RAPTURE

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May 3, 2009
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The Rapture" is a term that is used by some christians to describe a belief that at some point in time Jesus will come, and all true believers will literally rise up and meet Him in the air and be ferried away to heaven. All non-believers will remain on the earth to be dealt with later. The Apostolic Church teaches that Jesus will come and judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will suffer eternal ****ation. No one will be left on the earth.

Belief in such a rapture was first taught in the late 1800’s. Some what surprising there is scant agreement among rapture believers as to what exactly will happen or when. One of the passages used to support belief in the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Verse 17 says, "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This simply speaks about the end of the world when true believers will be saved. Paul's purpose is not to explain the judgment of the living and the dead, but rather Paul is assuring believers that the dead will participate in the Second Coming of Christ. Notice what the first and last verses of the passage say: "But we would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep…therefore, comfort one another with these words." The words "caught up in the clouds" are used to illustrate how quickly things will transform at the Second Coming of Christ: "We shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

Matthew 24:36-44 is also used by some to support belief in the Rapture. It reads in part, "Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left." What thismeans that the righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will be left for destruction (Hell). The conclusion of the passage (verses 45-51) makes this clear: "Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has set over his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites. There men will weep and gnash their teeth." Whenever the term "weep and gnash their teeth" appears in Scripture, it refers to those who are in Hell.

Note well that verse 45 begins with the words "who then." This shows us that we are still on the same subject as we were in verses 36-44.This is significant because it illustrates that on the appointed day the righteous are being saved and the unrighteous are going to hell. So, who does that leave on earth? No one.

If we take all of the verses of Scripture that deal with this issue we find that the Rapture is simply not possible. Consider the following:

Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two;whereas The Rapture requires a second coming, (the Rapture); and a third coming (the end of the world). Some try to deal with this problem by claiming that the Rapture is not the Second Coming because we meet Jesus in the air and not on the earth. But even the verses used to support the Rapture such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 speak of it as "the coming", which indicates that it is a coming and a singular event:

1 Thessalonians 4:15: "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep."
Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of man."
1 Corinthians 15:22-23: "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ."
1 Thessalonians 2:19: "For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at His coming?"

Jesus must stay in heaven until that time. That leaves no time for the Rapture before the end of the world:

Acts 3:19-21: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from old."

When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth. He won't be hovering over it, as the Rapture requires:

Acts 1:9-11: "And when He had said this, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead. Once again if all are going to be judged that would leave no one on earth:

Matthew 25:31-46: "When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and He will place the sheep at His right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at His right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'…Then He will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'..]And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

In conclusion the Scriptures teach us the following:

Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two.
Jesus must stay in heaven until that time.
When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth.
When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead.

In John 16:13, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His apostles into all truth. And yet we find no support for the Rapture in the scriptures. Likewise, the writings of the early Church fathers are silent on the issue. Since some of them were contemporaries of the apostles, we can reasonably assume that they would have known about the Rapture if it were a part of the deposit of faith. The Rapture is also not mentioned in any of the creeds. As we noted earlier, the idea of the Rapture was first taught in the late 1800's. If the apostles and their successors were ignorant of the Rapture for eighteen centuries, it would mean that Jesus lied in John 16. That in itself rules out the Rapture.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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The pretrib rapture is a farce, an anti scriptural fairy tale.
 
May 3, 2009
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The pretrib rapture is a farce, an anti scriptural fairy tale.
I agree with Augustine and, indirectly, with the amillennialists. The Aposotlic position has historically been "amillennial" though Apostolic Christians do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism".

With respect to the rapture, I certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though I don't use rapture to describe this event.

A balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).
 
Jan 31, 2009
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If we take all of the verses of Scripture that deal with this issue we find that the Rapture is simply not possible. Consider the following:

Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two;whereas The Rapture requires a second coming, (the Rapture); and a third coming (the end of the world). Some try to deal with this problem by claiming that the Rapture is not the Second Coming because we meet Jesus in the air and not on the earth. But even the verses used to support the Rapture such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 speak of it as "the coming", which indicates that it is a coming and a singular event:



When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth. He won't be hovering over it, as the Rapture requires:

.

Hey dude again you err not knowing the scipture or as normal you just like to twist them to fit your belief.

