God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#21
or maybe I should put this way, God elects and then Jesus Laments over the ones God elected.
Isaiah 10:22
Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous

Jeremiah 44:14
None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.

Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

??
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#22
Isaiah 10:22
Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous

Jeremiah 44:14
None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.

Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

??
What? doesn't the bible say that God elected Israel?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#23
elect isnt always used in relation to salvation. Remnant is. please make a note of that
also Gods sovereignty seems so over used these days its as if it was His only attribute.
ya im still thinking whether i want to get into this discussion. Paltalk seems to be given
me enuf of this.
 
Last edited:
Feb 17, 2010
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#24
All saved people has eternal life. They already HAVE eternal life! LIFE ETERNAL. LIFE!!! What does that Life look like? What did God save them from? Does HE have to save them once, twice, three times or EVERY DAY, as long as they LIVE?

This is the thing that so many cannot get!If God saves a sinner, he is no sinner any longer! Oh they will come up with 1 john 1 :8 to 10, and twist it to their "FAITH". but even John the writer of 1 John 1 says in three places that saved ones CANNOT sin. So even in HIS writings the score to sin vs no sin is three to one in favour of NO SIN!

So many ask can sinless perfection be attained here on earth by a once red as scarlet sinner? Well whart CAN God achieve? Not the human, God! If God is the ONLY one that cannot sin, will HE become a sinner when HE lives in a sinner? Or will the sinner become HOLY AND PERFECT because God now lives in HIM?

This is the TRUTH... why can't a saved person sin? Let me rephraze.... Why is it IMPOSSIBLE for a saved person to sin? I asked God that question and the answer is written in the BIBLE! By the same person that wrote (inspired) the WHOLE BIBLE..... GOD!
GOD'S SEED REMAINETH IN THAT PERSON!

Every person that is BORN OF GOD, Born in EVERLASTING LIFE.... Has the SEED OF GOD IN HIM/HER.... And they CANNOT SIN BECAUSE they are BORN OF GOD! They are of the SAME SEED as GOD! God does not sow a single BAD seed. NONE!

The sinless perfection they are are NOT the seed they were when they were sinners, that was FLESH and the seed of their ALSO flesh fathers.... No to be BORN AGAIN, they are ALL BORN OF GOD!... And HE CANNOT SIN! Neither can they, becasue they ARE IN HIM and IN HIM IS NO SIN!

God says it so clearly.... HE is light, and IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS... God is righteousness, and in HIM IS NO SIN. God is LIFE, and in HIM IS NO DEATH.

Why Satan says many other things, but God is the ONE I believe. God says BE PERFECT, and HE WILL MAKE SURE EVERY ONE HE TOUCHES WILL BE PERFECT... Because AS GOD IS SO ARE THEY IN THIS WORLD! How is God?

I read some person asks if God still does this or that... Does God change? Does His salvation change? Does his sheep change? Does his shepard quality change? Does the sheep of God know their shepard? Do they KNOW His voice? Can they SEE their shepard? Are there ANY doubs who is HIS sheep? Does HE lead sheep that is NOT His to lead? Where does HE lead HIS sheep to? Does any of HIS sheep get lost and not SAVED? If he does save the one that was lost, is that one still lost?

Stop making the GOOD shepard out to be worthless and lame! And stop playing Gospel. Go to your knees and ask GOD TO SAVE YOU! I need God as much as ANY person, but at least I know this.... If God saves me, I will have HIM to take care of me! And I will have a GOOD shepard, that can really keep the LION AND EVIL OFF ME! I have this HUNGER in me that GOD'S WILL will be done in me.... Did God give me that hunger? I wonder if this thirst for righteousness will be filled? Well the God of promises said it will... Matthew 5. When will it be filled, HE KNOWS! Not even Satan can argue that, because SATAN canot touch the ones that was filled! 1 John 5:18. Satan CANNOT TOUCH God's sheep! Because HE IS THE SHEPARD!

Get it in your heads and hearts, God's sheep is untouchable, because HE IS THE SHEPARD that takes care of them. AND THEY ARE HIS SHEEP!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
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#25
It depends who you ask sir..

Yes He could choose..but if God sent someone to hell for no apparent reason but just because,it is a violation of his Holy Nature. God is then responsible for ordaining sin, and ceases to be Holy and good.

God gives us the ability to choose, it is called libertarian free will. Free will given by God to man because he values genuine relationship and seeks it to be true relationship between himself and man. Any relationship that is forced upon you ceases to be a true relationship, not a real relationship in plain english terms.

Who is elect? The believer who truly believes,and walks with God,the one who has repented is elect. Those who he knew would accept them, these, and all of these who accepted him were given the right to be his children!

How? By faith, by not resisting his Holy Spirit.
yes, fallen man 'freely' chooses, he freely chooses that which pleases His fallen nature. He chooses that which satisfies his lusts, builds his pride and adds to his self survival. He hides from the Light, even hates the Light because his deeds are evil. It takes a work of God's mercy and grace on an individual to bring about repentance and faith.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#26
yes, fallen man 'freely' chooses, he freely chooses that which pleases His fallen nature. He chooses that which satisfies his lusts, builds his pride and adds to his self survival. He hides from the Light, even hates the Light because his deeds are evil. It takes a work of God's mercy and grace on an individual to bring about repentance and faith.
Nobody here denies that without God it is not possible..
I simply appeal that we are not automations..
If the concept of humans being robots sits well with you and God can still be good and Holy with this notion..then you have more faith than me or something..i dunno. It just does not sit well with me..
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
113
#27
Nobody here denies that without God it is not possible..
I simply appeal that we are not automations..
If the concept of humans being robots sits well with you and God can still be good and Holy with this notion..then you have more faith than me or something..i dunno. It just does not sit well with me..
I never said 'automatons', He chooses freely, f-r-e-e but the catch is he chooses that which accords with his fallen nature. If you offer a lamb or a pot of vegetables to a tiger guess which one he will 'freely' choose?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
Yes, but the question was concerning God's freewill vs. man's self election.
"Now it's our choice" means we decide?
We decide on our own?
Or does God give us the faith to believe?
That is the question.
this is sort of twisted question. Can man will himself to eternal life? No, If he could Why did Christ come?

