Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[Abiding]

Well sure He can turn and make any one us work towards
His will...noone can thwart His purposes.

But there is plenty of evidence He has given us in scripture how that is. Not that He has limits
but His doings are going to be limited by His good will and pleasure that was ordained before
time began.

God doesnt look down through time that would mean He learned something.
Thats not in line with His nature.

 

[tern]

Every person has a “will”. Even Jesus’ will is different from Father’s will.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further , and fell on his face, and prayed , saying , O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will , but as thou wilt.

If Father’s will have predestined everything already there would be no point for Jesus to say “…not as I will but as thou will…”

 

[tern]

After the fall of angels I believe God wanted to eliminate disobedience once and forever and to have fellowship only with those spiritual beings who would genuinely like to be with him forever and ever.

And I think this is the reason why God created Universe and Earth.

A life with trials, tribulations and temptations is given to each and every person to see what the “will” of that person is really like – whether deep down he genuinely wants to be with God or not.

So that there would be no more disobedient Lucifer-like creatures

 

[zone]

Well sure He can turn and make any one us work towards
His will...noone can thwart His purposes.

But there is plenty of evidence He has given us in scripture how that is. Not that He has limits
but His doings are going to be limited by His good will and pleasure that was ordained before
time began.

God doesnt look down through time that would mean He learned something.
Thats not in line with His nature.

mike, i must settle on this and agree.
the corridors of time thing is [nearing?] blasphemy.
that can not be right.

i reject it on the ground you stated.
love you
zone

~

now what?

 

[Cobus]

I need to confess a sin I CHOSE to commit, BUT FATHER HAD ANOTHER WILL I SHOULD DO. My best way of explaining just how POWERFUL GOD MAKES us when HE DOES GIVE US TO CHRIST TO FILL US WITH HIMSELF is to SHOW what happened when GOD Stepped in.

My son of 12 was about 1 yearold, so this happened 11 years ago.


I stopped at a fuel-station to put diesel in our twin-cab Isuzu. All the station-attendants (they were all dark skinned men) were having fun with four darkskinned femals in a Mazda. Because the diesel pumps were about thirty meters away, and they all saw the Isuzu pull up for diesel, not one of them were very keen to come service us.

They all looked up and they all hoped the other will be the one to go help that white Isuzu. After about ten seconds, one man came to service us. He walked slow and when he reached the Isuzu, i asked him to put in R100:00 (Rands) worth, and that he should pease do it quickly.
I asked hm to hurry, because it was already 12:30 pm, and most shop close at 1 pm and there were still two shops I had to go to. As I already gave him the R100 note while I asked him to be quick, but did not give him my reason for being in a bit of a rush, this man picked up the nozzle and halfway to the filler-cap he looked at me and said.... "Hurry you say, the days you told us to hurry is long gone..."

I said to him, sorry you feel that way, but I am in a bit of a spot, I still have to visit two shops and they close in half an hour." He now continued but he made sure to show me HE WAS NOT GOING TO DO THIS QUICKLY. I quickly estimated the fuel cituation in the car, and realized I can fill up AFTER I been to the shops. So I leaned out the car and took the money from him, and told him I would put fuel in at another service station. He handed me the keays and put the nozzle back on the pump. I put the keys in the ignition and when he walked past my window he made a bad racist remark. This had me up and out of the Isuzu in a second.

I got out rolled my right hand in a tight fist and walked after the man. I KNEW I was going to flatten him with one powerful fist on the breastbone. I did this very well and once hit a man so hard I could see the underside of his shoes as he went summersaulting backwars off my porch.
I could even see how this man with his red and blue uniform was lying on the red paving AFTER I hit him.

As I walked up to this man my wife and my two teenage dughters were already covering their eyes, they also knew; Cobus was going to hit this man. About five meters from the Isuzu right in front of the car, i cought up with him, and as I was about to let him know he was going to have it now, I felt my fist unfold, the fighting in me VANISHED, and a CALM fell on me... I heard myself say.... MY FRIEND MY BIBLE TEACHES ME THAT IF I AM WRONG, I SHOULD APPOLOGIZE TO THE OTHER MAN, NO MATTER WHAT COLOUR HIS SKIN IS!...

