christian / atheist debates in school

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Willot

Guest
#21
Hello, I'm atheistic agnostic so if you have any questions just ask me.

Oh and no argument ever ends in "Do you know what? You're right, I'm going to be a theist/atheist now"

Well, maybe you should ask them if they also dont believe in oxygen... Ive never seen it... Experiments have been done to prove that it exists but ive never seen it, so how can it be real? The same with God, we've never seen Him... So how do we know He exists? Experiments (The bible and miracles) prove that He does exist... That is enough proof for me right there.
I also facepalm at this by the way.
Mainly because of things that are so stupid I will not give them the pleasure of being addressed.
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#22
What you explained could just be something that does nothing but turns 0s into equal positives and negatives. Is that something you would call God?
It is a start to how a theist would describe God. The "something" as you put it or the "Uncaused Cause" as I put it would have the attributes of being powerful and eternal. These are two attributes commonly associated with what most theists would consider God. To be sure, there are more arguments to clarify God's character and other attributes and I would be happy to sure them. However, the one I presented is merely defining certain parameters around the "Uncaused Cause" which I label as God.

:)
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#23
Hello, I'm atheistic agnostic so if you have any questions just ask me.
Hey there! By the way, you can just use the term atheist. Atheism is just lack of belief so agnosticism is basically redundant (at least in my mind). :)

Since you offered... might as well ask a few questions that link together.

1. Do you believe that some things are absolutely morally wrong? (i.e. is mass murder absolutely morally wrong). (when I say murder I mean killing without necessary justification or cause)
2. If you answered yes to number one, how does an atheist justify objective morality? (where does it come from)
3. If you answered no to number one, what prevents you from committing mass murder?

Anyone is free to answer these questions. It relates to the Moral Argument as to God's existence.
 
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Willot

Guest
#24
Good questions. In my opinion, morals differ from person to person. For example you could see fornication (pre-marital intercourse) as being immoral, but I on the other hand, do not. I'm sure there are way more examples but that's the first one that sprung to mind.

To your question about where morals come from now.
I think that morals are socially developed. Going back to my previous example, the chances are that you believe fornication is wrong because you were brought up to believe that, I on the other hand was not.
So it all lies in upbringing and influence, in my opinion anyway.

If you have anymore questions then feel free to ask :D
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#25
Good questions. In my opinion, morals differ from person to person. For example you could see fornication (pre-marital intercourse) as being immoral, but I on the other hand, do not. I'm sure there are way more examples but that's the first one that sprung to mind.

To your question about where morals come from now.
I think that morals are socially developed. Going back to my previous example, the chances are that you believe fornication is wrong because you were brought up to believe that, I on the other hand was not.
So it all lies in upbringing and influence, in my opinion anyway.

If you have anymore questions then feel free to ask :D
Thanks for answering!

To clarify, as you believe that morals "evolve" with society, would you believe that there is nothing absolutely morally wrong about Hitler's actions? Is it just an evolutionary trait we inherited?

Also, how did we inherit this particular trait?
 
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Willot

Guest
#26
I have no idea how we've inherited the trait but I suppose you could argue that morals evolve over time not through evolutionary traits but through society.
As for Hitler, I'm sure what he was doing was moral in his eyes.
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#27
I have no idea how we've inherited the trait but I suppose you could argue that morals evolve over time not through evolutionary traits but through society.
What do you mean by through society?

As for Hitler, I'm sure what he was doing was moral in his eyes.
I would agree with you. However, the fact that Hitler viewed his actions as moral does not make them absolutely morally right, does it?

However, from an atheistic prospective, I would find it difficult to condemn Hitler's actions.
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#28
Hello, I'm atheistic agnostic so if you have any questions just ask me.
Additionally, as I am asking questions, how would you respond to the argument I presented on page 1 of this thread (the cosmological one)?

Thanks :)
 
Dec 25, 2009
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#29
Hello, I'm atheistic agnostic so if you have any questions just ask me.

