One what "DATE" did YOUR Messiah die?

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,651
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#21
It is for me from as man from Serbia,a country at south-east Europe hardly to understand why people from West like to play with Bible and God and struggle against Church and Holy Fathers.
From all your so-called clearly evidences how the biggest day of all days have to be celebrated and when,i will give u just one miracle which is happens every Orthodox Easter.U can find many testemonies of this miracle.
Miracle of Holy Fire - one of the greatest miracle of God

Holy Light (Holy Fire) in Jerusalem: Proofs & Testimonies - YouTube
eVer wonder why the observance of 'easter' was changed from the Jewish Passover week to our current calendar system? The Church. There was a prevalent mood of anti semitism during Constatine's reign thanks to the allegorizing by many Church Fathers, so they made sure easter did not coincide with the Jewish Passover. Good going Father's, sheesh.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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#22
The Western church does not use the actual, or astronomically correct date for the vernal equinox, but a fixed date (March 21). And by full moon it does not mean the astronomical full moon but the "ecclesiastical moon," which is based on tables created by the church. These constructs allow the date of Easter to be calculated in advance rather than determined by actual astronomical observances, which are naturally less predictable. This division between the Eastern and Western Churches has no strong theological basis, but neither is it simply a technical skirmish. As the World Council of Churches has noted, much of Orthodox Christianity is located in the Middle East, where it has frequently been the minority religion, and in Eastern Europe, where until recently it faced hostility from communist governments. The emphasis on honoring tradition and maintaining an intact religious identity was therefore crucial. Seen in this context, changing the rules governing its most important religious holiday chisels away at the foundations of an already beleaguered religious heritage. Reconciling East and West A meeting organized by the Council of World Churches (in Aleppo, Syria, March 5–10, 1997) proposed a solution thought to be favorable to both East and West: both methods of calculating the equinox and the paschal full moon would be replaced with the most advanced astronomically accurate calculations available, using the meridian of Jerusalem as the point of measure. Since that meeting, however, no further progress has been made and the problem remains. Pinning Down A Movable Holiday Since the beginning of the 20th century, a proposal to change Easter to a fixed holiday rather than a movable one has been widely circulated, and in 1963 the Second Vatican Council agreed, provided a consensus could be reached among Christian churches. The second Sunday in April has been suggested as the most likely date.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,651
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#24
In the following quotes from Dipose's book "The Origins and Effects of Replacement Theology", he seems to reveal the basic reason why Good Friday does not end up on Passover each year. The usual explanation is that the Gregorian calendar runs different than the Jewish lunar calendar but this does not answer why not keep Good Friday connected day-wise with Passover. This tidbit from Diprose is new to me and revealing. Seeds of antisemitism from the Church Fathers.................
In AD325, Constantine wrote a letter to those bishops who had not been present at the Council of Nicea concerning the date of Easter. 110The following consideration contained in this letter, “We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews,” sums up one of the key ideas behind much subsequent legislation against the Jews. All things Jewish were understood to be totally incompatible with Christianity.p.93


The following samples of canon law show that the Church was not prepared to recognize the fact that Judaism and Christianity have much in common. According to Canon I of the Synod of Antioch (341), whoever observes Easter at the same time as the Jews makes himself “an alien from the Church, as one who not only heaps sins upon himself, but who is also the cause of destruction and subversion of many.” p.94


Diprose, Ronald E. (2012-01-23). Israel and the Church: The Origins and Effects of Replacement Theology (p. 94). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.
The Western church does not use the actual, or astronomically correct date for the vernal equinox, but a fixed date (March 21). And by full moon it does not mean the astronomical full moon but the "ecclesiastical moon," which is based on tables created by the church. These constructs allow the date of Easter to be calculated in advance rather than determined by actual astronomical observances, which are naturally less predictable. This division between the Eastern and Western Churches has no strong theological basis, but neither is it simply a technical skirmish. As the World Council of Churches has noted, much of Orthodox Christianity is located in the Middle East, where it has frequently been the minority religion, and in Eastern Europe, where until recently it faced hostility from communist governments. The emphasis on honoring tradition and maintaining an intact religious identity was therefore crucial. Seen in this context, changing the rules governing its most important religious holiday chisels away at the foundations of an already beleaguered religious heritage. Reconciling East and West A meeting organized by the Council of World Churches (in Aleppo, Syria, March 5–10, 1997) proposed a solution thought to be favorable to both East and West: both methods of calculating the equinox and the paschal full moon would be replaced with the most advanced astronomically accurate calculations available, using the meridian of Jerusalem as the point of measure. Since that meeting, however, no further progress has been made and the problem remains. Pinning Down A Movable Holiday Since the beginning of the 20th century, a proposal to change Easter to a fixed holiday rather than a movable one has been widely circulated, and in 1963 the Second Vatican Council agreed, provided a consensus could be reached among Christian churches. The second Sunday in April has been suggested as the most likely date.
 