The man turned around and said, SIR, I FALL IN SACK AND ASHES, I AM SO SORRY, PLEASE LET ME HELP YOU QUICKLY... I left that station in record time.... But while the fuel ws going into the tank, the man said.... My name is P, and sir please can i wash your windscreen, and check your tyres, and whenever you need fuel please come here I WANT TO SERVE YOU...

I have to admit, I did NOT get out of that Isuzu to talk! Let alone talk Bible. I got out to teach him a lesson with my fist. But God did not WANT or WILLED that! Satan wanted the fight! He said the man needed a lesson, and I got out to do the will of SATAN, NOT MINE and NOT GOD'S. But GOD STEPPED IN. I just felt a peace FELL ON ME. And that peace took all the fighting out of me. But now I realized God also worked on that man.... While he walked away, God must have shown him that this was NOT a racist man, but a righteouss man in a bit of a spot, all he needs is good service, what the attendant should give WITHOUT EXPLANATION FROM THE CUSTOMERS ANYWAY!
So as I (or rather God in me) showed GOD'S WILL IN ME (unwillingly after I made the wrong choice to fight) this man saw LOVE and PEACE in me, NOT FIGHTING what I had a moment before he turned around. And God did also tell him he was wrong to assume this man is a racist. So he was ready to apoologise anyway. That is the only way that man could have had such a quick change of heart as well.


I hope God bless this message to SHOW you all just how powerful God can be in a person. God's power over sin extends to the once sinning man. God's will for us TO BE IN CHRIST is way more powerful that the flesh that would love to sin. It even changes the old love to sin, to a LOVE TO BE PEACEFUL AND HOLY AND PERFECT! That is how GOD'S SEED KEEPS A PERSON FROM SINNING!


Eternally Grateful, you are so much closer to the Truth, now as you were a few years ago, or even this time last year. EVERY WORD AND VERSE GOD REVEALED to me, I can see hitting it's mark in you. Also in Zone, Abiding and others. Soon we will be ONE (PERFECTLY ONE) in the Body of Christ! Imagine being in a BODY where JESUS is the head. Remember that Body is 100% under the control of the HEAD which is JESUS, whose will would that body do, and how many LORDS are there that that body serve? ONLY GOD! That means that body is WITHOUT SIN!

 

[Cobus]

It is now 3:37 AM and we are off to go fish in GAURITSMOND in the sea. A rivermouth entry to the beautiful blue sea of Southern Cape. Yesterday the fishing was fun, but nothing to eat! Better be better today! God bless, and bye for now!

Love you all, and may GOD UNITE US IN HIM, AMEN!

 

[Abiding]

mike, i must settle on this and agree.
the corridors of time thing is [nearing?] blasphemy.
that can not be right.

i reject it on the ground you stated.
love you
zone

~

now what?

now what? hmmmmm let me go pray ill be right back

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - it looks like in many places He [forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things, whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.

John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46 but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.

I never said he was for God. I said he knew what the OT Scriptures said. God brought it to his mind, like he does many of us who are not following God, and we use those words against him.. He did not know what he was saying, because like many, he did not understand what the scriptures meant. Thats why he was able to be fooled. Just like Judas was fooled by Satan himself.

it doesn't look like he was quoting scripture, EG.
it looks like he was one of the haters, who was worried about Jesus being believed on..."and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation"

"So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs.[/b] 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”

"He did not say this of his own accord.....being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation"

looks like God ordained [forced? < scary word] him to prophesy that....kinda like he could make a jackass speak.

as for Jesus not knowing who was who, He knew all along Judas was a devil. He said so. Yet He said He chose him anyway.

like, for the corridors of time thing to work, there had to be an unknown number of possiblities of ppl who would obey or believe and those who wouldn't.
like how many rehearsals in God's mind did it take? (i.e.: Judas).

~

again, I think you are thinking way to much into it, it is not hard if we sit and ponder it. The only thing hard is understanding how God can do it. But then again, We have finite minds and can not yet quite fully comprehend the infinite mind of God.

this might be way out there, and it's strictly supposition on my part...i wonder if it's partly foreordination/predestination of very particular people (His chosen servants & prophets etc and possibly the bad guys)...then there is a general call is there anything that might support this or should i just drop it?

*ducks for cover*

strictly supposition
strictly supposition

not sure what you mean here to be honest? Are you talking about Israel. or just some of Isreal?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

expanding on this....in order for God to look into the corridors of time and see if Judas would believe, wouldn't there have had to be an alternate scenario(s) played out, then adjustments made based on the first outcome for Judas?

like, in Plan A for Judas - (he was given a chance, but it had to be something other than what we have written), he didn't believe, so Plan B was decided on because he didn't believe.

huh????

