Doctrinal Ism-ites

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T

Therapon

Guest
#1
Many people claim to be Bible prophecy experts. It isn’t so. They are actually "ism" experts: Preter-ism, Historic-ism, Dispensational-ism, or some other "ism." And it’s a tragedy because those "isms" have closed their minds to any meaningful studies in Bible prophecy for hundreds of years! With"isms" in place, they never noticed when, after 1967, God actually opened His prophetic books for the first time in history.

I’m reminded of one church leader who typifies the problem. When I met this ism-ite, he was just bubbling over with the usual gossip about who THE antichrist might be, when THE tribulation was going to begin and whether there was going to be a pre, mid or post trib rapture. I asked if we could go to a blackboard. When there, we opened our Bibles and read . . .

1Cor 15:51-52 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

On his blackboard I scratched in all caps, "LAST TRUMPET," and asked, "You believe the Church will be taken to be with the Lord at the last trumpet, don’t you?"

"Of course, that’s common knowledge," he replies, smiling.

"Great, then you also believe there can’t be any trumpets after the last trumpet?"

"Sure," he says a bit weakly; probably guessing where I was headed.

"Well then," I said, "If the Church is going to be on earth until the last trumpet, we’re going to be here through six of the seven trumpets in Revelation."

"Oh no," he replies, "the seven trumpets of Revelation are trumpets of judgment and they come after that trumpet in Corinthians."

That led me to ask, "Are you saying trumpets will be blown after the last trumpet? Isn’t that contradicting a plain declaration of Scripture?"

"The last trumpet in Corinthians has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation," he says with conviction.

"Well then, unless I misunderstand you, what the Bible says is the last trumpet isn’t really the last trumpet." His view seemed so unlikely I just had to ask, "Is that what you really believe?"

"The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 refers to Levitical trumpets only," he said in his most pontifical voice, "Revelation’s trumpets take place during the Seven-Year Tribulation. That’s generally understood."

"Really? Well, let me see if I’ve got this straight. A trumpet in the New Testament, claiming to be the last, only refers to Old Testament trumpets, even though there are seven more trumpets in the New Testament?" What he was saying was so absurdly irrational I just had to ask, "What kind of exegetical slight-of-hand brought your denomination to that conclusion?"

You see the problem don’t you? Despite its irrationality, this young pastor couldn’t see past his church’s tradition. Now I’m not being critical of this young man and don’t doubt for a moment that he was doing the best he could, but like most church leaders, regardless of denomination, he could only see the Bible through his doctrinal filter.

In another church, I used a blackboard to graph the prophetic days. I showed this church’s pastor how Daniel predicted the coming of Islam 1200 years before Muhammad was born. I showed him how Revelation predicted the first Islamic Jihad, the Crusades, the birth of new Israel in 1948 and Jerusalem again under Jewish control in 1967. I graphed those fulfilled prophecies so clearly they were virtually impossible to dispute. From the way he responded, you’d have thought I’d just shot his favorite bird dog. In fact, he started screaming at me, and I do mean screaming . . .

"YOU’RE DOING AWAY WITH THE TRIBULATION!"

Pointing to the graphs, I said, "Please calm down, my friend, I’m not trying to do away with anything. I’m just showing you another way to look at those verses; a way that we can now prove, both scripturally and historically."

"YOU’RE DOING AWAY WITH THE TRIBULATION!"

He was nose to nose with me and shouting so loud my ears were ringing. Reasoning with him was out of the question; I’d just threatened his end-time "ism" and he was beyond reason. If he could have gathered a fist-waving mob, shouting "Blasphemy! Blasphemy!" like the Moslems do, doubtless he’d have done so.

Though that pastor was the noisiest example of doctrinal blindness in the church, unfortunately he was far from unique. Some time later, I chatted with a Christian author who had just written a humongous – in fact, a several hundred page – book on Bible prophecy. Thinking he might be interested, I showed him how the prophetic days had been fulfilled in new Israel. It seems that prophetic days didn’t conform to his "ism" either, and they certainly weren’t in his book, so he heatedly disagreed. Even after showing solid scriptural evidence and historically irrefutable proofs for the prophetic days, he kept on with his, "There’s no such thing as prophetic days."So how do you relate to someone who defends error when Scripture and known history dictates otherwise?

