Are all sexual practices/words "ok" in the context of marriage?
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Maybe my sexual past has resulted in my jumping to the other end of the spectrum, but for me the "fun" that comes through sex is hardly ever God honoring. I don't see that suddenly changing because I'm married.
As Ritter already mentioned, it IS one of those stronger/weaker brother situations. I guess I just can't even wrap my head around what God honoring sex really is, let alone think about many of the things i have already done suddenly becoming God honoring because they were done within the confines of marriage. Maybe it is possible, at this point definitely not for me.
As Ritter already mentioned, it IS one of those stronger/weaker brother situations. I guess I just can't even wrap my head around what God honoring sex really is, let alone think about many of the things i have already done suddenly becoming God honoring because they were done within the confines of marriage. Maybe it is possible, at this point definitely not for me.
I think the whole point of this thread was to discuss whether that is actually the case or not. :S
If one accepts this "Marital Hedonist" view point, then it would seem that you are correct. However, hedonism, is largely(entirely?) in opposition to the love Christ demonstrated. Not only are we told repeatedly that life on this earth will involve suffering (not pleasure), but the love defined in the bible involves great personal sacrifice.
That said, I do think it is entirely possible to desire sex for the intimacy, not the pleasure. I personally don't know what this would look like or how it would unfold. But that desire for intimacy and a deeper love and connection seems like the only truly God honoring sex.
If one accepts this "Marital Hedonist" view point, then it would seem that you are correct. However, hedonism, is largely(entirely?) in opposition to the love Christ demonstrated. Not only are we told repeatedly that life on this earth will involve suffering (not pleasure), but the love defined in the bible involves great personal sacrifice.
That said, I do think it is entirely possible to desire sex for the intimacy, not the pleasure. I personally don't know what this would look like or how it would unfold. But that desire for intimacy and a deeper love and connection seems like the only truly God honoring sex.
J
I think you have touched upon some of the resulting damage I was talking about, huh? The guilt and shame of past mistakes can do that too, can't they? You are right in saying that marriage doesn't automatically fix such things. Love, trust and patience can though.
I don't know how having a playful side when it comes to sexual matters could be any less godly than having a playful side regarding non-sexual matters, at least within the marital relationship.
You are a very sensitive, thoughtful, playful guy. You'll be a great hubby one of these days.
I don't know how having a playful side when it comes to sexual matters could be any less godly than having a playful side regarding non-sexual matters, at least within the marital relationship.
You are a very sensitive, thoughtful, playful guy. You'll be a great hubby one of these days.
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I understand (somewhat) Jullianna, as I've heard those words before. Wisdom, however, is not easily judged, and can be quite hard or ill-gotten.
In any case, I largely appreciate your posts. I think we're fellow INFJ's if I remember... ^_~ Strange to meet so many here. I'm the only one I've ever known.
I will say, though, on this whole topic...
I think many practices which the world has deemed 'okay' be it through experience, some way of teaching, ext...are not God honoring.
I second what you said in love, trust, intimacy, patience, building...and all others. I'd kindly like to caution everyone; however, to be careful about what it is you're building. Sometimes the end result is not what you thought or intended. We can build moments of intimacy and trust that are still sinful..
I believe this, and many such lessons as this one are hard or ill-gotten, just as the wisdom I mentioned. I would submit that the defeated and fallen may posses more wisdom than the victors. Pain, struggle, failure, loss...are all things that change and grow us for the better if we let them. I know many people have lessons they have to learn on their own, but I hope some may heed the advice of others who have walked down a path which they've returned from to warn others of the danger.
Anyway, God bless you all. Truly. I pray that by my life or death, I would be one to bring light, salt, and good to a world which I believe to so often be dark, bitter, and broken.
In any case, I largely appreciate your posts. I think we're fellow INFJ's if I remember... ^_~ Strange to meet so many here. I'm the only one I've ever known.
I will say, though, on this whole topic...
I think many practices which the world has deemed 'okay' be it through experience, some way of teaching, ext...are not God honoring.
I second what you said in love, trust, intimacy, patience, building...and all others. I'd kindly like to caution everyone; however, to be careful about what it is you're building. Sometimes the end result is not what you thought or intended. We can build moments of intimacy and trust that are still sinful..
