I seem to be having a problem...... I hear both cessationists and continualists saying that Joel's prophecy about the Holy Spirit and the gift of prophecy expands from Jesus's ascension till the second coming. Then I hear some cessationists are saying the gift of prophecy has ended in 200 A.D. Please...... don't say that God is causing some people to prophesy, but the gift is gone. The apostle Paul proclaimed that God's Holy Spirit works in Christian's lives by gifts. That is the established definition. If it started in gifts on the day of Pentecost, after Jesus's ascension, it seems to me it must end the same.
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G
Ok, 2000 years, g.r.a., I just see a continuation throughout, no mention WHATSOEVER of spiritual gifts to cease; indeed, just the opposite, the pouring out of the Spirit and the prophesying, as per definitions stated in OP, continue to this day and will continue until 'the sun becomes darkness,' and, 'the moon turns to blood,' and, 'fire, vapor, billows of smoke' come before the coming again of the Lord.
The prophesying, as ohzone states, is not a set era of time that the NT church is established with spiritual gifts and ceased; Scripture is perfectly clear that prophesying comes AND STAYS (because Scrioture never prophesies it leaves) and then, after many catastrophic events, Jesus' comes again.
Good posts, Cheist peeps, I appreciate YOU all, my heart's after Him
Keep on keeping on working for Him, follow Him, and, don't forget that whether the spiritual gifts ceased, or, not, in the big scheme of things THIS does NOT matter, He, in your heart, matters, like David, who wasn't perfect in character but AS in being a man God KNEW, in david's MANY WEAKNESSES. found his strength in God and was after God's will for his life. The Lord leads, by Hos power OVER you. Preach Christ and Christ crucified, Scripture is clear, to bring others to Him this 'grace' exolains all and all.
The prophesying, as ohzone states, is not a set era of time that the NT church is established with spiritual gifts and ceased; Scripture is perfectly clear that prophesying comes AND STAYS (because Scrioture never prophesies it leaves) and then, after many catastrophic events, Jesus' comes again.
Good posts, Cheist peeps, I appreciate YOU all, my heart's after Him
Keep on keeping on working for Him, follow Him, and, don't forget that whether the spiritual gifts ceased, or, not, in the big scheme of things THIS does NOT matter, He, in your heart, matters, like David, who wasn't perfect in character but AS in being a man God KNEW, in david's MANY WEAKNESSES. found his strength in God and was after God's will for his life. The Lord leads, by Hos power OVER you. Preach Christ and Christ crucified, Scripture is clear, to bring others to Him this 'grace' exolains all and all.
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U
Perhaps a few dreams where I've sensed God's presence Rick. But never any "visions" ... or prophetic words ... or trips to the third heaven or behind the veil ... no speaking in a heavenly language (except for the purpose of giving thanks and praise in my native tongue ... Is that considered heavenly ?) ... I've never laid my hands on somebody and healed them ... none of that stuff. But I have prayed for people to be healed whichever way God chooses to heal them. And have had prayers answered in this regard. I know ... I'm boring
Moses also agrees with Joel. Notice the text:
Numbers 11:28-29 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Note the point made by the Preachers Outline and Sermon Bible:
b. But note the spirit of Moses, the spirit of a true servant of God. This was just what he wanted: he prayed for the Lord's Spirit to come upon all believers, for all believers to be prophets (Numbers 11:29). He wanted all believers to be filled with the fullness of God, to experience the full presence and provision of God.
What Moses said was not a fleshly desire, but a prophetic word.
Numbers 11:28-29 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Note the point made by the Preachers Outline and Sermon Bible:
b. But note the spirit of Moses, the spirit of a true servant of God. This was just what he wanted: he prayed for the Lord's Spirit to come upon all believers, for all believers to be prophets (Numbers 11:29). He wanted all believers to be filled with the fullness of God, to experience the full presence and provision of God.
What Moses said was not a fleshly desire, but a prophetic word.
G
Perhaps a few dreams where I've sensed God's presence Rick. But never any "visions" ... or prophetic words ... or trips to the third heaven or behind the veil ... no speaking in a heavenly language (except for the purpose of giving thanks and praise in my native tongue ... Is that considered heavenly ?) ... I've never laid my hands on somebody and healed them ... none of that stuff. But I have prayed for people to be healed whichever way God chooses to heal them. And have had prayers answered in this regard. I know ... I'm boring
Anyobe that wants to JUDGE someone else on here because they understand the Spirit differently than them can, sure, explain their view is false according to Scripture, but to outright judge them for something they believe within the core of a belief and trust in Christ and are LIVING tgeir life in Him, is something I csn guarantee you God does not like, and, He is, maybe,cspeaking to YOU right now, cessarionist or continuationist, don't stop up.your ears , because IF you don't listen to God then when you cry, He may not listen (shew mercy) to you .
