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S
Well, I did one search on Google about this for you and I came up with a paper someone wrote about this topic: The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible and its Ramifications..
I myself don't believe that it's significant even if true - although I have very little or no knowledge of the greek language or anything about mistranslations.
I do believe that churches are completely different in today's society than it was back in those days.
I myself don't believe that it's significant even if true - although I have very little or no knowledge of the greek language or anything about mistranslations.
I do believe that churches are completely different in today's society than it was back in those days.
K
Ekklesia is the usual word for church. It means the Body of Christ, or the Body of Christ in a specific city. There is no other usage. What we call church is not in the NT at all.
The closest thing is "Sunagoge", a meeting attended by various Christians to praise and worship God, etc. It is different from modern church in that there is no formal headship who runs everything, just a coordinator. Properly, the format is to follow I Cor. 12-14 and Heb. 10:25.
There are seven potential Greek words in all, if I recall correctly, for Christian gatherings. I don't think I saved all my notes, so I'm working from memory. The closest thing to what we call church is the OT Hebrew Qehillat, or congregation assembled to hear preaching. But that was rare, not weekly. The other words are like, voting meeting, church supper, special celebration, etc.
The closest thing is "Sunagoge", a meeting attended by various Christians to praise and worship God, etc. It is different from modern church in that there is no formal headship who runs everything, just a coordinator. Properly, the format is to follow I Cor. 12-14 and Heb. 10:25.
There are seven potential Greek words in all, if I recall correctly, for Christian gatherings. I don't think I saved all my notes, so I'm working from memory. The closest thing to what we call church is the OT Hebrew Qehillat, or congregation assembled to hear preaching. But that was rare, not weekly. The other words are like, voting meeting, church supper, special celebration, etc.
I understand Ecclesia to mean the called out ones and Church is a building noiw when I go to Acts where Stephen is stoned to death he is stoned to death for saying to the religous leaders of that day that God does not reside in buildings. Even in hebrews 8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[c]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So how didwe get to having to attend Church seems worldly to me and this mistranslation of the word Church has got a psychological ploy that God resides in buildings instead of the believer so that when we get in trouble(s) we sub-consciusly go to Church and get advice from man instead of directly from God who resides in the believer's soul and nota building
Homwardbound
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[c]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So how didwe get to having to attend Church seems worldly to me and this mistranslation of the word Church has got a psychological ploy that God resides in buildings instead of the believer so that when we get in trouble(s) we sub-consciusly go to Church and get advice from man instead of directly from God who resides in the believer's soul and nota building
Homwardbound
K
This is going to sound SO simple: The modern version is easier to explain to theologically uneducated people, and gives the educated people more control over the process. Only the educated do the Scripturally mandated things, and everyone else is privileged to watch. Uneducated was almost all you had from 400AD on.
So leaders are still trying to control the laymen inserting themselves between the believer and Christ, as what Paul told the Galatians and asked who has bewithched you tell me did you recieve the Spirit of God by faith or works. The day one first believed they were made whole by the Father and Paulwas reminding them of this
Homwardbound
Homwardbound
A
is this another "Ihategoingtochurchbutwant to justify it in righteous sound language" thread?
It says do NOT forsake the gathering of believers.
there is a divine purpose to having people gather together and worship God and build one another up. God did NOT create us to be alone and isolated.
the Leaders of the church I heed do not try to insert themselves between me and Christ but help me to mature in Christ and encourage me to grow and bear fruits of the Spirit and overcome the world and its fleshy temptations.
mmmmm.... unsubscribe....
It says do NOT forsake the gathering of believers.
there is a divine purpose to having people gather together and worship God and build one another up. God did NOT create us to be alone and isolated.
the Leaders of the church I heed do not try to insert themselves between me and Christ but help me to mature in Christ and encourage me to grow and bear fruits of the Spirit and overcome the world and its fleshy temptations.
mmmmm.... unsubscribe....