Oh and no argument ever ends in "Do you know what? You're right, I'm going to be a theist/atheist now"
But arguments often contribute to someone thinking about certain subjects concerning the issue and sometimes they will eventually change their mind. I have had it happen with people I know both online and in my area.


However, the one I presented is merely defining certain parameters around the "Uncaused Cause" which I label as God.

:)
I just think that using that as a definition for God is strange. I'll give you the right to use it, but it is not what most people think of when they think of God or a god.

1. Do you believe that some things are absolutely morally wrong? (i.e. is mass murder absolutely morally wrong). (when I say murder I mean killing without necessary justification or cause)
Morality is not absolute or object, however it is not arbitrary. There are many things that the vast majority of people consider to be good or evil such as caring for a child or torturing a child respectively. However this does not make it objective or absolute. Beyond that I cannot think of any case of someone killing another person without justification or cause. Whether or not other feel this justification to be necessary or not is up to subjective interpretation.

3. If you answered no to number one, what prevents you from committing mass murder?
What prevents me from committing mass murder is that I feel it would be morally wrong to do so. Beyond that I have no reason for doing such a thing so why would I go out of my way to do something that I would gain nothing from. Due to my understanding of the world around me I can know that preforming mass murder is evil. A big part of morality is considering our impact on others. I know that I have preferences towards wanting to live and against feeling pain. These preferences aren't arbitrary and have biological basis. Since I also do not have any valid reasons for believing that my preferences are uniquely important then this obliges me not to kill or injures others to avoid hypocrisy and thus moral inconsistency. Just because not wanting to be killed or hurt is a preference I have does not lessen its relevance to morality.
 
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Willot

Guest
#30
To be honest I don't really see the point you're trying to make so I'm not going to reply in case I get the totally wrong end of the stick lol.
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#31
I'm a Christian but I also enjoy science and am myself a reformed atheist so I'll go ahead and play devil's advocate. Apologetics can be fun but in my view the role of apologetics is to show that Christianity is reasonable, not to demonstrate that it is true. The difference between the two can be ambiguous, but I wouldn't consider any of the proofs or arguments used in apologetics to be in any way conclusive.

First Cause/Kalaam Cosmological Argument
Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause

Evidence: This is simply a casual relationship. Everything that BEGINS must have a cause in our universe due to the constraints of spacetime.
First, the premise that anything at all begins to exist is an assumption. According to the idea of conservation of matter and energy, neither matter nor energy (which are the same thing) can be created or destroyed. Therefore, if it cannot be created, it cannot begin to exist.

This is not a problem for the origin of the universe if the big bang singularity is supposed to have always existed, or if something is supposed to have existed before the big bang, from which the big bang was produced. Since we don't really know anything about the big bang singularity or what might have caused it or come before it, we can only speculate.

Additionally, the basic idea of causation is itself an assumption. Randomness and events without discernable causes are generally understood to be an inherent ingredient of quantum mechanics, which is currently our best and most fundamental understanding of nature (for example, virtual particles, which pop into existence in a seemingly random fashion and quickly annihilate one another, or wave functions, which are constrained by probability but whose outcome cannot even in principle be predicted).

Ultimately, this premise is just an argument from intuition (common sense). Intuitively, because of our interactions with the world on an everyday basis, we form ideas about things like causation, space, and time. However, one of the most important lessons we have learned from the revolutions of relativity, quantum mechanics, and cosmology is that our common-sense notions about the universe are suspect and usually wrong.

Common Objections:
Q: Why doesn't God have a cause?
A: The theistic understanding is that God is eternal and does not have a beginning. Ergo, Premise 1 does not apply to God
As is often pointed out, the same can just as easily be said about the universe.

Q: What about "virtual particles?"
A: Virtual particles require space time to exist so, in essence, they have a cause and exist within space and time.
The existence of spacetime doesn't qualify as a cause for virtual particles unless it's accompanied by a mechanism for producing them.