Christ came as Jesus himself said, the whole purpose of his coming was that God so LOVED the world, he gave his only son to die in our place. they WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIS shall NEVER PARISH, but HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

God did the work. He paid the price in full. He is offering his gift to all mankind, all he asks is that man freely receive it. he is not going to force his love on anyone, nor would he reject anyone who freely receives it. It is ALL OF GOD.. But we have to make a choice. It was Gods will from the beginning.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#29
We have free choice and apart from God's election we choose NO! to God.

Then God is a liar, He is NOT a God of love, he is a God of forced labor. He is a respecter of persons. He is everything Satan said he was.

God is a God of love, He died so everyone would have a chance, even when someone rejects him to the point of death. God still gets the glory, Because God offered him his gift. It is not Gods fault they person rejected him, Thus the person will have no excuse.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
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#30
We have free choice and apart from God's election we choose NO! to God.



Then God is a liar, He is NOT a God of love, he is a God of forced labor. He is a respecter of persons. He is everything Satan said he was.

God is a God of love, He died so everyone would have a chance, even when someone rejects him to the point of death. God still gets the glory, Because God offered him his gift. It is not Gods fault they person rejected him, Thus the person will have no excuse.

EG, I think you misunderstood Crossnote, or I did...

We (as in all humans) have free choice and [ you agree right?]
apart from God's election we (as in all humans) choose NO! to God. [meaning that those who don't choose God are apart from the election of God, because of their choice which is NO!]

Crossnote, did understand you correctly?
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#31

Then God is a liar, He is NOT a God of love, he is a God of forced labor. He is a respecter of persons. He is everything Satan said he was.

God is a God of love, He died so everyone would have a chance, even when someone rejects him to the point of death. God still gets the glory, Because God offered him his gift. It is not Gods fault they person rejected him, Thus the person will have no excuse.
Sorry bro don't get me wrong when I see debates n ppl use term "then God is a lier" really buggs me,cuz I see both sides saying the same lil cliche, calling the same God we beleiver lier.

In saying that I beleive that unless God changes men's heart,he will never beleive
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#32
:rolleyes:i think im gona have to get me a universal translater
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#33
EG, I think you misunderstood Crossnote, or I did...

We (as in all humans) have free choice and [ you agree right?]
apart from God's election we (as in all humans) choose NO! to God. [meaning that those who don't choose God are apart from the election of God, because of their choice which is NO!]

Crossnote, did understand you correctly?

ok. I thought he meant apart from gods election we say no. with his election we say yes.. I might have misunderstood him though.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
Sorry bro don't get me wrong when I see debates n ppl use term "then God is a lier" really buggs me,cuz I see both sides saying the same lil cliche, calling the same God we beleiver lier.

In saying that I beleive that unless God changes men's heart,he will never beleive
and I would agree. But then again, I believe God tries to change every mans heart. it is us who harden our heart in unbelief, and Paul said in romans 1 and eph 4.. It is those who open their heart that believe
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#35
God does not force people to beleive,He is a God of love who changes a wicked men heart,to love him.sure its a gift cuz we were sinners n would never come to light.ain't we glad that he found us
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#36
God does not force people to beleive,He is a God of love who changes a wicked men heart,to love him.sure its a gift cuz we were sinners n would never come to light.ain't we glad that he found us

I disagree. that is why he tells us to be a light. so God can use us to draw people to him. The reason people are drawn to the light is we were all in darkness. and the light drew us. Some people just do not realise they are in darkness.
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#37

I disagree. that is why he tells us to be a light. so God can use us to draw people to him. The reason people are drawn to the light is we were all in darkness. and the light drew us. Some people just do not realise they are in darkness.
Its true that ppl don't realise that they r in darkness cuz they r blind
N only the way they can see is if someone opens their eyes,n the only one who can is Christ.only he can regenerate a person.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#38
Its true that ppl don't realise that they r in darkness cuz they r blind
N only the way they can see is if someone opens their eyes,n the only one who can is Christ.only he can regenerate a person.
I agree. But he can not regenerate a person unless he first removes the thing which causes death, Which is the penalty of sin. And he does this by justification. Which occurs only through faith.

Thus we have the law, which is our schoolmaster. And the light, which is Christ. which brings us to him, If we repent, we are justified, and by God regenerate due to this justification.
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#39
I agree. But he can not regenerate a person unless he first removes the thing which causes death, Which is the penalty of sin. And he does this by justification. Which occurs only through faith.

Thus we have the law, which is our schoolmaster. And the light, which is Christ. which brings us to him, If we repent, we are justified, and by God regenerate due to this justification.
Its true,but who gives faith?what breaks a sinners heart to repent,
Wow its midnight Got to sleep
Thank u for being gracious even though we might have different views,
God bless
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#40
Its true,but who gives faith?what breaks a sinners heart to repent,
Wow its midnight Got to sleep
Thank u for being gracious even though we might have different views,
God bless
Who give faith? Who did the work required for us to even have faith.

What breaks a sinners heart to repent? Hopefully the law, the conviction of the Spirit. and a lack of unbelief. Which are offered to ALL mankind.

Yes, get some sleep. Thank you for being gracious also :)