The Lord leads, listen to Him
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G
hi greener
"The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events."
then we ought to be able to show continuation throughout history.
"Signs and wonders happened in Apostles' gifts time, but TAME by comparison to things.to come !"
really? so people today (or in the future) will do more than Jesus and the Apostles did?
where does it say that? (Where doesn't it say that, ohzone, is the best question)
green, i love you, and i 'see' your love and devotion to Our Lord.
i don't question that nor consider you anything but a brother.
you may or may not feel the same way toward me (that's okay...please don't answer)
but i want you to know i love you.
zone
~
i do see this written:
2 Chronicles 18
And the LORD said, ‘These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.’” 17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” 18And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 20Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ 21And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 22Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The LORD has declared disaster concerning you.”
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
"The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events."
then we ought to be able to show continuation throughout history.
"Signs and wonders happened in Apostles' gifts time, but TAME by comparison to things.to come !"
really? so people today (or in the future) will do more than Jesus and the Apostles did?
where does it say that? (Where doesn't it say that, ohzone, is the best question)
green, i love you, and i 'see' your love and devotion to Our Lord.
i don't question that nor consider you anything but a brother.
you may or may not feel the same way toward me (that's okay...please don't answer)
but i want you to know i love you.
zone
~
i do see this written:
2 Chronicles 18
And the LORD said, ‘These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.’” 17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” 18And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 20Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ 21And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 22Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The LORD has declared disaster concerning you.”
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Maybe we WILL do 'more' than the apostles did, ohzone. Converting 8,000 from ALL over stands as a pretty big thibg, but, look at THIS WORLD NOW? GOD is allowing much now (much more?) and who knows what He will do in these lasr days? Do we know how long until He comes even, I've heard proof that He won't come for several yesrs now. Sure, we are ALL imputed with Christ's righteousness for placing Him in our heart, and, are all freely given His Holy Spirit upon faith in Him, and, this is what makes sense to me.
Again, I am WRONG all the time on here, the Lord leads, I learn things DAILY on here from ALL you guys, of you, of God, I am bleseed by my felpow Christ peeps
Here is the connectedness of the perfect coming, ohzone. In Acts 2, we are talking about the starting of the spiritual gifts and Scripture is clear, "In the last days, pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind....sons and daughters will prophesy...young man dream dreams....And they shall prophesy...blood, and, fire, and, vapor of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness (this is NO eclipse, it's catastrophic) " and, then what COMES next, after all these things, the LORD comes.
"...and the moon into blood before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come."
This IS the perfection that comes, 'the day of the Lord . We live in an imperfect world, but, when He comes, it shall be perfect again because Christ IS perfect.
Contrast this with....
1 Cor. 13
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these
three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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When Jesus comes, there will be no more need for prophesy, no more need for any gifts, any signs, any wonders, for He HAS come .
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G
"I did not say this..."
My focus and intent (so far) in this thread [has only been] to point out - by virtue of what I believe the scriptures actually say - those things that I believe people are misconstruing. I have (thus far) avoided "getting into the depths of" the 'spiritual gifts' issue itself.
I believe that the [miraculous] 'spiritual gifts' are no longer being "exercised" today - but, not having anything [directly] to do with the completion of the canon of scripture.
Joel's prophecy is not [just] about the Holy Spirit outpouring that started on the day of Pentecost. This is but just a miniscule part of the whole prophecy. (Read the whole book - all three chapters.)
Only two verses in the whole book (chapter 2 verses 28-29) are about Pentecost.
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My focus and intent (so far) in this thread [has only been] to point out - by virtue of what I believe the scriptures actually say - those things that I believe people are misconstruing. I have (thus far) avoided "getting into the depths of" the 'spiritual gifts' issue itself.
I believe that the [miraculous] 'spiritual gifts' are no longer being "exercised" today - but, not having anything [directly] to do with the completion of the canon of scripture.
Joel's prophecy is not [just] about the Holy Spirit outpouring that started on the day of Pentecost. This is but just a miniscule part of the whole prophecy. (Read the whole book - all three chapters.)
Only two verses in the whole book (chapter 2 verses 28-29) are about Pentecost.
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I'm having a difficult time figuring out which part GreenNnice got wrong on these "mixed up "definitions. Let's look:
Hebrew Strong's Number: 5012 Hebrew Word: ‏נָבָא‎ Transliteration: nābāʾ Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-baw: a primitive root
Part of Speech: v Vine's Words: Prophesy (To)
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV: prophesy 111 prophesying 2 prophet 2
a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse) :- prophesy (-ing), make self a prophet.
Hebrew Strong's Number: 5030 Hebrew Word: ‏נָבִיא‎ Transliteration: nābמʾ Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-bee' Root: from <H5012> Cross Reference: TWOT - 1277a Part of Speech: n m Vine's Words: Prophesy (To)
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV: from <H5012> (naba'); a prophet or (generical) inspired man :- prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.