So, I don't get what point you all are trying to make. Are you suggesting (like most of the proponents of the 'House Church Movement') that we should abolish church leadership? Im sure that having designated leaders is more scriptural than not - having a few guys hang around in case things get too heretical. I know church leadership today is way too empowered. I also know this leads to the suppression of the spiritual gifts if the lives of the laity, but I don't see mutiny as a correct responce or saying that the church is NOTHING like its supposed to be. God is sovereign, remember "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not triumph against it". Surely the church in America has way more liberty financially and freedom that the church in the nt didnt. We are an extremely different circumstances, OF COURSE things are different.
K
The Greek. Here is the word study, from a book at my website: (I hope it posts better than the e-mails I have tried to send with copied quotes)
Of the 79 times that the word “church” occurs in the English Bible, 53 speak of THE Church, as though there is only one. 22 speak of the church at a home or at a place, and 3 other occurrences speak of a single church.
The second group, of the 22, has three Greek constructions: The Church in (en) a place, the church through (kata) a place, or the church of (genitive) a place. The Greek language has several words for the English word “in”. The word “en” refers to a static presence, actively pursuing a program in a place. Thus these phrases are not to be taken as the church in one town is separate from the church in another, but rather as signifying members of the one church “stationed” in a certain locality. The word “kata” is usually used for the church in a home, and refers to the fact that the person seeking the church in that home is to look all through the home for its members. It, likewise, cannot be thought to mean a specific church. The genitive means as it does in English: the church of Ephesus, for example, is simply those members of the church who represent it there.
The three odd verses are: Acts 14:23 where “every church” is used: this is a mistranslation: the Greek is kata. In 1Cor. 4:17, again “every church” is a mistranslation: the Greek word “pas” has its primary meaning “entire”. And Phil. 4:15, the word “no church” uses the Greek word “oudeis” which means “no man of the church”.
The word “churches” occurs 35 times in the Greek (mostly in Acts, Revelation, Corinthians, 2 in Romans, 2 in Thessalonians). In all but one case (1 Cor 14:34), it is used of various cities within a province, or country. The meaning of “churches” is thus not as we use it (different denominations within a city), but as a collective noun to refer to the fact that THE church is in many cities within a large area. The first proof of this is that the churches of Asia Minor, in different cities, are specifically stated to be lampstands close enough to each other, that Jesus can walk among them (Rev. 1:20), and are thus ONE connected reality. The second is that Paul writes to “churches” only when he writes to the province with many churches (Galatia). In fact, to Thessalonica, he writes to THE Church, for Thessalonica is a single city in Macedonia, which he states has churchES in 2 Cor. 8:1. In fact, to Rome, which archeology shows had many Jewish assemblies, Paul does as he does to Ephesus, Philippi, and Colossae: he writes to people, not to churches (proving one can be in THE church, without belonging to A church, as they obviously were in these towns). It is only to two other cities that Paul even uses the word “churches”: both Rome and Corinth were cosmopolitan crossroads of their day. Residents had all visited other “churches” in other cities. This observation explains the I Cor. 14:34 exception: the women were speaking out of order not only at their home church, but in other cities (even in some which kept the Jewish law – this is the only reason Paul could have mentioned the law at this point: the Corinthians, as Gentiles, were not under he law). The previous verse confirms this.
There is not a single Scripture that can be used, in the original language, to support the idea of different churches within a city. When someone comes to town and opens a “new church”, he acts without Scriptural authority.
What is a church? Do you mean the Greek “Ekklesia” (Church), “Sunagoge” (Assembly), or “panegyris” (Assembly)? Take them one at a time. First, the Ekklesia means, in Greek, those “called out”. It is used to refer even to the council of a city. THE Church of God is all the people called to live in the Kingdom of God, who are following that call. These are the ones who have been called out of the world. Today, we call them the believers, but that will not work Scripturally, for even the demons believe that there is one God and tremble, and they certainly are not the church. The word ekklesia was used by the apostles, since it also carried the connotation that it was these called-out people who would one day be the salvation of the city in which they lived, and hence its counselors. The plural, as we have seen, refers to different sub-divisions in many cities of a state.
