Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[rauleetoe]

We make the choice? Did Noah have a choice? Did Pharaoh? Did the Lord Jesus?

There must be a choice somewhere in this. I'm just not able to discern where His help stopped and my choice began. I would have chosen Him so much earlier if I would have known then what I know now...

Repent! Believe and be converted... All miracles of God.

I absolutely believe the bible. If it says we made a choice for God and that is why we are saved then that's the way it is and we must deal with it. My bible doesn't exactly word it that way.

Is belief a choice? It seems like it to us. But can you believe differently by an act of will?

sounds like you are merely playing word games grandpa..like it talks about in 1 timothy 6:5..
the bible says therefore choose life..in deuteronomy 30:19..do you believe this or will you pick what scriptures you can keep pointing to and only pointing to that seem to defend your reform theology?
If you cannot make a choice, then God is merely playing games with you when he says repent and turn from your ways when you clearly cannot if you have been decreed to go to hell from the foundations/beginning of time..
yea, sounds like a cruel mind game..it would be very disingenuous of God to do that and is against his nature..no he does not contradict himself..read john 3:17..for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world..but clearly this other message..this bad news of calvinism teaches that is what he does, all you got are several scriptures to point to and keep returning to that are the foundation of reform theology..but if you start romans 9 at verse one, and read on through..clearly your tulip is obliterated when Paul says how he wishes he would be cut off so that his fellow countrymen could be saved..if Paul was a calvinist, why would he not be praising God for those who are predetermined to sent to hell? After all this is as you would say..supposedly bring God glory..if nothing else he should be willing to accept it as God's will and not say 'absurd things' like oh i wish that i myself were cut off for them!

think about it..

 

[rauleetoe]

We make the choice? Did Noah have a choice? Did Pharaoh? Did the Lord Jesus?

There must be a choice somewhere in this. I'm just not able to discern where His help stopped and my choice began. I would have chosen Him so much earlier if I would have known then what I know now...

Repent! Believe and be converted... All miracles of God.

I absolutely believe the bible. If it says we made a choice for God and that is why we are saved then that's the way it is and we must deal with it. My bible doesn't exactly word it that way.

Is belief a choice? It seems like it to us. But can you believe differently by an act of will?

john 10:18..have you read this ever sir?

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." NIV

luke 22:42.."Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."NIV

in other words..he pleaded with Father God, saying..if there is another way..let that option be taken, if there are any other measures..

john10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

he could have chosen not to die..he could have removed himself from that cross and angels wouldve been on standby..but he paid the price by choice..

these scriptures i think you have overlooked, obviously Jesus chose to give up his own life for us all..
so look them up..they should be in your bible also..since you say you believe the Bible, here is one more for you..
Romans 9 is not the only scripture in the bible.

all scripture is profitable..
2 timothy 3:16

 

[Grandpa]

sounds like you are merely playing word games grandpa..like it talks about in 1 timothy 6:5..
the bible says therefore choose life..in deuteronomy 30:19..do you believe this or will you pick what scriptures you can keep pointing to and only pointing to that seem to defend your reform theology?
If you cannot make a choice, then God is merely playing games with you when he says repent and turn from your ways when you clearly cannot if you have been decreed to go to hell from the foundations/beginning of time..
yea, sounds like a cruel mind game..it would be very disingenuous of God to do that and is against his nature..no he does not contradict himself..read john 3:17..for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world..but clearly this other message..this bad news of calvinism teaches that is what he does, all you got are several scriptures to point to and keep returning to that are the foundation of reform theology..but if you start romans 9 at verse one, and read on through..clearly your tulip is obliterated when Paul says how he wishes he would be cut off so that his fellow countrymen could be saved..if Paul was a calvinist, why would he not be praising God for those who are predetermined to sent to hell? After all this is as you would say..supposedly bring God glory..if nothing else he should be willing to accept it as God's will and not say 'absurd things' like oh i wish that i myself were cut off for them!

think about it..

I know what the bible says. If anyone was able to do what deuteronomy says and "choose life" then Why did the Lord Jesus Die on the Cross?? Its because they weren't able to perform it. Someone had to defeat our enemy for us because we were not able on our own. We could not merely "choose life".

Was that a cruel mind game or did it serve a purpose? His ways are far above your ways. His understanding is far above your understanding.

Paul doesn't know God's whole plan any more than you or I do. I haven't seen anything in the bible that contradicts calvins theology. There are things that make me question what I think I know about it, but I always resign myself to erring on the side of God's sovereignty and not men's free will.