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Jan 26, 2009
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#25
its summer hea in australia ellie,this whole week wow is goona be hot! however dates dont bother me,all i know is christ died for me and he was raised from the dead for me.
i need some lollies
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#26
Ok, I'll bite. As one who's too lazy to figger it out, just what exact date do YOU think we are to celebrate Ecc? I agree that we need to acknowlege Christ's death a whole lot more than we do now, we overlook it because it's ugly and distasteful and oh goody it all comes out well in the end so let's celebrate that! Which we should, don't get me wrong, It's just that you can't have a resurrection without a death and they both need to be acknowleged fairly. Fasting and prayer is not out of line on 'good Friday'.

.......

When you interpret prophecy, you have to include the thought of 'what's the point'? God gave man physical authority over this world, he gave it away, when Christ returns the point is for Him to establish man's physical authority over this world as was originally intended. What's the point of Christ's 1000 year rule occurring here and now? Have you looked at the here and now closely? It sucks, I don't see Christs hand in 90% of what I see going down in this trash pit of Satan's. No, Christ's rule is most definitely not the rule of the here and now.

Now, I believe Christs Bride, which will be taken from His body, does not participate in the 1,000 years of reign here on earth. Perhaps if God tells someone they will not be here for that period, they have an inkling into something special in store for them?
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#27
I think I figured out the date....Good Friday.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#28
who would again be enslaved to the Law or chase after shadows when the LIGHT has come into the world and replaced both shadows and Law? Jesus did away with the OLD Covenant to make room for the NEW.

Galatians 4
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? [SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. [SUP]13 [/SUP]You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What[SUP][c][/SUP] then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, [SUP]20 [/SUP]I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the[SUP][d][/SUP] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[SUP][e][/SUP]

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

PS. if you are going to list holidays. you have valentine's day and lent before Easter even comes close to being on the calendar.
 
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E

Eccl12and13

Guest
#29
Where are we directed by God to keep this day?
Num. 9
[14] And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.


All that desire to worship the true and living God are directed to keep this day.


.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
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#30
Num. 9
[14] And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.


All that desire to worship the true and living God are directed to keep this day.


.
Colossians 2

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
 
P

Pilgrimer

Guest
#31

On what date did YOUR Messiah die?
Jesus was crucified on Friday, Nisan 15 and rose from the dead on Sunday, Nisan 17 of the Hebrew year 3790. Those dates correlate to Friday, April 4 and Sunday, April 7 of the year 30 A.D. on the Gregorian calendar.

But you misunderstand the Christian observance of these events. Christians don't celebrate the "date" of Jesus' death and resurrection. We observe the death of Jesus through the memorial of the Lord's Supper. It is the event we memorialize, not the date, and we follow the example of the church in New Testament and apostolic times who observed the Lord's Supper on Sunday, "the Lord's Day."

Nor do we celebrate the "date" of Jesus' resurrection. We celebrate the resurrection on the "day" it historically occurred, on paschal Sunday, that is the Sunday of the Paschal week, Sunday being the 8th day of the Jewish calendar and the beginning of the New Creation.

I hope this might serve to clear up some of the confusion.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
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#32
The Lord Jesus was in all probability crucified on Thursday, 6th April 30 AD (Julian calendar), not 29 AD as some notable scholars (Tregelles, Ussher) state:

In 30 AD the first day of Passover Feast was on Thursday, April 6th, Nisan 15th, and the last day of the Passover Feast was on Wednesday, April 12th, Nisan 21. Whereas, according to the calendar of 29 AD, the first day of the Passover Feast was on Saturday, April 17th, Nisan 15th, and the last day of the Passover Feast was on Sunday, April 23rd, Nisan 21st. The crucifixion was almost certainly in 30 AD, on Thursday, April 6th, Nisan15th, not on Friday, for according to Matt 12v40, Jesus was raised from the dead “after three days and three nights.” See “the third day,” “after three days,” etc, in Matt 16v4,21, 17v23, 20v19, 27v40,63,64, Mark 8v31, 10v34, John 2v19, 19v42, 1Cor 15v4, Eph 4v9,10. Jesus was raised from the dead in the night ofthe third day. Christ’s enemies, sadly, unlike Christ’s disciples, remembered well that Jesus promised that He would be raised from the dead on the third day....

