C
cfultz, I'm surprised you liked my post. I was kind of criticizing you. 
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But you still spoke logically. I agree that we should put on dispensationalism glasses, seeing that God's ways were dispensed differently throughout those two ages. If you meant that as critizing me, perhaps if you would critique what was said, then there would be no reason to be offended by the critism, but helped in understanding your side by the critique (an attempt to be a little funny here). But, I know what you meant and I did not take it personally, as it is not my intent to prove one wrong and myself right. God bless.
C
So you wiillingly filter out the verses that contradict dispensationalism? Nice.
Here ya go:
Here ya go:
Did you read my OP? There was a justification by the Law and there is a justification by fatih. One was righteousness of deeds and the other is righteousness of Christ. Romans quite clearly explains this. The one by Law was put away with and replaced with the everlasting sacrifice of one Lamb. I am sorry you feel I willfully contradict God's word, even though Scripture was used to show the Law was commanded to be obeyed and in the Law there was a promise of a future Deliverer. They who obeyed, saw their Savior, and they who disobeyed remained under God's wrath. This sounds VERY much like how it is with us of faith. Does it not?
C
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Each had/have their righteousness, but the righteousness obtained by the Law did not justify them, they were still found guilty. But the rightousness obtained by Christ's faith (beleive system) does justifiy us. And thus, we do not have to go to Hades, seeing that there is no law there to condemn us. We are law abiding citizens by Jesus' righteousness. They, by continual sacrifice.
Each had/have their righteousness, but the righteousness obtained by the Law did not justify them, they were still found guilty. But the rightousness obtained by Christ's faith (beleive system) does justifiy us. And thus, we do not have to go to Hades, seeing that there is no law there to condemn us. We are law abiding citizens by Jesus' righteousness. They, by continual sacrifice.
I find it interesting how different people's minds work. We all see the world in different ways. For example, the above passage seems to say to you:
"Salvation was gained by works but is no longer gained by works."
Whereas I always used to take it to mean:
"If salvation were gained by works then it would no longer be gained by works if gained by grace. If by grace then it would no longer be by grace if gained by works."
Both are in the subjunctive mood, expressing theories but never realities. Neither makes a claim about the past or our present realities. So to me this verse has never made any assertions; it's entirely been theoretical in my mind. It states theoretical scenarios and then provides logical conclusions to them.
And if people went to a purgatory or to Sheol when they died before Christ's sacrifice, then the sacrifices obviously didn't save anyone. It would've only been when Christ died and rose again that they would have been saved. So it's hard for me to see where the animal sacrifices actually make anyone spiritually right with God or save them when...
* David was forgiven by God for his sins of adultery and murder before he offered a sacrifice.
* Abraham was made righteous in God's eyes through his faith.
* The animal sacrifices were part of a ceremonial Law and likely only served a ceremonial function.
* The sin offerings in some places are blatant purification offerings for ceremonial cleansing.
* A woman doesn't need Christ's sacrifice to atone for the sin of child birth even though that was the language used (i.e. I believe it was ceremonial language to fit a ceremonial system).
* Christ told us that no one comes to the Father but through him. This doesn't mean that the people of the Old Testament could come to God through sheep. And thus this points back to your belief in people of the OT only being saved after God's work through Christ.
Everything seems to point to the futility of the sacrificial system beyond ritual application. I agree that some figures in the OT were called righteous, but I don't believe it was because of anything they did. I believe that Christ, our high priest, imparted his righteousness to them, since the human high priest was a shadow of a very real person that was already in place and casting that shadow. Look at David's life. David is called righteous and blameless and all of these things, but he murdered and committed adultery. So this righteousness had to come from an outside source.
What does it mean to be justified before God by Christ's sacrifice? First it means that you need justification because you're unrighteous. Next it means that your righteousness (as well as David's) came from Christ.
Jeremiah 23:6 This is His name whereby He shall be called—the Lord our Righteousness.
"Salvation was gained by works but is no longer gained by works."
Whereas I always used to take it to mean:
"If salvation were gained by works then it would no longer be gained by works if gained by grace. If by grace then it would no longer be by grace if gained by works."
Both are in the subjunctive mood, expressing theories but never realities. Neither makes a claim about the past or our present realities. So to me this verse has never made any assertions; it's entirely been theoretical in my mind. It states theoretical scenarios and then provides logical conclusions to them.