I believe this, and many such lessons as this one are hard or ill-gotten, just as the wisdom I mentioned. I would submit that the defeated and fallen may posses more wisdom than the victors. Pain, struggle, failure, loss...are all things that change and grow us for the better if we let them. I know many people have lessons they have to learn on their own, but I hope some may heed the advice of others who have walked down a path which they've returned from to warn others of the danger.
Anyway, God bless you all. Truly. I pray that by my life or death, I would be one to bring light, salt, and good to a world which I believe to so often be dark, bitter, and broken.
I know I've been spending the past couple of days trying to figure out how to put things as tactfully as Jullianna did.
I've always been under the opinion that what happens in the marriage bed, or wherever else for that matter is holy before God as long as scripture does not specifically prohibit the activity, both persons are consenting, it isn't degrading or demeaning to either person, and isn't physically harmful. Consenting would mean that they have not been coerced into agreement, and likewise has the assurance that they can say no at any time without reprisal.
When it comes to bondage, domination, sadism and masochism there is a fine line. I would say that much of it would be off limits because it would fall into either degrading, demeaning or physically harmful.
I agree that freedom of sexual expression is rooted in trust and intimacy that is developed over time in a relationship. Even for a couple that are not virgins, there is still going to be a "learning curve" since their prior experiences are going to have been different.
I've always been under the opinion that what happens in the marriage bed, or wherever else for that matter is holy before God as long as scripture does not specifically prohibit the activity, both persons are consenting, it isn't degrading or demeaning to either person, and isn't physically harmful. Consenting would mean that they have not been coerced into agreement, and likewise has the assurance that they can say no at any time without reprisal.
When it comes to bondage, domination, sadism and masochism there is a fine line. I would say that much of it would be off limits because it would fall into either degrading, demeaning or physically harmful.
I agree that freedom of sexual expression is rooted in trust and intimacy that is developed over time in a relationship. Even for a couple that are not virgins, there is still going to be a "learning curve" since their prior experiences are going to have been different.
It's funny that you should mention this as just yesterday we had a long sermon addressing this exact idea. It was primarily centered around Matthew 16:16-23. Peter acknowledged who Jesus was, and demonstrated that he was a supporter of Jesus (and a friend). He then went on to essentially swear his allegiance and protection to Jesus. The Bible not only doesn't specifically forbid protecting someone, but seems to support this idea (who would let anyone kill the son of God??) of protecting Jesus. However, doing "the right thing" for the wrong reasons still makes it wrong. No longer is Peter a friend, but rather an adversary of Jesus because of the things he has said. The letter of the law is helpful in guiding us, but in the end even a "good" or "right" action when taken apart from God's will is not a "right" thing to do.
Additionally, I have some doubts about what the bible specifically forbids sexually and what it doesn't. The use of "sexual immorality" seems pretty vague. I want to dig into that a little more and will provide a follow up post if you would be open to further discussion.
Additionally, I have some doubts about what the bible specifically forbids sexually and what it doesn't. The use of "sexual immorality" seems pretty vague. I want to dig into that a little more and will provide a follow up post if you would be open to further discussion.
J
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 1 Cor 7
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I think there are times when scripture is silent for a reason. Perhaps this is true of extremely specific sexual limitations and perhaps that reason is that God knows how different we all are. For example, in the first line if the above passage, we see that Paul believed men shouldn't have sex AT ALL, but he goes on to acknowledge that he realizes we're all different and some have needs that others don't.
There are also biological factors to consider here that perhaps men who are not very sexually experienced may not be aware of, as the majority of men are (wow...I really have to be tactful here...umm) capable of fully enjoying sex to a satisfying conclusion in pretty much the same ways. This is not true of women. Certain things work for some women, others don't. Some guys care whether this happens for women, some don't. However, since the above scripture indicates that the needs of a wife are equally important than those of the husband, seems like this would be an important thing to consider while weighing what is or is not okay.
Bottomline: We're all different with regard to sexual needs, from gender to gender and within our own genders.
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I think there are times when scripture is silent for a reason. Perhaps this is true of extremely specific sexual limitations and perhaps that reason is that God knows how different we all are. For example, in the first line if the above passage, we see that Paul believed men shouldn't have sex AT ALL, but he goes on to acknowledge that he realizes we're all different and some have needs that others don't.