I go on to explain suagoge and panegyra. This study does not include the other four words for Christian meetings.
Of the 79 times that the word “church” occurs in the English Bible, 53 speak of THE Church, as though there is only one. 22 speak of the church at a home or at a place, and 3 other occurrences speak of a single church.
The second group, of the 22, has three Greek constructions: The Church in (en) a place, the church through (kata) a place, or the church of (genitive) a place. The Greek language has several words for the English word “in”. The word “en” refers to a static presence, actively pursuing a program in a place. Thus these phrases are not to be taken as the church in one town is separate from the church in another, but rather as signifying members of the one church “stationed” in a certain locality. The word “kata” is usually used for the church in a home, and refers to the fact that the person seeking the church in that home is to look all through the home for its members. It, likewise, cannot be thought to mean a specific church. The genitive means as it does in English: the church of Ephesus, for example, is simply those members of the church who represent it there.
The three odd verses are: Acts 14:23 where “every church” is used: this is a mistranslation: the Greek is kata. In 1Cor. 4:17, again “every church” is a mistranslation: the Greek word “pas” has its primary meaning “entire”. And Phil. 4:15, the word “no church” uses the Greek word “oudeis” which means “no man of the church”.
The word “churches” occurs 35 times in the Greek (mostly in Acts, Revelation, Corinthians, 2 in Romans, 2 in Thessalonians). In all but one case (1 Cor 14:34), it is used of various cities within a province, or country. The meaning of “churches” is thus not as we use it (different denominations within a city), but as a collective noun to refer to the fact that THE church is in many cities within a large area. The first proof of this is that the churches of Asia Minor, in different cities, are specifically stated to be lampstands close enough to each other, that Jesus can walk among them (Rev. 1:20), and are thus ONE connected reality. The second is that Paul writes to “churches” only when he writes to the province with many churches (Galatia). In fact, to Thessalonica, he writes to THE Church, for Thessalonica is a single city in Macedonia, which he states has churchES in 2 Cor. 8:1. In fact, to Rome, which archeology shows had many Jewish assemblies, Paul does as he does to Ephesus, Philippi, and Colossae: he writes to people, not to churches (proving one can be in THE church, without belonging to A church, as they obviously were in these towns). It is only to two other cities that Paul even uses the word “churches”: both Rome and Corinth were cosmopolitan crossroads of their day. Residents had all visited other “churches” in other cities. This observation explains the I Cor. 14:34 exception: the women were speaking out of order not only at their home church, but in other cities (even in some which kept the Jewish law – this is the only reason Paul could have mentioned the law at this point: the Corinthians, as Gentiles, were not under he law). The previous verse confirms this.
There is not a single Scripture that can be used, in the original language, to support the idea of different churches within a city. When someone comes to town and opens a “new church”, he acts without Scriptural authority.
What is a church? Do you mean the Greek “Ekklesia” (Church), “Sunagoge” (Assembly), or “panegyris” (Assembly)? Take them one at a time. First, the Ekklesia means, in Greek, those “called out”. It is used to refer even to the council of a city. THE Church of God is all the people called to live in the Kingdom of God, who are following that call. These are the ones who have been called out of the world. Today, we call them the believers, but that will not work Scripturally, for even the demons believe that there is one God and tremble, and they certainly are not the church. The word ekklesia was used by the apostles, since it also carried the connotation that it was these called-out people who would one day be the salvation of the city in which they lived, and hence its counselors. The plural, as we have seen, refers to different sub-divisions in many cities of a state.
I go on to explain suagoge and panegyra. This study does not include the other four words for Christian meetings.