And if people went to a purgatory or to Sheol when they died before Christ's sacrifice, then the sacrifices obviously didn't save anyone. It would've only been when Christ died and rose again that they would have been saved. So it's hard for me to see where the animal sacrifices actually make anyone spiritually right with God or save them when...
* David was forgiven by God for his sins of adultery and murder before he offered a sacrifice.
* Abraham was made righteous in God's eyes through his faith.
* The animal sacrifices were part of a ceremonial Law and likely only served a ceremonial function.
* The sin offerings in some places are blatant purification offerings for ceremonial cleansing.
* A woman doesn't need Christ's sacrifice to atone for the sin of child birth even though that was the language used (i.e. I believe it was ceremonial language to fit a ceremonial system).
* Christ told us that no one comes to the Father but through him. This doesn't mean that the people of the Old Testament could come to God through sheep. And thus this points back to your belief in people of the OT only being saved after God's work through Christ.
Everything seems to point to the futility of the sacrificial system beyond ritual application. I agree that some figures in the OT were called righteous, but I don't believe it was because of anything they did. I believe that Christ, our high priest, imparted his righteousness to them, since the human high priest was a shadow of a very real person that was already in place and casting that shadow. Look at David's life. David is called righteous and blameless and all of these things, but he murdered and committed adultery. So this righteousness had to come from an outside source.
What does it mean to be justified before God by Christ's sacrifice? First it means that you need justification because you're unrighteous. Next it means that your righteousness (as well as David's) came from Christ.
Jeremiah 23:6 This is His name whereby He shall be called—the Lord our Righteousness.
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C
I am not being hateful when I say soul my is wrenched. If my Op and responses are read, in which you said was not read fully, it would have been understood that Jesus went to Hades. The Jews of the Old Testament knew their souls went to Shoel. The faithful Jew would have known of a promised Deliverer and knew that animal sacrifice was only temportary. It would have been known that the only sacrifice which saved them from Abraham's Bosom was the sacrifice of the Christ. If my OP and responses were to have been read then it would have been me who would have said, 'It would've only been when Christ died and rose again that they would have been saved." If what you mean by 'spiritually right' is meant to mean 'justified', then no! They did not make them justified, seeing they went to Shoel, Hades, The realm of the dead, Abramham's Bosom, the grave. But if what you mean is they were forgiven by those sacrifices, then yes, they obeyed the Law and all was right. Again, the Law did not save them, Christ Jesus, who was in the belly of the Earth, did. He is the One who delivered them from the judgement of guilt, the destination of all those who are under the Law. Please, all I ask is that my OP and responses are read. Surely, this mess of implicating me saying that the Law saved the Jews, not only from you, would then be that the Law was a means by which one were to have received a Messiah, inasmuch as obedience to the Spirit is the means of for us to receive the Messiah the second time.
G
So you wiillingly filter out the verses that contradict dispensationalism? Nice.
Here ya go:
Here ya go:
Cee speaks the Truth from Him, as so led, and, might I add, 'that' is perfectly (led), period
The LAW NEVER saved anyone, but Christ sure did, and, before Christ came, God made the 10 commandments that were to be followed in obedience . They did not have the Spirit of Truth to guide them, so..... law it was. Obeying God was obeying The Law !
Like I said before, righteousness does NOT equal salvation, it is The Way to go to ENDURE, as the Lord leads us, in Spirit and Truth, to salvation, but, no, righteousness, nope, iit does NOT equal salvation. It does not. Who think that? No one in their 'right' mind. Righteousness was important, that is all, it COUNTED
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No need for your soul to be wrenched! haha I did go back and read your post in its entirety.
I guess I'm not entirely understanding what you were saying. To me it seemed like you were saying that the traditional Gospel (involving Christ's sacrifice and resurrection) is what saved people. Only it seemed like you were saying that they first had to obey the sacrifices in order to be saved by Christ when the Gospel came to fruition so-to-speak. That was the part I was skeptical about. And I provided what I believed to be scriptural evidence against that point.
Also what's the difference between being forgiven and being justified? Is one not justified when they are forgiven? What takes place in Sheol? Is it a place of torment? And if everyone went to Sheol to be tormented before Christ's death and resurrection, then how do we account for Samuel being reluctant to be disturbed by Saul when he was consulted?