I tried a new approach: "OK, Henry, I can understand your total aversion to the prophetic day concept, so lets call them something else. How does‘marbles’ sound to you?"I showed him how the 1290 "marbles" of Daniel 12:11 predicted the coming of Islam 1200 years before Muhammad was born and how the 1260 "marbles" of Revelation 12:6 predicted the birth of new Israel in 1948 and the 42 months of "marbles" in Revelation11:2 predicted that Jerusalem would again be under Jewish control by 1967 . . . all three events predicted to the year! Then I said, "But you now have me convinced. I won't believe in prophetic days anymore. From now on, I'll believe in ‘prophetic marbles’, because those 'marbles' fit Scripture and nail the historic record right to the year."

Henry was not amused, sad to say, and no matter how simply explained, Henry still couldn’t hear truths that didn’t fit his end time"ism," even when you could positively prove them.

The above accounts may sound humorous, but really aren’t; I’m telling them to make a point: No blindness is as profoundly dark as the blindness we inflict upon ourselves, and experience leads me to believe that our Church leaders are in the forefront of that sightless parade. A little strong? Perhaps, but I’ve been teaching these same prophetic realities ever so gently – to little effect I might add – for over 30 years and something has to be done if we in the West are to survive as a free Christian people.

Jesus faced the same problem with the Pharisees of His day. He addressed it by saying, "By your traditions you make the word of God to no effect." The generally accepted end-time traditions of today also make the word of God to no effect. God is truth, and how well we serve Him is not determined by how artfully we can defend our cherished traditions, but on how willing we are to search out and follow the truth
 
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K

kenisyes

Guest
#2
Theology is supposed to be reason reflecting on faith. God gives the faith, we use our brains to give the reason. Which one do you think will be better?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#3
Cool a new one: 1967-Ism-ite......ill wait on the graph. :)
 
J

Jordache

Guest
#4
It's important that we all are open to hear other points of view. I'm not saying you have wishywashy convictions, but much of this is theory until with meet Jesus face to face. We may have great support for our theory, but much of it is still theory. One thing we must hold on to is what is important. My brother is a gungho dispensationalist... He believes in dispensations, no gifts, etc... and he will fight to the death. Now theirs a problem when you feel you must fight to the death with your own brother or sister in Christ. They shall know us by our love comes to mind. In the end, it doesn't matter when the rapture happens or if it happens, how many times you spoke in tongues, or whether you say in a pew and listened to hymns or danced before The Lord. What matters is Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was born a baby, died for you, rose for you to have victory over sin and abundant life now, and now sits at the right hand of the father awaiting our arrival.
Theology is not worth fighting over especially if it will cause a rift in your family. Jesus is still Jesus if you are pre-trib or post-trib. God is still on the throne whether you believe He heals today or not. Love your brothers. Don't cut them off at the knee.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#5
It's important that we all are open to hear other points of view. I'm not saying you have wishywashy convictions, but much of this is theory until with meet Jesus face to face. We may have great support for our theory, but much of it is still theory. One thing we must hold on to is what is important. My brother is a gungho dispensationalist... He believes in dispensations, no gifts, etc... and he will fight to the death. Now theirs a problem when you feel you must fight to the death with your own brother or sister in Christ. They shall know us by our love comes to mind. In the end, it doesn't matter when the rapture happens or if it happens, how many times you spoke in tongues, or whether you say in a pew and listened to hymns or danced before The Lord. What matters is Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was born a baby, died for you, rose for you to have victory over sin and abundant life now, and now sits at the right hand of the father awaiting our arrival.
Theology is not worth fighting over especially if it will cause a rift in your family. Jesus is still Jesus if you are pre-trib or post-trib. God is still on the throne whether you believe He heals today or not. Love your brothers. Don't cut them off at the knee.
I agree ill fight over good stirfry and maybe even brownies
but not eschatology. :)
 