It would appear the only thing free will is good for is choosing which sin will be your favorite.

If you would desire to be free of this sin that besets you, you must be willing to lay down your will and accept His Work in your life.

If it makes you feel better to believe it was your work that caused God to act in your behalf than I leave you to that.

I just don't personally believe that way.

 

[Grandpa]

john 10:18..have you read this ever sir?

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." NIV

luke 22:42.."Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."NIV

in other words..he pleaded with Father God, saying..if there is another way..let that option be taken, if there are any other measures..

john10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

he could have chosen not to die..he could have removed himself from that cross and angels wouldve been on standby..but he paid the price by choice..

these scriptures i think you have overlooked, obviously Jesus chose to give up his own life for us all..
so look them up..they should be in your bible also..since you say you believe the Bible, here is one more for you..
Romans 9 is not the only scripture in the bible.

all scripture is profitable..
2 timothy 3:16

Gods plan is never thwarted by mens free will. If you can solve that dilemma at the same time proving our free will is the cause and driving force behind our lives and God's plan itself, by using the bible, I am definitely willing to hear it.

 

[zone]

We make the choice? Did Noah have a choice? Did Pharaoh? Did the Lord Jesus.
There must be a choice somewhere in this. I'm just not able to discern where His help stopped and my choice began. I would have chosen Him so much earlier if I would have known then what I know now...
Repent! Believe and be converted... All miracles of God.
I absolutely believe the bible. If it says we made a choice for God and that is why we are saved then that's the way it is and we must deal with it. My bible doesn't exactly word it that way.
Is belief a choice? It seems like it to us. But can you believe differently by an act of will?

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Gods plan is never thwarted by mens free will. If you can solve that dilemma at the same time proving our free will is the cause and driving force behind our lives and God's plan itself, by using the bible, I am definitely willing to hear it.

Motivated free will is part of the cause and driving force behind our lives and God's plan itself, because He motivates us, or we can choose to be motivated by another. I see that we are in the best case scenario, and very valuable to God because of motivated free will. The works and doctrine are not our own, but Gods, we simply approve of those works and doctrine, and need help to perfom those works and have correct doctrine. We are nothing without God of course, but we have the choice to approve of Light, or approve of darkness, and that choice is motivated by a spirit.

 

[Grandpa]

Motivated free will is part of the cause and driving force behind our lives and God's plan itself, because He motivates us, or we can choose to be motivated by another. I see that we are in the best case scenario, and very valuable to God because of motivated free will. The works and doctrine are not our own, but Gods, we simply approve of those works and doctrine, and need help to perfom those works and have correct doctrine. We are nothing without God of course, but we have the choice to approve of Light, or approve of darkness, and that choice is motivated by a spirit.

That is something that I can agree with. That is more along the lines of what I experience. The Lord leads and I follow.

Can I fail? Only if I rely on me and not the Lord Jesus Christ. If the schoolmaster taught me anything it was that.

 

[rauleetoe]

Gods plan is never thwarted by mens free will. If you can solve that dilemma at the same time proving our free will is the cause and driving force behind our lives and God's plan itself, by using the bible, I am definitely willing to hear it.

If you define free will by the extreme notion and assumption that free will equates to God being not sovereign and you define sovereignty as to be divine determinism included in it then i can see why you think that..no, God allows things but that is not his perfect will..did God kill those kids the other day in the school..was he behind it? If you are to believe in divine determinism..that God is behind every single small detail that happens then yes, according to reform theology he did..
But how does that get him off the hook for causing sin? it cannot..
so why would he say choose life..yes..Jesus came afterwards..your point? We still have to each accept the free gift of God, as it says in Romans..behold i stand at the door and knock..how is that equate to behold i stand and pick the lock,or force my way in?

 

[rauleetoe]

I know what the bible says. If anyone was able to do what deuteronomy says and "choose life" then Why did the Lord Jesus Die on the Cross?? Its because they weren't able to perform it. Someone had to defeat our enemy for us because we were not able on our own. We could not merely "choose life".

Was that a cruel mind game or did it serve a purpose? His ways are far above your ways. His understanding is far above your understanding.

Paul doesn't know God's whole plan any more than you or I do. I haven't seen anything in the bible that contradicts calvins theology. There are things that make me question what I think I know about it, but I always resign myself to erring on the side of God's sovereignty and not men's free will.