1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
Some of the things which make me confused by what is claimed are the beliefs I already hold. For instance,
1. Sheol is the place of those who are both physically and spiritually dead.
2. Sheol is a place of torment based on Luke 16:23-24. Luke 16:28 "for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." The Hebrew word that would have been used in the name of this place would've been Sheol - not hell. So that man is being tormented in Sheol.
3. What is claimed is that everyone before Christ's apparent emergence in this world went to Sheol (even those who were called righteous; i.e. those who had obtained imparted righteousness). So the claim is that God sent the righteous to a place of torment. Why would he do that if they were righteous in his eyes already? The righteous live by faith and are spiritually alive, right?
4. Sheol is a place that is contrasted with Abraham's Bosom. Sheol is a place of punishment and Abraham's Bosom is a place of rest. Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
5. On another point Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are called alive (spiritually alive) and not dead. Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. [...]"
So what we have is that God calls Abraham righteous and he forgives David's sins. Then he sends them to a place of torment where they are tormented in agonizing flames. And at the same time we have Samuel disliking the fact that he was called forth from such a place. Then we have paradise being called Abraham's Bosom when Abraham is being tormented in Sheol. On top of that we have Jesus contrasting Sheol with Abraham's Bosom before his death and resurrection and giving examples of the types of people we might find in each. Then God calling Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [spiritually] alive but all those people still going to a place of the spiritually dead.
I think the main point we differ on is that perhaps you think that everyone was effectively unsaved (even though they would be later) before Christ's manifest sacrifice and resurrection while I believe that it was fundamentally retroactive in its effects (i.e. God promising to pay his Son's life for everyone else's but in the mean time buying their lives "on credit" only later to pay his Son when the time for collection came). Of course it could work quite differently than that, but I believe that everyone who was righteous before Christ's death and resurrection rested after death and were considered spiritually alive.
I did go back and read your post in its entirety.I guess I'm not entirely understanding what you were saying. To me it seemed like you were saying that the traditional Gospel (involving Christ's sacrifice and resurrection) is what saved people. Only it seemed like you were saying that they first had to obey the sacrifices in order to be saved by Christ when the Gospel came to fruition so-to-speak. That was the part I was skeptical about. And I provided what I believed to be scriptural evidence against that point.
Also what's the difference between being forgiven and being justified? Is one not justified when they are forgiven? What takes place in Sheol? Is it a place of torment? And if everyone went to Sheol to be tormented before Christ's death and resurrection, then how do we account for Samuel being reluctant to be disturbed by Saul when he was consulted?
1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
Some of the things which make me confused by what is claimed are the beliefs I already hold. For instance,
1. Sheol is the place of those who are both physically and spiritually dead.
2. Sheol is a place of torment based on Luke 16:23-24. Luke 16:28 "for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." The Hebrew word that would have been used in the name of this place would've been Sheol - not hell. So that man is being tormented in Sheol.
3. What is claimed is that everyone before Christ's apparent emergence in this world went to Sheol (even those who were called righteous; i.e. those who had obtained imparted righteousness). So the claim is that God sent the righteous to a place of torment. Why would he do that if they were righteous in his eyes already? The righteous live by faith and are spiritually alive, right?
4. Sheol is a place that is contrasted with Abraham's Bosom. Sheol is a place of punishment and Abraham's Bosom is a place of rest. Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
5. On another point Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are called alive (spiritually alive) and not dead. Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. [...]"
So what we have is that God calls Abraham righteous and he forgives David's sins. Then he sends them to a place of torment where they are tormented in agonizing flames. And at the same time we have Samuel disliking the fact that he was called forth from such a place. Then we have paradise being called Abraham's Bosom when Abraham is being tormented in Sheol. On top of that we have Jesus contrasting Sheol with Abraham's Bosom before his death and resurrection and giving examples of the types of people we might find in each. Then God calling Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [spiritually] alive but all those people still going to a place of the spiritually dead.
I think the main point we differ on is that perhaps you think that everyone was effectively unsaved (even though they would be later) before Christ's manifest sacrifice and resurrection while I believe that it was fundamentally retroactive in its effects (i.e. God promising to pay his Son's life for everyone else's but in the mean time buying their lives "on credit" only later to pay his Son when the time for collection came). Of course it could work quite differently than that, but I believe that everyone who was righteous before Christ's death and resurrection rested after death and were considered spiritually alive.
C
Aristocat,
Aristocat = black, Me = purple
No need for your soul to be wrenched! haha I did go back and read your post in its entirety. -- Thank you very much.