W

webchatter

Guest
#6
I agree 100%. In fact, I have recently come to the conclusion that in my understanding the end time prophecies, as well as any human is able, that I must 1st understand the beginning of the Bible as well, to understand the end of it. I should thoroughly understand the beginning of mankind on earth, to understand mankind's ending on earth.
Adam & Eve had an advantage over us. They knew they were dealing with God one on one. Adam knew God made Eve, yet they both were led astray by demonic forces. Now I can see where even the elect can be decieved, regardless of their "closeness with God".
Please don't think that anyone who doesn't hold your view on the rapture is disregarding prophecy. I hope you start another thread about this .I agree that it is at the 7th trump, according to Scripture, Rev.11:15. Then verse 18 =God's wrath begins, which we were promised not to suffer. But I claim this is mid trib, but am open to correction. The 6 trumpets are not God's wrath according to Scripture then, because we will be here for their fulfillment.
The definition of "serpent", in the garden of Eden, is, " a snake from it's hiss, whisper a majic spell, divine enchanter, diligently observe." That seems to fit end times quite well.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#7
Theology is supposed to be reason reflecting on faith. God gives the faith, we use our brains to give the reason. Which one do you think will be better?
In my opinion, they are inseparable and interdepenant. You can have blind faith in a billygoat or a tree, but neither is reasonable. <smile>
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#8
Saying the 7th trump is the same as the last trump is really a wild speculation

Being off the earth before Gods wrath is poured out is as needful as Noah
being off earth during the last major judgement of Gods wrath
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#9
In my opinion, they are inseparable and interdepenant. You can have blind faith in a billygoat or a tree, but neither is reasonable. <smile>
I agree of course. But I tend to trust God to be true to His word and nature, more than I trust anyone's analysis (even my own) of God.

I really should amend my definition: Theology is reason reflecting on our faith in God. I think that takes care of the billy goat, the tree, and any other members of the animal, vegetable or mineral kingdoms. :D I've got icons on this box, so I don't have to type <smile>
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#10
It's important that we all are open to hear other points of view. I'm not saying you have wishywashy convictions, but much of this is theory until with meet Jesus face to face. We may have great support for our theory, but much of it is still theory.
That is no longer true. A theory is an unproven hypothesis, quickly forgotten when replaced by facts. The new nation of Israel was founded in 1948 and Jerusalem was freed of Gentile control in 1967. Until those events are factored into our understanding of Bible prophey, what we call eschatology is just pie-in-the-sky guesswork theology. However, the events of 1948 and 1967 did open Bible prophecy for the first time since Revelation was written. The result being: It can now be conclusively proven that both Preterism and Dispensationalism are false doctrines. Just because some people are unaware of these facts doesn't mean that everyone is unaware of them.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#11
I agree of course. But I tend to trust God to be true to His word and nature, more than I trust anyone's analysis (even my own) of God.

I really should amend my definition: Theology is reason reflecting on our faith in God. I think that takes care of the billy goat, the tree, and any other members of the animal, vegetable or mineral kingdoms. :D I've got icons on this box, so I don't have to type <smile>
I have icons, too, but never use them. Old habits die hard, I guess. I was on the net during old DOS days, long before Windows. Jusrt black and white, no color. 5 1/4 floppies. Really pedestrian modems (it would take an hour to doiwnload a MEG od data). Hard drives were tiny and cost a king's randsom. I even remember paying just shy of $500 for 1 Meg of RAM, which at the time would max out any computer on the planet.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#12
Saying the 7th trump is the same as the last trump is really a wild speculation

I'm not saying it on my own, the Bible says it . . .

Rev 10:6-7 ". . . there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
 
P

peterT

Guest
#13
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Last trumpet the seventh angel when he sounds Rv11

Is it just a coincidence, at the last trumpet in Rv11 that the dead are raised in the clouds after being killed by the beast?

Rv11 Is it just a coincidence at the last trumpet that the mystery of God should be finished.

Is it just a coincidence that they hear a voice saying Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud.

Is it just a coincidence that Jesus comes in the clouds?

Is it just a coincidence that the dead are raised first?

Is it just a coincidence that when the last trumpet will sounds, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, we shall all be changed.

Is it just a coincidence that 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days, he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
Is it just a coincidence 30 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds

What? is there two last trumpets.

What? Is there two lots of raising into the clouds.

What? is there two lots of raising the dead Immediately after the tribulation.

