God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[crossnote]

Jn 6:44 No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every one that has heard from the Father himself , and has learned of him , comes to me;

Rom 9:18 So then, to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say to me then, Why does he yet find fault? for who resists his purpose?
Rom 9:20 Aye, but thou, O man, who art *thou* that answerest again to God? Shall the thing formed say to him that has formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?
Rom 9:22 And if God, minded to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory,
Rom 9:24 us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst the Jews, but also from amongst the nations?

you may call God a liar or respecter of persons or unloving etc., that's how our fallen reason pits itself against God's revealed Word.
He reveals 'election'...you have to deal with that, He reveals predestination ...you have to deal with that all without calling God names.

 

[crossnote]

This thread is merely asking the question:
Does God have a choice.
Does God actually have a choice in salvation, or is it left up to mankind.
After He(God), did His work.
Who elect's who?
And how do they go about it?
This is the question of this thread.

Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[zone]

and I would agree. But then again, I believe God tries to change every mans heart. it is us who harden our heart in unbelief, and Paul said in romans 1 and eph 4.. It is those who open their heart that believe

EG
i don't want to argue. and i won't.

"God tries to"?

i wonder how we deal with these kinds of passages?
love ya bro

...............................

Deuteronomy 14:12
Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me

Cyrus, God’s Instrument

1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
2 “I will go before you
and level the exalted places,a
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Isaiah 41:9
I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isaiah 42:2
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street;

Isaiah 43:1
But now, this is what the LORD says--he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.

Isaiah 44:1
"But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.


................


just a side note to ponder - "The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations

Matthew 12:18
"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Isaiah 42:2
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street;

Matthew 12:19
He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;

 

[Bookends]

ok. I thought he meant apart from gods election we say no. with his election we say yes.. I might have misunderstood him though.

no, maybe I got it wrong....I'll still give him his "Like" ding tho, because I like him.

 

[crossnote]

no, maybe I got it wrong....I'll still give him his "Like" ding tho, because I like him.

you can't take it back now since I was preordained to give you one. naw naw naw naw nawww

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG
i don't want to argue. and i won't.

"God tries to"?

i wonder how we deal with these kinds of passages?
love ya bro

...............................

Deuteronomy 14:12
Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

spoken of the children of Isreal. You know. the ones who continued to played the harlot Against God.. and rejected him? Yep he chose them.

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Amen. Nothing here which would suggest we do not have free will though

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations

Spoken of Christ, who through his own free will will do what God sent him to do so we can chose of our own free will to receive his offer in faith, or reject it in unbelief.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me

Spoken of Cyrus who god used as an instrument to punish isreal. Still no rejection of free will. Cyrus did what God wanted by his own free will



Cyrus, God’s Instrument

1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
2 “I will go before you
and level the exalted places,a
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Isaiah 41:9
I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

spoken of the future restoration of Isreal. Again, where is freewill refuted?

..............

just a side note to ponder - "The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations

Matthew 12:18
"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Isaiah 42:2
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street;

Matthew 12:19
He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;

Speaks of Christ. I still do not see your point.

 

[RickShafer]

this is sort of twisted question. Can man will himself to eternal life? No, If he could Why did Christ come?

Christ came as Jesus himself said, the whole purpose of his coming was that God so LOVED the world, he gave his only son to die in our place. they WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIS shall NEVER PARISH, but HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

God did the work. He paid the price in full. He is offering his gift to all mankind, all he asks is that man freely receive it. he is not going to force his love on anyone, nor would he reject anyone who freely receives it. It is ALL OF GOD.. But we have to make a choice. It was Gods will from the beginning.

Who gives us the "will" to choose Jesus Christ?
How is that question 'twisted'?
Is there still some thing that draws us to the Father through the Son apart from Him? - (e.g. - in our own power)
Since it is such a twisted question I expect a twisted answer, - (which I know I will get from you).

Is it the Word? (Many have heard the Word and gone away sorrowfully, or rejecting it in outright rebellion)
What draws the redeemed?
God's freewill or man's?

 

[RickShafer]

And if it is God, is it not election?
And if it is mankind, is it not his/her own election?
Who elects who?
Who made who?
Who are servants, and who are masters.
Who was made a little lower than the angels to bring salvation to His elect?
We are all (mankind), either servants to God or mammon.
We are all servants of one or the other.
Now, ......do we choose?
Or is faith,-(even the faith in Jesus); a gift?
Or is it our choice?
Many verses backing up one proclamation here, so watch your step.