I don;t think this at all. God knew he would not believe, and chose him for this reason. It was Judas who set him up remember? at just the right time. This was God allowing satan to hammer the last nail in his coffin.

Satan used Judas, He used the pharisees. And he got what he wanted. And he thought he won. Imagine his thoughts when he heard Christ quote psalms 52. and how at that moment he finally figured out, God outsmarted him, and got him to do the very thing he said God would do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well sure He can turn and make any one us work towards
His will...noone can thwart His purposes.

But there is plenty of evidence He has given us in scripture how that is. Not that He has limits
but His doings are going to be limited by His good will and pleasure that was ordained before
time began.

God doesnt look down through time that would mean He learned something.
Thats not in line with His nature.

Amen. Jonah is a good view at this.

God is good at putting road blocks in our way so we can chose to follow him. But it does not mean we always will.

 

[Abiding]

This thread has really got me thinking.
I get in trouble when i think, so i shy away from it.
But its tempting ill tell ya.

 

[Cobus]

I get it easier to think this..... IF IT IS GOOD, IT HAS TO BE FROM GOD! It is easy to know what God's will is, God wants us to act like HE WOULD in any situation. We can learn from the TRUTH, God's Word, how HE WOULD ACT in any situation. So if I do "GOOD" in any situation, it is BECAUSE it is GOD WORKIN THROUGH AND IN AND ON ME! If it is BAD I do, I know it did NOT come from God, so I need to check myself on that and ask God for GUIDANCE in that matter!

Just this morning I received this.... Who decides what sin is? Who decides to steal is sin? Who makes the desicion to name any act sin, or for that matter righteouss? ONLY GOD! Not even Satan or the Scribes or the high priest of OLD can decide that, GOD DOES, AND ONLY HE DOES!

I remember when the disciples walked and ate with dirty hands, and how the "church" was very upset about that, but the Lord Jesus was not. They saw it as sin, and HE DID NOT! I think He is more qualified to judge actions, and that is why HIS SPIRIT is doing it today!

I NEVER have to worry what is there in my life I do wrong, or I do right, GOD SAID.... The Holy Spirit will convince me of sin and of righteousness. HE WILL ENLIGHTEN ME AND ALL HERE on what God's will is! And He will lead us out of the will of Satan, and into God's will. IT IS HIS JOB, and HE DOES IT VERY GOOD AND WELL!

 

[Abiding]

now what? hmmmmm let me go pray ill be right back

if you take my post and multiply the letters by 3 then divide that by the equidistant letter sequence
and then divide again by 3.14159 you will see the subliminal message. Sorry id im a tad complicated today.
I hope u have your crackerjax decoder ring

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if you take my post and multiply the letters by 3 then divide that by the equidistant letter sequence
and then divide again by 3.14159 you will see the subliminal message. Sorry id im a tad complicated today.
I hope u have your crackerjax decoder ring

let me guess. the number comes up to 666, and your post is the antiChrist!!

 

[Abiding]

let me guess. the number comes up to 666, and your post is the antiChrist!!

recalculate its 619 now write that out in long form in latin then read it backwards
your good EG.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

recalculate its 619 now write that out in long form in latin then read it backwards
your good EG.

lol you will have to help me with the latin thing. I don't know it.. I don't deal with that language..lol

 

[Abiding]

I know. Its just like I don't understand how I, being trapped in sin, was able to make the awesome decision to follow the Lord and no longer be trapped in my sin.

Why would I do that without help? How could I do that without help?

I don't know. Except I think it was His doing and not my own. I don't know for sure. Only He does.

Of coarse He helped. He gave us the gospel which has power to save.
We make the choice tho.....thats told throughout scripture
did we go find the gospel and understand it all alone? No
Did we get saved/regenerated first then believe? No

Repent! and believe and be converted.
As many as received Him, He gave the power.