I guess I'm not entirely understanding what you were saying. To me it seemed like you were saying that the traditional Gospel (involving Christ's sacrifice and resurrection) is what saved people. -- What I mean: salvation by faith which is God's free gift, as oppose to salvation by works of the Law, is what saves people. So, it is faith which saves from the guilty verdict of condemnation (everlasting separation from God), of which we are naturally children of the rebellion, and thus, children of wrath. Without faith being the catalist of hope, we are lost, even by the works of the Law. Yes, the Gospel of the Good News, by hearing and believeing its words, is what saves us through faith, and not works.
Only it seemed like you were saying that they first had to obey the sacrifices in order to be saved by Christ when the Gospel came to fruition so-to-speak. That was the part I was skeptical about. And I provided what I believed to be scriptural evidence against that point. -- Yes. Obedience to the Law was not only commanded of them by God, but by that obedience (fulfilling the rules and ordinances contained in the Law) and by trusting in the promises of that Covenant, they who followed the Law as a means of following God, did see thier Deliverer. The who did not follow the Law, had no sacrifice and thus, no forgivness of thier rebellion. They had their works of the Law as thier own righteousness, and if they failed to abide by the Law, they then remained children of the rebellion.
Also what's the difference between being forgiven and being justified? -- Forgiven = I will not remember (hold against) your offense towards Me. Justified = not held guilty. Specifically, not found guilty of offence towards God and worthy of an adverse sentencing. Through sacrifice they were forgiven their sins and remained obedeint to the Law, but that never released them of God's verdict of them being guity of offense. Because the Law never justified them of this guilt, they went to Hades (the realm of the dead). This is why it is said that under the Law, no one is found innocent (KJV: rightous). But, under faith, we are held blameless, seeing that there is no law to acknowledge offense. May I add for a point of interest, that is why we of faith cannot sin (offend), because, there is no Law to hold us guilty of offense and thus, worthy of condemnation (there is no condemnation in those of faith).
Is one not justified when they are forgiven? -- one can be forgiven, but Justice demands the penality be paid. Under the Law, the penality was condemnation. But praised be Jah, that penality was paid by Christ and through Him, we are justified (found blamless) in Him, just as they in Abraham's Bosom rceived justification. From the top of my spirtual voice, I sing praises to God, 'I am no longer guilty of rebellion, but have been justified from the guilty verdict which naturally awaits all.' No longer are we naturally children of the rebellion who are destined for wrath, but we stand before God spotless.
What takes place in Sheol? -- For those of faith, the Jewish saints and Gentile saints, nothing. But for those who are not of faith, the place where they await the Great White Throne sentencing. We of faith are not guilty of offense and Jesus has delivered those who are Jewish saints from it. So, it is not a place for saints, but those still held guilty of offense.
Is it a place of torment? -- No, just a place for the dead (as oppose to those who are alive in Christ) to await their final sentencing. On the other hand, Hell WILL BE a place enveloped in God's heated passion (wrath). Hell will be a place full of God's wrath, and that is, my brother, the fire of His anger. There will be no peace, no intermission, no day, or night, just constantly under God's wrath which reaches even to the floors of corruption.
And if everyone went to Sheol to be tormented before Christ's death and resurrection, then how do we account for Samuel being reluctant to be disturbed by Saul when he was consulted? -- They who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom which was separated by a gulf. But, Paradise for the faithful is no longer in Hades, seeing that we, all of faith, are no longer held guilty. We can assume from Scripture that Samuel was before the LORD, and thus, went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise).
1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Some of the things which make me confused by what is claimed are the beliefs I already hold. For instance,
1. Sheol is the place of those who are both physically and spiritually dead. -- Now it is, but before there was a place called Abraham's Bosom in Hades for the righteous dead. 'Spiritually dead' only in the sense that they do/did not have Live in them. Not in the sense of complete non-existance, seeing that Jesus went their to proclaim the Good News of salvation to those in Paradise which happened to be in Hades. Also note: if you will, do a word search in the Old Testament for the words Hades, Sheol, grave, and you will see that there is still activity even on the other side of Abraham's Bosom, just as it was activity in the Lazarus story.
2. Sheol is a place of torment based on Luke 16:23-24. Luke 16:28 "for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." The Hebrew word that would have been used in the name of this place would've been Sheol - not hell. So that man is being tormented in Sheol. -- We can assume, as we did with Samuel, that he was in the part of Hades where God's wrath was and by knowing that God's wrath is no upon those who are righteous but upon the wicked, then we can say that he was not in Paradise as Lazarus. Just remember that there was a gulf between those in Paradise and those under God's wrath.