 

[pickles]

This thread is merely asking the question:
Does God have a choice.
Does God actually have a choice in salvation, or is it left up to mankind.
After He(God), did His work.
Who elect's who?
And how do they go about it?
This is the question of this thread.

This scripture came to mind when I read your posting.

2 Tim 2 :11
You can depend on this: If we died with Him we shall also live with Him;
12 If we hold out to the end we shall also reign with Him.
But if we deny Him , he will deny us.
13 If we are unfaithful He will still remain faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself.

The continueing scriptures I am posting just because I liked it and figure it is good for us all to be reminded.

2 tim 2:14 Keep reminding people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about mere words. This does no good and can be the ruin of those who listen.

God bless
pickles

 

[Cobus]

Ricky, Ricky, You ask such good questions.... If God says HE CHOSE ME, I did not CHOOSE Him, who did the choosing? Do I have a choice! Did Saul have a choice? God PREDESTINED Saul to be the Apostle for the Gentiles.... He was on his way to kill and capture more Christians, PERSECUTING JESUS HIMSELF....

Did Paul ask God to have a light come down and Jesus speaking to him? Did he wake up that morning and said... Today I will repent after I had a discussion with Jesus? Does God know who will "choose" Him, even before the earth was made?

There are so many thing to ask about the choice of man.... Why was the book of life written even before the earth was made? If time does not exist with God then it is now billions of years AFTER Adam sinned, but also billions of years before Adam was born. God knows all, but do we? Do we KNOW we are God's elect? Do we KNOW God and HIS WAYS? Can one silly man advise another on the matters of God?

Who am I to say this is how it works, and this is how God chose me? ALL I know is what God gave me in His Word, and He talks about a PREDESTINED.... Those that HE predestined... God made HIS choise of HIS Children even before the earth had a foundation. Eph 1. I am not so confident to say I am one, but I do hope I am one of those. Can I choose to be one? And if God did choose me to be one, will I ever not BE ONE? Do you think God can choose WRONGLY?

I believe it works this way.... No matter how great or small a sinner you were once, if God saves you, HE CHOSE TO SAVE YOU, out of this world and into HIMSELF. You see Ricky the ones that are SAVED are not at all confused, they ARE IN CHRIST, and for them there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO DOUBT, and NO SIN. They were ELECTED BY GOD TO BE IN HIM!

I have a hope, and the only faith I have, is in Jesus Christ to also be MY WAY. I only have hope, unlike the strong faith people here on CC, I cannot even ask God for ANYTHING, but for HIS SALVATION! And that is ALL I ask. God save me, Amen!

 

[PS]

All through the Bible we read that salvation is of the Lord for those who follow Him. That is the way it is, no arguments, no if's or but's that is the God made law. End of.

Our choice is whether we walk the narrow road that leads to salvation or the wide road that leads to destruction. Those who walk the narrow road are the elect.

Simple.

 

[SarahM777]

Spoken of Cyrus who god used as an instrument to punish isreal. Still no rejection of free will. Cyrus did what God wanted by his own free will



Cyrus, God’s Instrument

1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
2 “I will go before you
and level the exalted places,a
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Actually Cyrus was used by God to punish Babylon. Then God used Cyrus to end the Babylonian captivity and gave them permission to rebuild the temple. Ezra 1

1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:

2 “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:

“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Any of his people among you may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem, and may their God be with them. 4 And in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.’”

 

[Crossfire]

I simply don't understand why some can not accept the possibility that God is indeed so sovereign that He could create both angels and mankind with freewill and still not feel threatened. If man does not possess free will then that would mean that sin is the will of God which contradicts more scripture than one can list in one forum post.

 

[RickShafer]

I see that some see that God is the first cause.
I see that others see that they are emboldened with a choice.
My question is not that people have a choice.
My question is if they could actually find God if left to their own morality.
The answer is so simple that a mere child would know it.
Come outside folks, and learn the lesson of the four types of seed.
And whether God calls you, or you respond to Him.
Do you respond to His calling? If you do, who put it in you?
Was it any goodness of your own or is it by His unmerited favor?
If you are in Him, is it not His gift that He chose you?
This is the question. - It goes back to first cause........(lest any man should boast).

For those that think they responded to God's calling of their own volition, good luck.