Or is it just a coincidence. I think not
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
113
#14
That is no longer true. A theory is an unproven hypothesis, quickly forgotten when replaced by facts. The new nation of Israel was founded in 1948 and Jerusalem was freed of Gentile control in 1967. Until those events are factored into our understanding of Bible prophey, what we call eschatology is just pie-in-the-sky guesswork theology. However, the events of 1948 and 1967 did open Bible prophecy for the first time since Revelation was written. The result being: It can now be conclusively proven that both Preterism and Dispensationalism are false doctrines. Just because some people are unaware of these facts doesn't mean that everyone is unaware of them.

I agree with much of your conviction but I fail to see how this x's out the dispensational view.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#15
I agree with much of your conviction but I fail to see how this x's out the dispensational view.
The Dispensational view falls because the verses used to support it, Dan 9:27, 12:11-12, Rev 11:2-4 and 12:6 were actually fulfilled in Israel in 1948 and 1967. Many are looking for a coming antichrist and debate whether there is going to be a pre, mid, or post trib rapture without ever questioning the quivering foundation upon which those debates aree based: the questionable validity of the seven-year great tribulation itself. There is no diorect biblical support for one, it's all interprative guesswork, you know, and now provably unfounded.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#16
The only error will be to accept man's interpretation of events.

For when the Messiah returns we will know him for the Bible is True.

All we witness now is mans attempt to deceive us for their evil agenda.

There is much to come to pass, my friends adhere to the Bible.

1948 was man gathering the Jewish people.

Let it be that Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah will do the gathering.



I do not buy into the leaders of this world, they are not for Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

all men be liars and Yahvah God be True and Almighty Forever.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#17
Matthew 24

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#18
The way I see it is that both and all perspectives which can be true at the same time, might be, but until we know if both and all are true, then we can only choose what we think is a safe perspective for us and others. The following is an example.

1Pe_4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

In this example, time can cease to exist, and exist at the same time, and both can be true. Is it time in the flesh that is no longer, time in earth, time in heaven, etc. I simply choose the safest perspective to tell people, and I also tell them in these type of things that I don't know for sure, but I choose this perspective because it doesn't contradict the word of God, and might be possible. In the same way, it's possible that a person can spend time in everlasting punishment/destruction/torment temporarily. The punishment/destruction/torment can be everlasting, but it's possible that not all who are in that everlasting destruction are there forever. The trumpets are the same way. It's possible that trumpets are also like time in the possibility of trumpets heard on earth, heaven, in flesh, in spirit, etc.

Truth is also what is known, and I myself do not know for sure concerning the last trumpet. I do know that there is a specific number of 144000 sealed at a certain point in this existence, and there is also a mulititude which appeared in heaven during the 6th seal, so it's possible for Christians/sealed spirits to be on and in earth at the same time that other Christians/sealed are not on earth during much of what is considered by many to be the great tribulation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
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#19
Disclaimer:
There will be though the time of Jacob's troubles otherwise known as the Great Tribulation a time of God's chastening Israel his chosen as mentioned in Daniel.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#20
The above accounts may sound humorous, but really aren’t; I’m telling them to make a point: No blindness is as profoundly dark as the blindness we inflict upon ourselves, and experience leads me to believe that our Church leaders are in the forefront of that sightless parade. A little strong? Perhaps, but I’ve been teaching these same prophetic realities ever so gently – to little effect I might add – for over 30 years and something has to be done if we in the West are to survive as a free Christian people.

Jesus faced the same problem with the Pharisees of His day. He addressed it by saying, "By your traditions you make the word of God to no effect." The generally accepted end-time traditions of today also make the word of God to no effect. God is truth, and how well we serve Him is not determined by how artfully we can defend our cherished traditions, but on how willing we are to search out and follow the truth
That is the problem these nations are not serving Yahvah God or Yahshua the Messiah in the west anymore than in the east, south or north.

What on earth do we want to continue here for any longer than we have to?

All things are coming to pass for the Harvest.

those that seek to save their life will lose it.

You see islam has the threat.. the biggest villains are the west.

Until we see that we will look at what we have been pointed towards by those appearing good but evil inwardly.

islam is playing its part in the evil rebellions agenda.