3. What is claimed is that everyone before Christ's apparent emergence in this world went to Sheol (even those who were called righteous; i.e. those who had obtained imparted righteousness). So the claim is that God sent the righteous to a place of torment. Why would he do that if they were righteous in his eyes already? The righteous live by faith and are spiritually alive, right? -- Please see aboves statements.
4. Sheol is a place that is contrasted with Abraham's Bosom. Sheol is a place of punishment and Abraham's Bosom is a place of rest. Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
5. On another point Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are called alive (spiritually alive) and not dead. Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. [...]" --- Because they were resurrected with the Christ from the dead, to live forevermore with Him.
So what we have is that God calls Abraham righteous and he forgives David's sins. Then he sends them to a place of torment where they are tormented in agonizing flames. And at the same time we have Samuel disliking the fact that he was called forth from such a place. Then we have paradise being called Abraham's Bosom when Abraham is being tormented in Sheol. On top of that we have Jesus contrasting Sheol with Abraham's Bosom before his death and resurrection and giving examples of the types of people we might find in each. Then God calling Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [spiritually] alive but all those people still going to a place of the spiritually dead.
I think the main point we differ on is that perhaps you think that everyone was effectively unsaved (even though they would be later) before Christ's manifest sacrifice and resurrection --- No. As long as it is understood that all was found guilty under the Law, but that those abiding by the Law did not go to the other side of Hades. And that they were justified from that guilty verdict by their faith in the One who came to them to reverse that sentencing. I repeat, God's wrath was/is not upon the righteous, but upon the wicked.
while I believe that it was fundamentally retroactive in its effects (i.e. God promising to pay his Son's life for everyone else's but in the mean time buying their lives "on credit" only later to pay his Son when the time for collection came). Of course it could work quite differently than that, but I believe that everyone who was righteous before Christ's death and resurrection rested after death and were considered spiritually alive.
Aristocat = black, Me = purple
No need for your soul to be wrenched! haha I did go back and read your post in its entirety. -- Thank you very much.
I guess I'm not entirely understanding what you were saying. To me it seemed like you were saying that the traditional Gospel (involving Christ's sacrifice and resurrection) is what saved people. -- What I mean: salvation by faith which is God's free gift, as oppose to salvation by works of the Law, is what saves people. So, it is faith which saves from the guilty verdict of condemnation (everlasting separation from God), of which we are naturally children of the rebellion, and thus, children of wrath. Without faith being the catalist of hope, we are lost, even by the works of the Law. Yes, the Gospel of the Good News, by hearing and believeing its words, is what saves us through faith, and not works.
Only it seemed like you were saying that they first had to obey the sacrifices in order to be saved by Christ when the Gospel came to fruition so-to-speak. That was the part I was skeptical about. And I provided what I believed to be scriptural evidence against that point. -- Yes. Obedience to the Law was not only commanded of them by God, but by that obedience (fulfilling the rules and ordinances contained in the Law) and by trusting in the promises of that Covenant, they who followed the Law as a means of following God, did see thier Deliverer. The who did not follow the Law, had no sacrifice and thus, no forgivness of thier rebellion. They had their works of the Law as thier own righteousness, and if they failed to abide by the Law, they then remained children of the rebellion.
Also what's the difference between being forgiven and being justified? -- Forgiven = I will not remember (hold against) your offense towards Me. Justified = not held guilty. Specifically, not found guilty of offence towards God and worthy of an adverse sentencing. Through sacrifice they were forgiven their sins and remained obedeint to the Law, but that never released them of God's verdict of them being guity of offense. Because the Law never justified them of this guilt, they went to Hades (the realm of the dead). This is why it is said that under the Law, no one is found innocent (KJV: rightous). But, under faith, we are held blameless, seeing that there is no law to acknowledge offense. May I add for a point of interest, that is why we of faith cannot sin (offend), because, there is no Law to hold us guilty of offense and thus, worthy of condemnation (there is no condemnation in those of faith).
Is one not justified when they are forgiven? -- one can be forgiven, but Justice demands the penality be paid. Under the Law, the penality was condemnation. But praised be Jah, that penality was paid by Christ and through Him, we are justified (found blamless) in Him, just as they in Abraham's Bosom rceived justification. From the top of my spirtual voice, I sing praises to God, 'I am no longer guilty of rebellion, but have been justified from the guilty verdict which naturally awaits all.' No longer are we naturally children of the rebellion who are destined for wrath, but we stand before God spotless.