Example: Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
NT words:
Greek Strong's Number: 4395 Greek Word: נסןצחפוύש Transliteration: prophēteuō Phonetic Pronunciation rof-ate-yoo'-o Root: from <G4396> Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:781,952 Part of Speech: v Vine's Words: Prophecy, Prophesy, Prophesying
from <G4396> (prophetes); to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office :- prophesy.
Greek Strong's Number: 4396 Greek Word: נסןצήפחע Transliteration: prophētēs Phonetic Pronunciation rof-ay'-tace Root: from a compound of <G4253> and <G5346> Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:781,952 Part of Speech: n m Vine's Words: Prophet
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV:
prophet 149 from a compound of <G4253> (pro) and <G5346> (phemi); a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet :- prophet.
Examples: Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be destroyed from among the people.
Acts 2:16-18 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy (prophēteuō
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.From reading Strong's concordance, I just don't see anything "mixed up" here.
Perhaps there's a mixup on the word "witness".
All prophets are witnesses, but not all witnesses are prophets.
Example: any Christian could witness without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But, any Christian that does witness by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as in being led by the Holy Spirit, according to definition, that person is prophesying. Anyone who speaks by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit according to definition is prophesying. Read this good example:
John 11:49-52 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied (prophēteuō
that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. God inspired the high priest to say this. He quoted a previous prophecy. Yet according to the Scripture, he himself is prophesying. This fellow is not righteous according to either covenant. It's almost as if, in some people's eyes, God broke his own rules.
I don't see anything wrong with what GreenNnice has said so far.
I thought that was good enough to repeat.
No More Prophets
No More Prophets - SermonAudio.com < click source - MP3
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1 - SermonAudio.com < click source MP3
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 2 - SermonAudio.com < click source MP3
No More Prophets - SermonAudio.com < click source - MP3
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1 - SermonAudio.com < click source MP3
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1
Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 2 - SermonAudio.com < click source MP3
G
I thought that was good enough to repeat.
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
.
GAPS have been imposed upon the texts that do not belong (various forms of dispensationalism, by whatever name).
examples:
GAP concerning the jews not able to receive the Gospel due to faulty interpretations of Romans 11 (must wait until "gentiles complete")
GAP concerning a future 1,000 years needed (jews blinded, must receive earthly kingdom)
GAP imposed on Acts 2 (and other Apostolic era gifts and activity), saying it either: ceased or diminished but now is restarted, or will be increasing, "Latter Rain, etc"
none of the above are true.
remove all the gaps and the problems disappear.
ALL are intended and have succeeding in taking our eyes off the Finished Work of Jesus, and The Person of Jesus, period.
examples:
GAP concerning the jews not able to receive the Gospel due to faulty interpretations of Romans 11 (must wait until "gentiles complete")
GAP concerning a future 1,000 years needed (jews blinded, must receive earthly kingdom)
GAP imposed on Acts 2 (and other Apostolic era gifts and activity), saying it either: ceased or diminished but now is restarted, or will be increasing, "Latter Rain, etc"
none of the above are true.
remove all the gaps and the problems disappear.
ALL are intended and have succeeding in taking our eyes off the Finished Work of Jesus, and The Person of Jesus, period.
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Heaven will be grand, ohzone.
Prophesy? G.r.a. ? Not prophesy through the 'witness' but 'prophesying.'
Bible prophecy is different than bible prophesying, you seem to be saying ?
This is also good enough to repeat:
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
.
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
.
Bible prophecy is different than bible prophesying, you seem to be saying ?
This is also good enough to repeat:
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
Don't tell me, tell Strong's Concordance. That's what I quoted from.
This is also good enough to repeat:
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
.
The best all-inclusive definition that I can "come up with" at the moment that I believe describes most completely what prophesy is and is not:
"to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation"
I do not believe that the scope of this statement includes everything in those definitions.
I do not believe that anything uttered "under a divine influence" can be properly called a prophecy.
.
G
Heaven will be grand, ohzone.
Prophesy? G.r.a. ? Not prophesy through the 'witness' but 'prophesying.'
Bible prophecy is different than bible prophesying, you seem to be saying ?
Prophesy? G.r.a. ? Not prophesy through the 'witness' but 'prophesying.'
Bible prophecy is different than bible prophesying, you seem to be saying ?
A witness testifies. A prophet prophesies. There are no more prophets. (Except 'the two witnesses' of Revelation prophecy.)
.
G
No.
A witness testifies. A prophet prophesies. There are no more prophets. (Except 'the two witnesses' of Revelation prophecy.)
.
A witness testifies. A prophet prophesies. There are no more prophets. (Except 'the two witnesses' of Revelation prophecy.)
.
No more prophets? Is this specific in Scripture, the two witnesses are prophets?
The prophecy is not prophesying, as in divine inspiration/revelation instead of foretelling futire events, per OP definitions? ?
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