Premise 2: The universe began to exist

Evidence: Mathematical proof by Guth et al proves that universes such as ours come from a single point when spacetime is equal to zero. "Before" that "time" the universe did not exist.
As noted above, modern cosmology actually doesn't have anything to say about "time zero." Big bang theory and related cosmological theories attempt to describe what happened beginning a fraction fo a second after the big bang and continuing on from there, but are silent when it comes to the actual "bang." This is because our best current theories are unable to resolve the existing conflicts between relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which are required to work in concert in order to understand the workings of extremely small, extremely massive objects and events (such as black holes and the very early universe).

Common Objections:
None really as most atheists accept the Big Bang Theory

Conclusion: The Universe has a Cause

Furthermore: To prevent infinite regression there must be some Uncaused Cause.
As pointed out above, this could just be said to be the universe itself.

This Uncaused Cause must be powerful enough to create the universe and is outside spacetime and therefore eternal.
But not if it is itself the universe. This is why the cosmological argument doesn't really work.

Additionally, since causation and the conservation laws are basically just assumptions, there's no reason to suppose that the universe couldn't have come into existence spontaneously, without any cause or predecessor.

It is this Uncaused Cause that we call God.
 
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Willot

Guest
#32
Oh, as for through society, I mean that we gather morals from those around us.
 
X

XxX4201337B3457XxX

Guest
#33
Oh my goodness the straw men in this thread. Disproving God is impossible, as is proving him. You simply cannot prove his existence any more than unicorns or elves, for he is unobservable. He supposedly lies in another dimension or plane of existence that has no support but can't be tested. It really depends on how much of the bible you believe is allegorical. If you were to say that Noah actually built an Arc large enough to support all land species, I can disprove that because it's physically impossible. But if you were to regress and say that it was just a metaphor, than there is nothing to debate.
 
Dec 25, 2009
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#34
Disproving God is impossible, as is proving him.
Disproving God in general is impossible, however disproving certain views of God is. If people attribute certain traits to a god and those traits can be shown to be inconsistent than it is falsified. Also, God could be proven if he revealed himself.

I think you might want to take some time to cool off. You seem to be rambling about things that weren't even brought up.
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#35
First, the premise that anything at all begins to exist is an assumption. According to the idea of conservation of matter and energy, neither matter nor energy (which are the same thing) can be created or destroyed. Therefore, if it cannot be created, it cannot begin to exist.
According to Hawking's latest work in the The Grand Design, it basically says that all the energy in the universe equals out. Gravitational energy is considered negative while energy from matter is considered positive. And by doing the math, the sum total of matter in the universe can cancel against the sum total of negative gravitational energy (E=mc^2 and all that for the mass energy equivalence).

Note that this neither helps nor hurts either side of the argument. It just helps to prove that at one time space time was at zero. Work by Guth, et al also confirms the mathematics behind this. Work done by them in 2003 says that it is most probable that our universe had a beginning (a time zero and space zero).

This is not a problem for the origin of the universe if the big bang singularity is supposed to have always existed, or if something is supposed to have existed before the big bang, from which the big bang was produced. Since we don't really know anything about the big bang singularity or what might have caused it or come before it, we can only speculate.
Although we are not positive as to the exact nature of the singularity, again due to work by Guth et al we are almost entirely positive that, in our inflationary universe a t= 0, s=0 occurred.

Additionally, the basic idea of causation is itself an assumption. Randomness and events without discernable causes are generally understood to be an inherent ingredient of quantum mechanics, which is currently our best and most fundamental understanding of nature (for example, virtual particles, which pop into existence in a seemingly random fashion and quickly annihilate one another, or wave functions, which are constrained by probability but whose outcome cannot even in principle be predicted).
To start off, randomness, and the lack of a discernible cause does not mean that there is a cause lacking. In the case of virtual particles, "they are fluctuations of the energy in the vacuum. The quantum vacuum is not nothing. It is a roiling sea of energy."

Here is a technically link which explains why they don't violate causality: Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles

I think I covered most if not all of your arguments. Please tell me if I didn't.
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#36
Disproving God in general is impossible, however disproving certain views of God is. If people attribute certain traits to a god and those traits can be shown to be inconsistent than it is falsified. Also, God could be proven if he revealed himself.