What takes place in Sheol? -- For those of faith, the Jewish saints and Gentile saints, nothing. But for those who are not of faith, the place where they await the Great White Throne sentencing. We of faith are not guilty of offense and Jesus has delivered those who are Jewish saints from it. So, it is not a place for saints, but those still held guilty of offense.
Is it a place of torment? -- No, just a place for the dead (as oppose to those who are alive in Christ) to await their final sentencing. On the other hand, Hell WILL BE a place enveloped in God's heated passion (wrath). Hell will be a place full of God's wrath, and that is, my brother, the fire of His anger. There will be no peace, no intermission, no day, or night, just constantly under God's wrath which reaches even to the floors of corruption.
And if everyone went to Sheol to be tormented before Christ's death and resurrection, then how do we account for Samuel being reluctant to be disturbed by Saul when he was consulted? -- They who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom which was separated by a gulf. But, Paradise for the faithful is no longer in Hades, seeing that we, all of faith, are no longer held guilty. We can assume from Scripture that Samuel was before the LORD, and thus, went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise).
1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Some of the things which make me confused by what is claimed are the beliefs I already hold. For instance,
1. Sheol is the place of those who are both physically and spiritually dead. -- Now it is, but before there was a place called Abraham's Bosom in Hades for the righteous dead. 'Spiritually dead' only in the sense that they do/did not have Live in them. Not in the sense of complete non-existance, seeing that Jesus went their to proclaim the Good News of salvation to those in Paradise which happened to be in Hades. Also note: if you will, do a word search in the Old Testament for the words Hades, Sheol, grave, and you will see that there is still activity even on the other side of Abraham's Bosom, just as it was activity in the Lazarus story.
2. Sheol is a place of torment based on Luke 16:23-24. Luke 16:28 "for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." The Hebrew word that would have been used in the name of this place would've been Sheol - not hell. So that man is being tormented in Sheol. -- We can assume, as we did with Samuel, that he was in the part of Hades where God's wrath was and by knowing that God's wrath is no upon those who are righteous but upon the wicked, then we can say that he was not in Paradise as Lazarus. Just remember that there was a gulf between those in Paradise and those under God's wrath.
3. What is claimed is that everyone before Christ's apparent emergence in this world went to Sheol (even those who were called righteous; i.e. those who had obtained imparted righteousness). So the claim is that God sent the righteous to a place of torment. Why would he do that if they were righteous in his eyes already? The righteous live by faith and are spiritually alive, right? -- Please see aboves statements.
4. Sheol is a place that is contrasted with Abraham's Bosom. Sheol is a place of punishment and Abraham's Bosom is a place of rest. Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
5. On another point Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are called alive (spiritually alive) and not dead. Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. [...]" --- Because they were resurrected with the Christ from the dead, to live forevermore with Him.
So what we have is that God calls Abraham righteous and he forgives David's sins. Then he sends them to a place of torment where they are tormented in agonizing flames. And at the same time we have Samuel disliking the fact that he was called forth from such a place. Then we have paradise being called Abraham's Bosom when Abraham is being tormented in Sheol. On top of that we have Jesus contrasting Sheol with Abraham's Bosom before his death and resurrection and giving examples of the types of people we might find in each. Then God calling Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [spiritually] alive but all those people still going to a place of the spiritually dead.
I think the main point we differ on is that perhaps you think that everyone was effectively unsaved (even though they would be later) before Christ's manifest sacrifice and resurrection --- No. As long as it is understood that all was found guilty under the Law, but that those abiding by the Law did not go to the other side of Hades. And that they were justified from that guilty verdict by their faith in the One who came to them to reverse that sentencing. I repeat, God's wrath was/is not upon the righteous, but upon the wicked.
while I believe that it was fundamentally retroactive in its effects (i.e. God promising to pay his Son's life for everyone else's but in the mean time buying their lives "on credit" only later to pay his Son when the time for collection came). Of course it could work quite differently than that, but I believe that everyone who was righteous before Christ's death and resurrection rested after death and were considered spiritually alive.
G
Brilliant, explanation, cee, you 'faithfully' nail The Law on the head, through 'it' one either chooses to believe or 'disbelief' in their 'rest.'