It would appear the only thing free will is good for is choosing which sin will be your favorite.

If you would desire to be free of this sin that besets you, you must be willing to lay down your will and accept His Work in your life.

If it makes you feel better to believe it was your work that caused God to act in your behalf than I leave you to that.

I just don't personally believe that way.

Sin? how did sin enter your response..ok Grandpa..let us talk without name calling or accusing..first off, lets get this straight..
i said it before..for your sake and others sake..i say it again..
arminian theology appeals to God's goodness and love..that is the heart of arminian theology, after that obviously the secondary part is libertarian free will(free will that is given of course by God, is God's doing..if he even leads us, its never to do evil or sin..after all God is holy correct?)
So, do you then think if somebody does not accept calvinism that is in a sense rejecting the gospel? I ask this because some calvinists do..some do not..trying to see where you are coming from with that.

It would be cruel to say as it says in 1john 2:2 that Jesus died not just for our sins only..but for the sins of the whole world..or as in Paul said in Romans11:32 that he locked up all in disobedience so he could have mercy upon all.
Jesus dying on the cross was never said by me to be a mind game..but he chose, once again..you did not answer the scriptures i showed you..which should be in your bible too, regarding his choice to lay his own life down, for all men..for whosoever will accept him(not the 'elect') john 3:16..emphasis on verse 17..
When did i say i am justifying sin? or have a theology that justifies sin, if anything a person who believes in personal human responsibility aka anyone who does not believe and adhere to reform theology the emphasis is that our lives our not our own, and that grace is nothing to toy with, and we should seek to live a life that pleases God..would you not agree with me that it is a good thing to do?
So, if God is Holy, which he is..he cannot even be associated with sin..if he somehow predetermined the fall or any sin for that matter..he is 'connected' to it somehow, he is an accessory to the sin..and no response whatever whether it's 'God knows more than you do'(clearly he knows more than you or I or Piper,or calvin..whoever) Or the response i hear often 'who are you to question God' I am not questioning God, i am questioning the picture of God painted by your soteriological view of God according to Calvinism..which with all respect Grandpa does not paint God to be in a very good light..I simply wish you could accept that is the definite and logical conclusion that your theology brings. There is no way Calvinism is good news..and if you believe otherwise, please explain to me how forordaining some to die and they have no other choice in the matter, they could not even choose for 'grace' was withheld for them, and somehow this brings God glory?
So you will say, Arminianism is man centered..which it is not, what could be more man centered than making God needing man to bring him glory?! He did not need us, he is glorious without you..without me..the rocks would give him glory, what he wants..not needs is for us to give him glory..but trust me, if you do not..if i do not..the very rocks, the very creation will give him praise and glory!

so..once again, i never said i am justifying sin..show me where i said this, and i will admit my wrong, but you will not find it..for i never said it..so let us stick to the subject matter at hand if we can do so..
so, when you clearly make a bold statement, i am saying this in the nicest way I can..let's talk about the scriptures i have presented..do not make rash vain accusations that i am somehow living in sin, or making mysef to know more than God..if we are to have a discussion, lets do so civilly.
Thank you..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know what the bible says. If anyone was able to do what deuteronomy says and "choose life" then Why did the Lord Jesus Die on the Cross??
Its because they weren't able to perform it. Someone had to defeat our enemy for us because we were not able on our own. We could not merely "choose life".

Because it was the only way we could be saved. We could not work our way to heaven, someone had to do the work for us. Before Christ died, we could not choose life, because nothing we could have done would help us be alive. We could choose all we want, it would not help.

Was that a cruel mind game or did it serve a purpose? His ways are far above your ways. His understanding is far above your understanding.

Paul doesn't know God's whole plan any more than you or I do. I haven't seen anything in the bible that contradicts calvins theology. There are things that make me question what I think I know about it, but I always resign myself to erring on the side of God's sovereignty and not men's free will.

It would appear the only thing free will is good for is choosing which sin will be your favorite.

If you would desire to be free of this sin that besets you, you must be willing to lay down your will and accept His Work in your life.

If it makes you feel better to believe it was your work that caused God to act in your behalf than I leave you to that.

I just don't personally believe that way.

What work> faith is not our work, it is the work of God. Trusting in the work of Christ is not a work. it is a choice, to trust God, or trust self. those are our two options. Christ died so everyone could be saved, but he s not just going to save you, he want you to want to be saved, or try to do it on your own. That is why no one has an excuse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is something that I can agree with. That is more along the lines of what I experience. The Lord leads and I follow.