There are also biological factors to consider here that perhaps men who are not very sexually experienced may not be aware of, as the majority of men are (wow...I really have to be tactful here...umm) capable of fully enjoying sex to a satisfying conclusion in pretty much the same ways. This is not true of women. Certain things work for some women, others don't. Some guys care whether this happens for women, some don't. However, since the above scripture indicates that the needs of a wife are equally important than those of the husband, seems like this would be an important thing to consider while weighing what is or is not okay.
Bottomline: We're all different with regard to sexual needs, from gender to gender and within our own genders.
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Nautilus. That's exactly what I was saying. But I was also saying that we NEED to discern. Assuming that anything other than love (and even that!) is good is wrought with trouble. Everything we do (yes even the little things) should be sought to be done in accordance with God's will, seeking God and out of love. So, if someone is interested in trying "something new" I am simply suggesting that they should pray about it and get God's blessing together. It's not enough to just both say "yeah that sounds like fun."
To touch on the "marital hedonism" concept, I think that when you are following scripture, this doesn't come into play because at it's core, hedonism is about MY pleasure. In context of the passage that Jullianna posted, and other scriptures relating to marriage, our goal in sex should be the pleasure of our partner, not our own. Obviously for us guys this can be a more complex task than for the ladies to follow, but then when you look at the whole of scripture our obligation is always more difficult.
We are instructed to love our wives as Christ loved the church giving ourselves up for her, this command doesn't cease to exist at the bedroom door.
As for those guys that Jullianna mentioned that don't care if their wives have a "satisfying conclusion" (gonna have to change Jullianna's name to Miss_Tactful) that is a sure sign of pure selfishness that most likely had other symptoms apparent before they were married.
We are instructed to love our wives as Christ loved the church giving ourselves up for her, this command doesn't cease to exist at the bedroom door.
As for those guys that Jullianna mentioned that don't care if their wives have a "satisfying conclusion" (gonna have to change Jullianna's name to Miss_Tactful) that is a sure sign of pure selfishness that most likely had other symptoms apparent before they were married.
J
I agree about the discernment thing. I don't want to do anything I really don't want to do and I don't want my husband to either. And I want him to be comfortable enough to talk with me about anything and everything, what he likes, what he doesn't like.
My main point is this: It's subject to change as you mature and life happens.
What about when your wife is pregnant? Some things can be done, some can't at certain times.
What if your spouse is in a body cast for an extended period of time?
What if one of you ends up disabled in some way due to an accident or illness?
People get old at some point and the methods they enjoyed when they were younger don't work anymore (my mom, bless her heart, meant well, but gave me waaaaaaaaaaaay TMI in this regard haha)
I'm just saying that life happens and we adapt and adjust to whatever it takes to fulfill our obligations to one another. We learn that some things work faster, better, longer, and/or more intensely as we mature. Our tastes can change. Our needs can change. We grow up and grow less uptight about this stuff.
Oncefallen: I'm really TRYING to be good in this thread. I'd rather talk like a grownup and be a little more real, but I realize there are very young christians visiting these threads and I want to be respectful of them.
My main point is this: It's subject to change as you mature and life happens.
What about when your wife is pregnant? Some things can be done, some can't at certain times.
What if your spouse is in a body cast for an extended period of time?
What if one of you ends up disabled in some way due to an accident or illness?
People get old at some point and the methods they enjoyed when they were younger don't work anymore (my mom, bless her heart, meant well, but gave me waaaaaaaaaaaay TMI in this regard haha)
I'm just saying that life happens and we adapt and adjust to whatever it takes to fulfill our obligations to one another. We learn that some things work faster, better, longer, and/or more intensely as we mature. Our tastes can change. Our needs can change. We grow up and grow less uptight about this stuff.
Oncefallen: I'm really TRYING to be good in this thread.
I'd rather talk like a grownup and be a little more real, but I realize there are very young christians visiting these threads and I want to be respectful of them.
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Awkwaaard!!! Even as adults it's just awkward thinking of your parents being sexual. We all know it happens, but we sure don't want to think about it. I'm still prefer to believe my folks only had sex twice and conceived both times.
Yeah I understand. This conversation would be very different if held among a group of adults privately without having the concern of causing a weaker brother to stumble. I've been pleasantly surprised that I haven't had to edit any posts for being too graphic.
Oncefallen: I'm really TRYING to be good in this thread. I'd rather talk like a grownup and be a little more real, but I realize there are very young christians visiting these threads and I want to be respectful of them.
I'd rather talk like a grownup and be a little more real, but I realize there are very young christians visiting these threads and I want to be respectful of them.