Aristo, meow, you just been blessed again on this thread with great Truth from His servant, cee.
Cee, if the Lord leads, this thread speaks 'faithfully' of law vs faith obedience for one's salvation, so, of Hebrews I was thinking , a Hebrews 2 then 3 study good now
Aristo, meow, you just been blessed again on this thread with great Truth from His servant, cee.
Cee, if the Lord leads, this thread speaks 'faithfully' of law vs faith obedience for one's salvation, so, of Hebrews I was thinking , a Hebrews 2 then 3 study good now
J
Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Your works righteousness is condemned by scripture.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Your works righteousness is condemned by scripture.
C
Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] -- Absolutely NO ONE was justified (found guiltless) by the deeds of the Law. But, they who were obedient to the Law did receive their Deliverer. If we of faith are to be obedient to the Spirit as our Guide, or else we are fatherless, then they of the Law must had been obedient to the Law as their guide, or else they did not go to Abraham's Bosom awaiting their Messiah.
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. -- That is why it was their own righteousnes. They, through deeds, had to work for thier righteousness. As they themselves said:
Deu_6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: -- Praise be God that salvation is no longer by works but by faith. And they who were obedient to the Law did believe (had faith in, had confidence in) the promises of their Covenant. Inasmuich as we are obedient to the Law of the Spirit, eagerly awaiting the blessed promise of the Messiah, they too obedient to the Law of Ordinances.
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. -- So then, it really does boil down to believing God in what God has promised. They of the Law believed God to be faithful to redeem them, and they were. We of faith believe God to be faithful to redeem us, and we will be again.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. -- Are we not in the age of grace, the time of the Gentiles? Are we to demolish the Law.? No. Is it not established? Nowheres does it say, or has been said, that the Law justified anyone. Never has, never will. So then, it must be by faith. At the first appearance of our Lord, they who believed God in His first Covenant, received the first installment of repayment. That is, are they who were obedient to the Law not in Heaven looking down at us as witnesses? And at His second appearance, they who are here of faith, shall see that fulfillment of what God has promised.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. -- That is true now, but before it was deeds of the Law. And may I point out that the promises were made to those who were/are obedient, 'not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham'. They of the Law had deeds for their righteousness. We of faith have the deeds of Jesus as our righteousness. We are justified because He paid the penality of death for us. They paid the penality of death themselves, but were redeemed by that same death penality of Jesus' when He went and took captive those held captive by the adverse sentencing of guilt..
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. -- Yes. And where do you find disagreement? Justified = found not guilty and thus, not worthy of condemnation (everlasting separation from God). The Lord Jesus became our obedience to the Law of God so that we of faith, whether a faithful Jew of the Old Covanant or us of the New Covenant, did not have to experience everlastingly that justified judgment of death brought about by the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Your works righteousness is condemned by scripture. -- No it is not. For it is said, 'Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law'.Because salvation is now by the Law of the Spirit (the Spirit as our Guide), that does not nullify the Law of Ordinaces as having been the guide of God's ways for those of the Old Covenant. We, by faith, shall receive the Messiah, as they of the Law received their Messiah. It is all about trusting God in the promises He has made. So when the Bible speaks of them obeying the Law for a self-righteousness (not self-justification), it does not condemn itself. for Scripture also says that they beleived God in His faithfulness, and thus, were justified from condemnation. Very much the same as we believe in the Son of God and are justifed from that judgment. Remember, they paid that penality. Christ paid that penality for us. Christ is always the central focus. He has delivered and shall deliver. He has redeemed the saints from Hades, and He shall redeem the saints from the Earth. Christ! Christ! Christ! It has always been about Him.......
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] -- Absolutely NO ONE was justified (found guiltless) by the deeds of the Law. But, they who were obedient to the Law did receive their Deliverer. If we of faith are to be obedient to the Spirit as our Guide, or else we are fatherless, then they of the Law must had been obedient to the Law as their guide, or else they did not go to Abraham's Bosom awaiting their Messiah.
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. -- That is why it was their own righteousnes. They, through deeds, had to work for thier righteousness. As they themselves said:
Deu_6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: -- Praise be God that salvation is no longer by works but by faith. And they who were obedient to the Law did believe (had faith in, had confidence in) the promises of their Covenant. Inasmuich as we are obedient to the Law of the Spirit, eagerly awaiting the blessed promise of the Messiah, they too obedient to the Law of Ordinances.