Let's look at the scriptures you referred to in 1thes, 4:13-18
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Here you have erred For it says nothing about Jesus coming back to the earth but rather we go up in the clouds to be with Him, you should really read the scriptures you are going to use a a reference Dude to see what they say before you go off on a false doctrine, or trying to prove A doctrine is false, nothing about His second coming in these scriptures, and also this is not when He takes out the evil ones to send them to hell For it clearly says that even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 

NoahsDad

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2006
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And.........their off!
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Hey dude again you err not knowing the scipture or as normal you just like to twist them to fit your belief.

Let's look at the scriptures you referred to in 1thes, 4:13-18
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Here you have erred For it says nothing about Jesus coming back to the earth but rather we go up in the clouds to be with Him, you should really read the scriptures you are going to use a a reference Dude to see what they say before you go off on a false doctrine, or trying to prove A doctrine is false, nothing about His second coming in these scriptures, and also this is not when He takes out the evil ones to send them to hell For it clearly says that even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
You err verse 15 clearly say that this is the coming of the Lord. There is only 2 comings of the Lord one when He was born and the other when He returns to earth. So the error is on your part this is referring to the 2nd coming in which the Lord WILL reach the earth. As He is on His way we will be caught up and received into Himself before He touches down.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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You err verse 15 clearly say that this is the coming of the Lord. There is only 2 comings of the Lord one when He was born and the other when He returns to earth. So the error is on your part this is referring to the 2nd coming in which the Lord WILL reach the earth. As He is on His way we will be caught up and received into Himself before He touches down.
but it never says that He touches down as in revelation on the last day but rather
4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and this has to be just christians because wewill be with him forewver in the last day the sheep are separated from the goats

Lu 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.Lu 17:22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.Lu 17:23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.Lu 17:24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
believe what you will you are going to anyway.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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but it never says that He touches down as in revelation on the last day but rather
4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and this has to be just christians because wewill be with him forewver in the last day the sheep are separated from the goats

Lu 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.Lu 17:22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.Lu 17:23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.Lu 17:24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
believe what you will you are going to anyway.
It certainly does say He doesn't and since we know He does through other passages as you admit, then we know He does.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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but it never says that He touches down as in revelation on the last day but rather
4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and this has to be just christians because wewill be with him forewver in the last day the sheep are separated from the goats

Lu 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.Lu 17:22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.Lu 17:23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.Lu 17:24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
believe what you will you are going to anyway.
this just hit me and I want to point this out that is proof there are two separate events 1 the. 4:13-18 say brethen talking to the Christian those that are asleep in christ shall be taken up and we ( christians which remain shall be taken up to join them in the air just Christian are taken in 1 thes , in rev on the day of the Lord look

Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This event talks about both the lost and the saved thus has to be a separate event from thes. 4:13-18
 
Apr 23, 2009
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this just hit me and I want to point this out that is proof there are two separate events 1 the. 4:13-18 say brethen talking to the Christian those that are asleep in christ shall be taken up and we ( christians which remain shall be taken up to join them in the air just Christian are taken in 1 thes , in rev on the day of the Lord look

Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This event talks about both the lost and the saved thus has to be a separate event from thes. 4:13-18
Should have kept that to yourself, it shows hoe far off you really are. The event in 1st Thess 4 although it is indeed posttribulation, it is also premillennial. The event in Revelation 20 it after the Millennium. ;) So yes the 2nd coming/ rapture and the white throne Judgment are two separate event separated by 1,000 years, but that in now way proves the pretrib rapture.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#11
In John 16:13, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His apostles into all truth. And yet we find no support for the Rapture in the scriptures. Likewise, the writings of the early Church fathers are silent on the issue. Since some of them were contemporaries of the apostles, we can reasonably assume that they would have known about the Rapture if it were a part of the deposit of faith. The Rapture is also not mentioned in any of the creeds. As we noted earlier, the idea of the Rapture was first taught in the late 1800's. If the apostles and their successors were ignorant of the Rapture for eighteen centuries, it would mean that Jesus lied in John 16. That in itself rules out the Rapture.
Explain this promise:

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Where is the Father? In Heaven.

Where is the Father's house? In Heaven.

Where is Jesus now? In Heaven.

Where is the place Jesus promised to bring us to? In Heaven.

Judgment must fall on the House of God first.

Matthew 21: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


1 Peter 4: 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Notice the supper for the first watch only?

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Luke 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Because of false prophets, very few will find the faith before His appearing.

The foolish virgins, those that followed a stranger's voice, those that climb up another way instead of coming to the Son for life will be known as workers of iniquity. Every child God the Father receives, He will chasten and scourge so that they may be partakers of His holiness for Jesus will finish His work even on those left behind as they will be one fold and one shepherd as He will lose none.

Just as Jesus taught excommunication, so will judgment falling on the House of God will serve.. to the destruction of the flesh. Even the churches was taught this.

1 Corinthians 5:4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

How can the rapture not be seen as serving to that end for the wayward believers to go through the great tribulation?

Revelation 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Those that are ready and found abiding in Him shall not go through the great tribulation. Again, the great tribulation serves as chastening the wayward.

Revelation 3: 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
2 Timothy 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

So that is why the rapture is before the great tribulation as it is judgment falling on the House of God due to the falling away of the faith which is why the despensing of the Gosple went back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses, after the rapture.

Many may get the concept of the rapture wrong, but judgment is coming. The call is to be ready and trsuting Jesus to be found abiding in Him.

Did you noticed that not one church in Revelation was addressed to the Church of Rome as if that was the Church? Neither was any of those churches addressed were told to cling to the Church of Rome to be found abiding in Him. Everything points to Jesus as all invitations points to Him to have life; not through a church. There are no means between us and Jesus for by His Words, they would be thieves.

John 10: 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

And yet there are many doors to enter in the RCC: to the priests for the forgiveness of sins.. ...to Mary, to other saints, and even to the Holy Spirit even though He is in us in prayer to act as a go between them and Jesus... to being a member of the RCC for salvation ....these practises make thieves out of all of them by His Word as they take away His glory by the offices and titles given to Jesus as the ONLY Mediator and Saviour as He is able all by Himself so He can be called Saviour.

All invitations points to Jesus in order to come to God:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

All scripture of the Good News points to Jesus to come to to have life.

John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So the indwelling Holy Spirit and the faithul witness... the faithful church aka the body of Christ will be pointing to Jesus... not to themselves.

John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Revelation 22: 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 4: 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That leaves catholicism out. It is His righteousness that brings you Home.

John 6: 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 John 2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

... which is what catholicism is.... labouring in unbelief.







 
May 3, 2009
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#12
Hey dude again you err not knowing the scipture or as normal you just like to twist them to fit your belief.

Let's look at the scriptures you referred to in 1thes, 4:13-18
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Here you have erred For it says nothing about Jesus coming back to the earth but rather we go up in the clouds to be with Him, you should really read the scriptures you are going to use a a reference Dude to see what they say before you go off on a false doctrine, or trying to prove A doctrine is false, nothing about His second coming in these scriptures, and also this is not when He takes out the evil ones to send them to hell For it clearly says that even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Hey Dude, you are ignoring Act 1:9 and Matth 25 which are completely on point as to regarding Jesus' Coming. He is coming one time. Whereas Thess which some use to support Rapture is not referring to a rapture but simply describing how quickly the Judgment will come upon us.

You approach those verses which you use to support a Preconceived Theory by imposing your preconceptions on to them. That is why you invariable read into them what you want to read into them.

If you like Rapture, fine. Enjoy your pet theory. But it is not biblcial, it is not part of Christianity.

Peace Be with You, Dude

Amen
 
May 3, 2009
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#13
Explain this promise:.

... which is what catholicism is.... labouring in unbelief.
I have no explanation for your behavior. But, a proper psychiatric professional might.

Peace Be with You.

Amen
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#14
ok going from memory here... the rapture theory , came from a young prophetess woman in scotland I believe of the catholic apostolic sect in the 1800's, who was believed to have had a vision of this rapture event. They were also prevalent in germany i think. She first came up with the vision, and people like Darby propagated the belief ever since. I guess pentecostals hooked onto the idea too because it is common belief in pentecostalism, and a pre-trib rapture is tied in with the other dubious doctrines such as end times worldwide revival , Joel's army , latter rain movements, etc etc. Whether you are catholic or protestant who believes in sola scriptura, neither can support a pre-tribulation rapture or twice-rapture event.

But then again , what's the difference between protestants making up new doctrines that are not found in scripture and introducing them to christianity , and catholics introducing new beliefs or practices over the centuaries that did not exist in the first 300 years of christianity? Although it is alleged as such...
 
May 3, 2009
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#15
But then again , what's the difference between protestants making up new doctrines that are not found in scripture and introducing them to christianity , and catholics introducing new beliefs or practices over the centuaries that did not exist in the first 300 years of christianity? Although it is alleged as such...

Pray tell, what new doctrines? Apostolic Christians develop doctrine to clarify and further elucidate the Truth. But the kernels, the essence, the foundation, of those doctrines are found in written and oral Tradition. Remember, the Church is the Teaching Authority.

The Apostolic Church--Catholic or Eastern Orthodox--has not introduced any NEW doctrines.

Perhaps you should start a THREAD about these so-called NEW doctrines.

Always in Christ

Amen
 
R

Raeshelle

Guest
#16
DING DING DING!!! Gloves off and back to your corners!!!
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#17
Explain this promise:

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Where is the Father? In Heaven.

Where is the Father's house? In Heaven.

Where is Jesus now? In Heaven.

Where is the place Jesus promised to bring us to? In Heaven.

Judgment must fall on the House of God first.

Matthew 21: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


1 Peter 4: 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Notice the supper for the first watch only?

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Luke 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Because of false prophets, very few will find the faith before His appearing.

The foolish virgins, those that followed a stranger's voice, those that climb up another way instead of coming to the Son for life will be known as workers of iniquity. Every child God the Father receives, He will chasten and scourge so that they may be partakers of His holiness for Jesus will finish His work even on those left behind as they will be one fold and one shepherd as He will lose none.

Just as Jesus taught excommunication, so will judgment falling on the House of God will serve.. to the destruction of the flesh. Even the churches was taught this.

1 Corinthians 5:4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

How can the rapture not be seen as serving to that end for the wayward believers to go through the great tribulation?

Revelation 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Those that are ready and found abiding in Him shall not go through the great tribulation. Again, the great tribulation serves as chastening the wayward.

Revelation 3: 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
2 Timothy 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

So that is why the rapture is before the great tribulation as it is judgment falling on the House of God due to the falling away of the faith which is why the despensing of the Gosple went back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses, after the rapture.

Many may get the concept of the rapture wrong, but judgment is coming. The call is to be ready and trsuting Jesus to be found abiding in Him.

Did you noticed that not one church in Revelation was addressed to the Church of Rome as if that was the Church? Neither was any of those churches addressed were told to cling to the Church of Rome to be found abiding in Him. Everything points to Jesus as all invitations points to Him to have life; not through a church. There are no means between us and Jesus for by His Words, they would be thieves.

John 10: 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

And yet there are many doors to enter in the RCC: to the priests for the forgiveness of sins.. ...to Mary, to other saints, and even to the Holy Spirit even though He is in us in prayer to act as a go between them and Jesus... to being a member of the RCC for salvation ....these practises make thieves out of all of them by His Word as they take away His glory by the offices and titles given to Jesus as the ONLY Mediator and Saviour as He is able all by Himself so He can be called Saviour.

All invitations points to Jesus in order to come to God:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

All scripture of the Good News points to Jesus to come to to have life.

John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So the indwelling Holy Spirit and the faithul witness... the faithful church aka the body of Christ will be pointing to Jesus... not to themselves.

John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Revelation 22: 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 4: 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That leaves catholicism out. It is His righteousness that brings you Home.

John 6: 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 John 2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

... which is what catholicism is.... labouring in unbelief.

There is not one thing in this post that even hints at a pretrib rapture much less proves it.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#18
There is not one thing in this post that even hints at a pretrib rapture much less proves it.
Those that hear will see it.

As for those that do not, guess they shall have to wait and see.
 
N

next_step

Guest
#19
Revelation 3,10 is a good argument but 2. Thess 3 and Rev 4 are more clear. Why people don't see it any more?

Well. Platon, Origines, Augustin, a Calvin and a Luther influenced by the philsopher Augustin who never abandoned this roman catholic church way of "exegesis".
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#20
I have no explanation for your behavior. But, a proper psychiatric professional might.

Peace Be with You.

Amen
For the opposition, you are funny. I'll let that slide and forgive you, brother.:)
 
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