I think you might want to take some time to cool off. You seem to be rambling about things that weren't even brought up.
I would also like to add that it could be proven more rational to believe in a God as compared to not believing in one or vice versa :)
 

BigFriendlyApologist

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
May 8, 2012
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#37
What prevents me from committing mass murder is that I feel it would be morally wrong to do so. Beyond that I have no reason for doing such a thing so why would I go out of my way to do something that I would gain nothing from. Due to my understanding of the world around me I can know that preforming mass murder is evil. A big part of morality is considering our impact on others. I know that I have preferences towards wanting to live and against feeling pain. These preferences aren't arbitrary and have biological basis. Since I also do not have any valid reasons for believing that my preferences are uniquely important then this obliges me not to kill or injures others to avoid hypocrisy and thus moral inconsistency. Just because not wanting to be killed or hurt is a preference I have does not lessen its relevance to morality.
So would you consider your morals based in secular humanism (the greatest good for the greatest amount of people)? Would you consider them evolved from the desire for self preservation?
 
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Wesley

Guest
#38
I don't need to know specific children to make a generalization. My generalization is based on personal experience. I didn't say 'every atheist is this way' I said it's common in debate with atheists, which I know from personal experience. In many of the debates I've engaged in with atheists, it is typical for them to assume a literal translation of practically everything and then disregard the Bible entirely as ridiculous based on that interpretation. The younger or less educated the atheist, the more likely this is to come up.

OP is 16.

It's not unreasonable.
It's still an assumption. There's no telling that your personal experience is anything more than that. Although I will admit, it's much easier to show biblical errancy with a literal translation. I agree with you that understanding it as metaphor is much more valuable.


Social sciences.
No social science that I'm aware of supports any objective claim about "human nature" with evidence. One of the major critiques of the social sciences (sociology, cultural anthropology, economics, psychology, and so on) is that they are very subjective, and lack objective criteria for many if not most of their claims -- no doubt due in large part to the complexity of the subject of their study.

It doesn't follow that a better understanding of social sciences supports or undermines the Bible. The Bible has many points of truth in it, in my opinion, but nothing so unique that social science supports it to the exclusion of any other holy book.
 
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Wesley

Guest
#39
Is it just an evolutionary trait we inherited?


Also, how did we inherit this particular trait?
Human behavior is far too complex to ascribe solely to genetics. If by "inherit" you include inheritance from social or familial structures, then we're closer to a full explanation.

However, we see empathy in lower animals as well. We also see deceit, for that matter.

However, from an atheistic prospective, I would find it difficult to condemn Hitler's actions.
There is no one "atheistic perspective". From my own perspective, morality is relative; it is relative to both the moral agent and the circumstances of the action. However, I know that I do not like pain. Therefore, I go out of my way to avoid the infliction of pain on others, and I regard the wanton infliction of pain as wrong.

Note: "Pain" can be read "any unpleasant circumstance that does not have a more beneficial purpose or result".

Although we are not positive as to the exact nature of the singularity, again due to work by Guth et al we are almost entirely positive that, in our inflationary universe a t= 0, s=0 occurred.
Prior to Planck Time, the laws of physics as we know them break down. We cannot therefore say with certainty what happened before then.
 
Dec 25, 2009
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#40
So would you consider your morals based in secular humanism (the greatest good for the greatest amount of people)? Would you consider them evolved from the desire for self preservation?
That isn't the definition of secular humanism. You are describing universal hedonism and my morality is far from being that simplistic. Certain aspects for self preservation evolved and are a part of what makes up the concept I have of morality. I have no doubt of that. However, it goes beyond that because it is also based on philosophical developments and the increase in our understanding of the universe over the years. I already stated quite a bit of the basic concepts that underline my morality in my initial post. If you are trying to put a label on me than I do not know which one best fits me. It would definitely be a form of secular humanism since my morality is not derived from supernatural forces, but it definitely would not be the simplistic hedonism that you ascribe to that label.