 

[rauleetoe]

really?
ROMANS 5:6-8 NKJ
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
"sinners" and "ungodly" means non-believers. Jesus died for non-believers. That means God loves non-believers

This is true..yet its a waste of time i feel sadly to go on and on with those who embrace the reform theology prospective/expression as the only viable christian option, and that all others options apart from calvinism according to the calvinist this will make you in a sense a catholic, or even worse to them you will be painted as 'hardly christian'..
I have read enough about calvinist theology to see what picture it paints of God, and it is not a good view of God..and we wonder why people do not wish to follow God, why would they? They view of God is a marred and maligned mentally disturbed moral monster..and thats what they see.. Do i believe there are good calvinists out there who truly love God? Of course, yet many of their teachers paint anything that opposes reform theology as arminian(error number one), as not accepting God as sovereign(as if their view of determistic sovereignty aka God is behind everything that happens and all is for ordained or pre determined by the almighty aka who are you to question the potter),error number two..
and sadly the biggest error of reform theology is it must rely on the misappropiation of romans 9..as if the chapter started halfway, you have to read it with reform glasses to see it in the light of how high calvinists paint it to be.
I believe there are good people on both the arminian camp and the calvinist camp..sadly some here will see me and anyone who does not hold onto/appeal to divine determinism/reform theology/high calvinism as a christian..i can only pray for them, and hope they see i am not the enemy, and one day maybe we can get past our 'differences' and see there is more we have in common than not. My sincere belief and conviction is that reform theology paints God as something worse than satan himself..1 john2:2..2 peter 3:9..john 3:16-17(emphasis verse 17)and 1 timothy 2:4 clearly paint a different picture than what the one who keeps pointing to a fragment of romans 9 says..i choose to believe that he died for all men, how else can we spread the good news? God decreeing/forordaining some to die and be destined for hell and not giving them another option when all they needed was 'the grace' to accept the gospel and it was withheld is hardly loving and anything but good news..i just wish calvinists would market their theology as the bad news that it is..and not seek to make it 'good news' when the logical conclusions of what Calvin taught and his followers teach clearly show otherwise.

 

[rauleetoe]

Rick that doesnt explain much first the context doesnt seem to be talking
about Jesus ministry on earth although it would include that.

See id figure Jesus would have been in error saying what He said
taking the Father drawing business was added which i believe but
cant find it appropriate here or even helpful.

Also we cant let sentiment such as "the alternative tends toward pride"
drive our theology as i see from both camps.

He definitly said...He would have BUT they wouldnt.
So thats the story there.

I have to agree with you..i have heard it said to me that i am 'proud' or feel a sense of accomplishment that i saved myself..but like i said before, perhaps i did not say it the best way, but if i a lifeguard saves a man..the lifeguard is the one who did the saving..the man who was drowning would be a crazy and irrational man if he said, look i saved myself from drowning! he obviously would be pointing to the lifeguard saying..hey do not look at me, he did it..he saved me..i simply yielded to that..but he had to allow the lifeguard to save him..in a sense its that way with God, behold i stand at the door and knock says Jesus, not..behold i crouch beside the doorknob to pick the lock..thus forcing my way in..that's the picture that i believe reform theology paints.
And if anything in my honest opinion, the one who says he is 'elect' or chosen is the one who must be more carefull about pride..many who hold onto the calvinist view of predestination do not esteem holy and right living as much because after all, what is the need? If you have been set apart to be with God, then nothing can keep you from him..you cannot falter..you will be in his hand and never can be lost..so just keep on sinning! I say this from observing several of the calvinist camp who are friends or accuaintances and seeing how they do not emphasize the things of God as much..etc.

I have met one calvinist who pretty much said i needed to meet him, right there..right then to go discuss theology..and when i was unable to, he said 'do not waste my time'..sounds like a proud and haughty spirit right there.

 

[Grandpa]

Of coarse He helped. He gave us the gospel which has power to save.
We make the choice tho.....thats told throughout scripture
did we go find the gospel and understand it all alone? No
Did we get saved/regenerated first then believe? No

Repent! and believe and be converted.
As many as received Him, He gave the power.

We make the choice? Did Noah have a choice? Did Pharaoh? Did the Lord Jesus?

There must be a choice somewhere in this. I'm just not able to discern where His help stopped and my choice began. I would have chosen Him so much earlier if I would have known then what I know now...

Repent! Believe and be converted... All miracles of God.

I absolutely believe the bible. If it says we made a choice for God and that is why we are saved then that's the way it is and we must deal with it. My bible doesn't exactly word it that way.

Is belief a choice? It seems like it to us. But can you believe differently by an act of will?