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. -- So then, it really does boil down to believing God in what God has promised. They of the Law believed God to be faithful to redeem them, and they were. We of faith believe God to be faithful to redeem us, and we will be again.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. -- Are we not in the age of grace, the time of the Gentiles? Are we to demolish the Law.? No. Is it not established? Nowheres does it say, or has been said, that the Law justified anyone. Never has, never will. So then, it must be by faith. At the first appearance of our Lord, they who believed God in His first Covenant, received the first installment of repayment. That is, are they who were obedient to the Law not in Heaven looking down at us as witnesses? And at His second appearance, they who are here of faith, shall see that fulfillment of what God has promised.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. -- That is true now, but before it was deeds of the Law. And may I point out that the promises were made to those who were/are obedient, 'not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham'. They of the Law had deeds for their righteousness. We of faith have the deeds of Jesus as our righteousness. We are justified because He paid the penality of death for us. They paid the penality of death themselves, but were redeemed by that same death penality of Jesus' when He went and took captive those held captive by the adverse sentencing of guilt..
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. -- Yes. And where do you find disagreement? Justified = found not guilty and thus, not worthy of condemnation (everlasting separation from God). The Lord Jesus became our obedience to the Law of God so that we of faith, whether a faithful Jew of the Old Covanant or us of the New Covenant, did not have to experience everlastingly that justified judgment of death brought about by the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Your works righteousness is condemned by scripture. -- No it is not. For it is said, 'Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law'.Because salvation is now by the Law of the Spirit (the Spirit as our Guide), that does not nullify the Law of Ordinaces as having been the guide of God's ways for those of the Old Covenant. We, by faith, shall receive the Messiah, as they of the Law received their Messiah. It is all about trusting God in the promises He has made. So when the Bible speaks of them obeying the Law for a self-righteousness (not self-justification), it does not condemn itself. for Scripture also says that they beleived God in His faithfulness, and thus, were justified from condemnation. Very much the same as we believe in the Son of God and are justifed from that judgment. Remember, they paid that penality. Christ paid that penality for us. Christ is always the central focus. He has delivered and shall deliver. He has redeemed the saints from Hades, and He shall redeem the saints from the Earth. Christ! Christ! Christ! It has always been about Him.......
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G
Bright, even burning, cee, His Truth.
The Law was how one attained righteousness with God, as He wrote them down so the people of Israel would write them commandments on the 'tablet' of their heart.
Faith, jimdig, faithful obedience to God's prescribed plan, this was the way the people of Israel HAD to seek God with all their hearts, for The Way was not yet seeable by them, only foreseeable.
Joshua 1:7-9 “Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."
The Law was how one attained righteousness with God, as He wrote them down so the people of Israel would write them commandments on the 'tablet' of their heart.
Faith, jimdig, faithful obedience to God's prescribed plan, this was the way the people of Israel HAD to seek God with all their hearts, for The Way was not yet seeable by them, only foreseeable.
Joshua 1:7-9 “Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."
G
'Faith,' in God, read all about it in cee's brilliantly worked thread by the hands of Him.
I think one needs to pray, in the Spirit, for understanding His Truth of how salvation player unto our life then (old covenant of Moses and 'The Law' (10 commandments) and now (faith in Christ's work)
I just want us all to understand we must have faith in Him because troublesome timesvare here and yet to come for believers in Him,cScripture says, earthquakes, famines , tsunamis, but the start of the real 'fun,' which won't be fun at all. Keep your FAITH steadfast in ONLY Him, your Lord God Savior, and, Holy Spirit in you, for the night will not light one day, the stars shall fall from the sky and then, Jesus ie coming again.
Oh, ok, yes, you guessed right, my post is definitely a......
*...bump
I think one needs to pray, in the Spirit, for understanding His Truth of how salvation player unto our life then (old covenant of Moses and 'The Law' (10 commandments) and now (faith in Christ's work)
I just want us all to understand we must have faith in Him because troublesome timesvare here and yet to come for believers in Him,cScripture says, earthquakes, famines , tsunamis, but the start of the real 'fun,' which won't be fun at all. Keep your FAITH steadfast in ONLY Him, your Lord God Savior, and, Holy Spirit in you, for the night will not light one day, the stars shall fall from the sky and then, Jesus ie coming again.
Oh, ok, yes, you guessed right, my post is definitely a......
*...bump
Last edited by a moderator: