the bad guy's prophet will be able to make fire "come down from heaven" in the sight of men.

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

superdave5221 said:

well people can do signs and wonders and have them come true and still be false it says it in the Bible in these passages:

Deuteronomy 13

Punishment of Apostates

1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

sorry i haven't read the article but that kind of popped out lol back to the beginning then...(doing laundry ,yuck)

WeStand · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

No Zone; unless i clearly don't understand English, i could have swore that DeadFlesh stated he loves you. Even i beleive that, its you that doesn't.

And this is preciely what we hate; we hate how you twist other peoples words, in an attempt to dis-credit their guenuine love of Christ

Nobody knows it all, save one of course. If we are going to learn and edify each other, its not going to happen through attacking peoples faith.

When we disagree with another; it would be nice if we ALL used our christian manners; and inquired of the other person, How did you come to this conclusion? Then after hearing them out, if you feel they still need to be corrected, go ahead and do so, only with christian love, not spite. You never know, you may even learn something from the other person, that you had not considered previously.

By the way, Glowing passed away a long time ago; the avatar says WeStand, unless you prefer to stay on old terms, and then you would be Puglia if i recall corectly.

I'd get into your British Israelism garbage again, if i thought there was any point to it, but i've explained this 3 times now out of Gods Word, and you refuse to beleive God. Not my concern anymore.

Other than that, all the best to you Zone in your faith (hope in Christ,) it will get you through lots i assure you. And i do love you in Christ as well, just don't care much for your human personality. To each their own, I guess

Forever in Christ

zone · Aug 25, 2011

WeStand said:

right....once upon a time there was a member....i don't recall ever getting an apology for that kind of "love".

people can say they love me, call me a liar and tool of the devil in the same post.

that's okay. because: IT'S SUNSHINE AND FLOWERS ALL AROUND glowing.

peace and love to you.

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

lol I'm not that righteous, if I think you are a tool of the devil I might recognize the fact God loves everyone but I'm not God and can't really say I do but that perhaps that I should....

I read the Neo Montanism article Zone and that is a lot of names. Don't think I can keep half of them in my head. I'll bookmark it for later reference if I ever need to trace someone's demonic stronghold to its root cause. ... though i would have to research and pray about all the names though.

seriously, I know a lot of people who like Joyce Meyers. Is there anything about her ministry besides that she is a woman that is unbibilical?.... wait i'll do a quick Google search I'm sure critics have posted it online....

Montanism has an interesting history.....

"Scholars are divided as to when Montanus first began his prophetic activity, having chosen dates varying from c. AD 135 to as late as AD 177.[2] Montanus was a recent convert when he first began prophesying supposedly during the proconsulate of Gratus in a village in Mysia named Ardabau. No proconsul named Gratus or village named Ardabau have been identified, however.[3] Some accounts claim that before his conversion to Christianity, Montanus was a priest of Apollo or Cybele.[4] He believed he was a prophet of God and that the Paraclete spoke through him. Montanus proclaimed the towns of Pepuza and Tymion in west-central Phrygia as the site of the New Jerusalem, making the larger Pepuza his headquarters.[5]
He had two female colleagues, Prisca (sometimes called Priscilla) and Maximilla, who likewise claimed the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Their popularity even exceeded Montanus' own.[6] "The Three" spoke in ecstatic visions and urged their followers to fast and pray, so that they might share these revelations. Their followers claimed they received the prophetic gift from the prophets Quadratus and Ammia of Philadelphia, figures believed to have been part of a line of prophetic succession stretching all the way back to Agabus and the daughters of Philip the Evangelist.[7] In time, the New Prophecy spread from Montanus' native Phrygia across the Christian world, to Africa and Gaul.
The response to the New Prophecy split the Christian communities, and the more orthodox clergy mostly fought to suppress it. It was believed that the Phrygian prophets were possessed by evil spirits, and both Maximilla and Priscilla were the targets of failed exorcisms.[8] The churches of Asia Minor pronounced the prophecies profane and excommunicated its adherents.[9] Around 177, Apollinarius, Bishop of Hierapolis, presided over a synod which condemned the New Prophecy.[10] The leaders of the churches of Lyon and Vienne in Gaul responded to the New Prophecy in 177. Their decision was communicated to the churches in Asia and Eleuterus, the Bishop of Rome, but it is not known what this consisted of, only that it was "prudent and most orthodox".[11] It is likely they called for moderation in dealing with the movement. There was real doubt at Rome, and its bishop (either Eleuterus or Victor I) even wrote letters in support of Montanism, although he was later persuaded by Praxeas to recall them.[12] In 193, the Anonymous Writer found the church at Ancyra in Galatia torn in two, and he opposed the "false prophecy" there.[13] Eventually, Montanist teachings came to be regarded as heresy by the orthodox Church for a number of reasons.
There was never a uniform excommunication of New Prophecy adherents, and in many places they maintained their standing within the orthodox community. This was the case at Carthage. While not without tension, the church there avoided schism over the issue. There were women prophesying at Carthage, and prophecy was considered a genuine charism. It was the responsibility of the council of elders to test all prophecy and to determine genuine revelation.[14] The best-known defender of the New Prophecy was undoubtedly Tertullian, who believed that the claims of Montanus were genuine beginning circa. 207.[15] He believed in the validity of the New Prophecy and admired the movement's discipline and ascetic standards. A common misconception is that Tertullian decisively left the orthodox church and joined a separate Montanist sect; in fact, he remained a catholic Christian.[15]
Although what became the orthodox Christian church prevailed against Montanism within a few generations, inscriptions in the Tembris valley of northern Phrygia, dated between 249 and 279, openly proclaim their allegiance to the New Prophecy. A letter of Jerome to Marcella, written in 385, refutes the claims of Montanists that had been troubling her.[16] A group of "Tertullianists" may have continued at Carthage. The anonymous author of Praedestinatus records that a preacher came to Rome in 388 where he made many converts and obtained the use of a church for his congregation on the grounds that the martyrs to whom it was dedicated had been Montanists.[17] He was obliged to flee after the victory of Theodosius I. Augustine records that the Tertullianist group dwindled to almost nothing in his own time, and finally was reconciled to the church and handed over their basilica.[18] It is not certain whether these Tertullianists were in all respects "Montanist" or not. In the 6th century, on the orders of the emperor Justinian, John of Ephesus led an expedition to Pepuza to destroy the Montanist shrine there, which was based on the tombs of Montanus, Priscilla and Maximilla."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

mmm

question: How do we know that Emperor Justinian was doing the work of God by destroying their tombs?

WeStand · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

Funny that you should bring up that apology that i almost owe you. This was the 3rd post that i henpecked, and the first 2 had that apology in them. Wouldn't go through.

The one without did

i'd give you one now, but i don't want to lose the post. You see, i beleive that you need to humble yourself, and apologize first, for judging so many peoples faults, as we ALL have them. Rather than pick on the one obvious fallacy of ones teachings (Pastors) or numerous fallacies, why not try and look for the good in that person, and point out the parts this person has right, in their effort to serve.

At least then, we would receive the good part, who needs to hear more junk, No one person has the same crosses to bear, and no one knows it all, we were instructed to work together, not against each other.

Forever in Christ

zone · Aug 25, 2011

WeStand said:

as in British-Israelism?
its rotten to the core.

so dear, i won't be making group apologies based on your opinion.
an apology you almost owe is nada.

i already forgave you. but we don't have to be buddies.

but have great day!!!

zone · Aug 25, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Joyce Meyers:

Joyce Meyer teaches that Jesus did not pay for sin upon the cross, but actually went to the torments of hell and made atonement there. The following quote is from Joyce Meyer's 1991 booklet on being born again which is worded differently in the 1996-updated edition.

"During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin...He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme...Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus...He was resurrected from the dead 3Ú4 the first born-again man" (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make: A Complete And Thorough Understanding Of What It Means To Be Born Again, 1991, pages 35-36, Joyce Meyer)

http://forgottenword.org/meyers.html

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

Emperor Justinian seems like an interesting man of history to study. I think I'll try and get a copy of his book after I finish reading Bill Clinton's autobiography...

Emperor Justinian, c.482-565

"BOOK ONE
Justice is the constant and perpetual wish to render every one his due.
1. Jurisprudence is the knowledge of things divine and human; the science of the just and the unjust.
2. Having explained these general terms, we think we shall commence our exposition of the law of the Roman people most advantageously, if we pursue at first a plain and easy path, and then proceed to explain particular details with the utmost care and exact ness. For, if at the outset we overload the mind of the student, while yet new to the subject and unable to bear much, with a multitude and variety of topics, one of two things will happen—we shall either cause him wholly to abandon his studies, or, after great toil, and often after great distrust of himself (the most frequent stumbling-block in the way of youth), we shall at last conduct him to the point, to which, if he had been led by an easier road, he might, without great labour, and without any distrust of his own powers, have been sooner conducted.
3. The maxims of law are these: to live honestly, to hurt no one, to give every one his due.
4. The study of law is divided into two branches; that of public and that of private law. Public law regards the government of the Roman Empire; private law, the interest of individuals. We are now to treat of the latter, which is composed of three elements, and consists of precepts belonging to natural law, to the law of nations, and to the civil law.

[Source: The Institutes of Justinian, trans. Thomas C. Sandars (London: Longmans, Green, 1874), pp. 1-7.]"

sorry thinking out loud and off topic but I think I'll share it anyways

AnandaHya · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

Joyce Meyers:

Joyce Meyer teaches that Jesus did not pay for sin upon the cross, but actually went to the torments of hell and made atonement there. The following quote is from Joyce Meyer's 1991 booklet on being born again which is worded differently in the 1996-updated edition.

"During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin...He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme...Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus...He was resurrected from the dead 3Ú4 the first born-again man" (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make: A Complete And Thorough Understanding Of What It Means To Be Born Again, 1991, pages 35-36, Joyce Meyer)

Joyce Meyer - False Preacher

WOW really? hadn't read that one... mmm, I'll email my friend and see what she thinks. She loaned me some audio cassettes with her preaching and it seemed ok.

Strangelove · Aug 25, 2011

zone said:

False signsd and lying wonders.

(2 Thessalonians 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Clarke:

With all power - Πασῃ δυναμει· All kinds of miracles, like the Egyptian magicians; and signs and lying wonders: the word lying may be applied to the whole of these; they were lying miracles, lying signs, and lying wonders; only appearances of what was real, and done to give credit to his presumption and imposture. Whereas God sent his messengers with real miracles, real signs, and real wonders; such Satan cannot produce.

Anyone fancy bluebeam for the fire coming down from heaven?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTQVtyh4XkI&feature=player_embedded#![/video]

"Reformed" "continuationists" and Gutless Gracers

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