Can I fail? Only if I rely on me and not the Lord Jesus Christ. If the schoolmaster taught me anything it was that.

I agree 100%. And also remember, The schoolmaster would have no purpose if we do not have free will. Because it would never lead us to God. God would just do whatever people say he does to make them saved, and make others not saved.

 

[Grandpa]

Sin? how did sin enter your response..ok Grandpa..let us talk without name calling or accusing..first off, lets get this straight..
i said it before..for your sake and others sake..i say it again..
arminian theology appeals to God's goodness and love..that is the heart of arminian theology, after that obviously the secondary part is libertarian free will(free will that is given of course by God, is God's doing..if he even leads us, its never to do evil or sin..after all God is holy correct?)
So, do you then think if somebody does not accept calvinism that is in a sense rejecting the gospel? I ask this because some calvinists do..some do not..trying to see where you are coming from with that.

It would be cruel to say as it says in 1john 2:2 that Jesus died not just for our sins only..but for the sins of the whole world..or as in Paul said in Romans11:32 that he locked up all in disobedience so he could have mercy upon all.
Jesus dying on the cross was never said by me to be a mind game..but he chose, once again..you did not answer the scriptures i showed you..which should be in your bible too, regarding his choice to lay his own life down, for all men..for whosoever will accept him(not the 'elect') john 3:16..emphasis on verse 17..
When did i say i am justifying sin? or have a theology that justifies sin, if anything a person who believes in personal human responsibility aka anyone who does not believe and adhere to reform theology the emphasis is that our lives our not our own, and that grace is nothing to toy with, and we should seek to live a life that pleases God..would you not agree with me that it is a good thing to do?
So, if God is Holy, which he is..he cannot even be associated with sin..if he somehow predetermined the fall or any sin for that matter..he is 'connected' to it somehow, he is an accessory to the sin..and no response whatever whether it's 'God knows more than you do'(clearly he knows more than you or I or Piper,or calvin..whoever) Or the response i hear often 'who are you to question God' I am not questioning God, i am questioning the picture of God painted by your soteriological view of God according to Calvinism..which with all respect Grandpa does not paint God to be in a very good light..I simply wish you could accept that is the definite and logical conclusion that your theology brings. There is no way Calvinism is good news..and if you believe otherwise, please explain to me how forordaining some to die and they have no other choice in the matter, they could not even choose for 'grace' was withheld for them, and somehow this brings God glory?
So you will say, Arminianism is man centered..which it is not, what could be more man centered than making God needing man to bring him glory?! He did not need us, he is glorious without you..without me..the rocks would give him glory, what he wants..not needs is for us to give him glory..but trust me, if you do not..if i do not..the very rocks, the very creation will give him praise and glory!

so..once again, i never said i am justifying sin..show me where i said this, and i will admit my wrong, but you will not find it..for i never said it..so let us stick to the subject matter at hand if we can do so..
so, when you clearly make a bold statement, i am saying this in the nicest way I can..let's talk about the scriptures i have presented..do not make rash vain accusations that i am somehow living in sin, or making mysef to know more than God..if we are to have a discussion, lets do so civilly.
Thank you..

James 1:13-20
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.


The Christian says in his heart, not my will but the Fathers will be done.

 

[rauleetoe]

James 1:13-20
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.


The Christian says in his heart, not my will but the Fathers will be done.

No one is invoking wrath sir..remember you said i was justifying sin..which i never said, which in an essence is accusatory..I find it a common practice of many calvinists to resort to name calling or calling anyone a heretic who opposes them..please do not do this..
No one is disagreeing with you that the gift of God is in Jesus Christ our Lord..
The Christian says in his heart? Yes..but do you not understand that divine determinism is the heart of Calvinism/reform theology? Even Jesus showed this when i clearly showed that he wrestled with what was the only option to save us from our own sin..but he did ask God if there was any other option to be used, if there was another way..he said, nevertheless but not my will..
So, i am just trying to understand how one who believes in divine determinism says that the christian does anything since according to calvinism, God does it..any less than God doing it according to what Calvin taught would be 'man centered'..right?

Or is there leeway to this calvinism? Last time i read the heart of calvinism is very much all about absolute divine determinism..even the mild or moderate calvinist cannot escape that inevitable foundation stone in their theological persuation!