 

[PS]

I see that some see that God is the first cause.
I see that others see that they are emboldened with a choice.
My question is not that people have a choice.
My question is if they could actually find God if left to their own morality.
The answer is so simple that a mere child would know it.
Come outside folks, and learn the lesson of the four types of seed.
And whether God calls you, or you respond to Him.
Do you respond to His calling? If you do, who put it in you?
Was it any goodness of your own or is it by His unmerited favor?
If you are in Him, is it not His gift that He chose you?
This is the question. - It goes back to first cause........(lest any man should boast).

For those that think they responded to God's calling of their own volition, good luck.

So if God called me, who responded?

 

[RickShafer]

So if God called me, who responded?

Who responded?
Was it man?
Because many will say in that day - "Lord, Lord; didn't we do many mighty works in your name?"
Only to be told - "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity(inequity), for I never knew you. (In the spiritually biblical sense)
It is one thing for a man, or a religion to call itself of God; or 'God's own'; it is entirely another for God to call them.
See the parable of the four types of seeds.(Matt. 13:4-9) - Many sprang up, but not all grew to fruition.

 

[PS]

Who responded?
Was it man?
Because many will say in that day - "Lord. Lord; didn't we do many mighty works in your name?"
Only to be told - "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity(inequity), for I never knew you. (In the spiritual biblical sense)
It it one thing for a man, or a religion to call itself of God; or 'God's own'; it is entirely another for God to call them.
See the parable of the four types of seeds.(Matt. 13:4-9) - Many sprang up, but not all grew to fruition.

You have made my point for me by pointing to people who although they may be wrong in one regard or another, still reach out to God of their own volition. The case is even stronger if they reach out to a false god because an idol cannot draw people to them, so it can only be the individual who is reaching out themselves in search of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who gives us the "will" to choose Jesus Christ?
How is that question 'twisted'?

it is twisted because of the way it is asked.

You should ask, who gave us the ability, and the things to chose to believe in. Not who gave us the will.

As Paul said, if Christ did not raise. OUR FAITH is futile and we are still dead in our sin. Our faith is in the power of God. not in the wisdom of men.

Is there still some thing that draws us to the Father through the Son apart from Him? - (e.g. - in our own power)

Did Christ die of our power? Did he rise of our Power? Are we convicted of our power. or by the law, prophets and words of God which were written by his power? is his gift of eternal life offered on our power? thus is our faith in our own power or the power of God?

The word made us clean. Who gave us the word? Our faith has set us free. who gave us the things to trust and be assured what God did, said and will do are true? Us??

Since it is such a twisted question I expect a twisted answer, - (which I know I will get from you).

Oh ye of little faith

Is it the Word? (Many have heard the Word and gone away sorrowfully, or rejecting it in outright rebellion)
What draws the redeemed?
God's freewill or man's?

Both. Gods freely chose to promise a redeemer not hours after sin entered the world. he chose to give us the law to lead us to Christ. he chose to give us the prophets so when Christ came, we would know who he is. He chose to give us the NT so we can be assured he did live, He did die, and he did raise from the dead. that WHOEVER (meaning anyone can do it) believes in him, will never die, but has eternal life.

We are the whoever. Do we believe or do we reject outright.

 

[RickShafer]

You have made my point for me by pointing to people who although they may be wrong in one regard or another, still reach out to God of their own volition. The case is even stronger if they reach out to a false god because an idol cannot draw people to them, so it can only be the individual who is reaching out themselves in search of God.

Are you kidding? - "An idol cannot draw people to them"!?! - Is that what you said?
Many idols draw people. - Such as:
Money.
Lust for sex.
Lust for power.

It is well known the temples of Aphrodite, Dianna, and nearly every other had prostitutes.

But Satan isn't so stupid as to leave that(sex) as his only enticement.
He has the money of this world, and he controls the power of it.
- (See the temptations of Jesus).

 

[PS]

Are you kidding? - "An idol cannot draw people to them"!?! - Is that what you said?
Many idols draw people. - Such as:
Money.
Lust for sex.
Lust for power.

It is well known the temples of Aphrodite, Dianna, and nearly every other had prostitutes.

But Satan isn't so stupid as to leave that(sex) as his only enticement.
He has the money of this world, and he controls the power of it.
- (See the temptations of Jesus).

I repeat an idol cannot draw people neither can any inanimate object. It is our own lust or desire that draws us and we are told to seek the Lord.