Yahweh Shalom...
 
P

Pilgrimer

Guest
#33
The crucifixion was almost certainly in 30 AD, on Thursday, April 6th, Nisan15th, not on Friday, for according to Matt 12v40, Jesus was raised from the dead “after three days and three nights.” See “the third day,” “after three days,” etc, in Matt 16v4,21, 17v23, 20v19, 27v40,63,64, Mark 8v31, 10v34, John 2v19, 19v42, 1Cor 15v4, Eph 4v9,10. Jesus was raised from the dead in the night ofthe third day. Christ’s enemies, sadly, unlike Christ’s disciples, remembered well that Jesus promised that He would be raised from the dead on the third day....


But I would urge you to look a little more closely at the passages you are using to try to fix Jesus' crucifixion on a Thursday. You are assuming that when Jesus said he would rise from the dead after three days and three nights that he meant three days and three nights from when he was laid in the tomb. But I don't believe that's what he actually taught, or what the disciples understood. Stay with me now and give this some more thought.

Look at Matthew 16:21 where Jesus begins to teach his disciples about the things he would suffer and how he would be killed and would rise the third day: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

Notice that Jesus said he would suffer many things of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised the third day. He didn't say he would be buried and be raised the third day. He included the things he would suffer at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and how he would be killed, and would be raised the third day. So the three days that preceeded his resurrection included more than just his burial in the tomb.

Look at the way Mark 8:31 words this same teaching: "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark
8:31)

Rise again three days after what? After he was buried? No, rise again three days after he suffered many things, including being rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes and being crucified. So again, he included his suffering and rejection by the Jewish authorities and his crucifixion as part of the things he would endure before he rose from the dead.

And Luke 9:22 as well recorded this same teaching: "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day."

Notice again that his rejection by the Jewish authorities and his crucifixion were included in the events that would occur then he would be raised the third day. Not the third day after he was buried, but the third day after he suffered all these things.

But perhaps clearest of all is the testimony of those two men on the road to Emmaus whom Jesus appeared to on that first Easter morning. Remember? Jesus asked them what they were talking about that made them so sad? After suggesting that he must be a stranger in Jerusalem if he had not heard all about this, Cleopas says:

"Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him, but we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Luke 24:17-21

Third day since what things were done? Since he was laid in the tomb? No, the third day since Jesus was arrested and rejected by the chief priests and rulers and delivered to the Romans and beaten and cruficified and died. These men were speaking to Jesus on the very day Jesus was resurrected and it was the third day since ALL these things had been done, not just his burial.

And Jesus too, in the very last words he spoke to his disciples before his ascension, told them, "Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day."

Notice that Jesus said he suffered, and rose the third day. His suffering did not begin when he was dead and laid in the tomb. It began when he was arrested that Thursday night in the garden of Gethsemane, was bound like a common criminal, dragged before Annas and then Caiaphas, accused, slapped, spit on, rejected by the Jewish authorities, then handed over to the Romans to be scourged, and finally hung on a cross to suffer for six long hours before his suffering was finished and he died.

Jesus foretold that he would suffer all these things, and then rise the third day. And according to those two men on the road to Emmaus that Easter Sunday morning, that Sunday was the third day since all those things had been done.

So I agree that the three days and nights began on Thursday night, but that was when Jesus was arrested and his suffering began. He was crucified the next morning, Friday, his dead body taken down off the cross late that afternoon and quickly tended and placed in the tomb Friday evening as the Sabbath approached.

And on these events all three Gospels agree.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Pilgrimer

Guest
#34
This is the outline of the Passion Week based on all the available historical evidence.

Passion Week Chronology

6 days before Passover
Friday – Nisan 8 – late afternoon - Jesus arrives in Bethany from Jericho
Friday – Nisan 9 – sunset – Sabbath supper at home of Simon

5 days before Passover
Saturday – Nisan 9 – Sabbath, Jesus rests in Bethany

4 days before Passover
Sunday – Nisan 10 – Palm Sunday, Jesus enters Jerusalem; lambs selected for Passover

3 days before Passover
Monday – Nisan 11 – Jesus cleanses the Temple

2 days before Passover
Tuesday – Nisan 12 – Jesus’ denunciation of Jerusalem; Mt. Olivet discourse

1 day before Passover
Wednesday – Nisan 13 - afternoon
Wednesday – Nisan 14 – at sunset Jews begin search for leaven with candles

Passover
Thursday – Nisan 14 – morning – no leaven eaten after 10:00
Thursday – Nisan 14 – noon – leaven destroyed
Thursday – Nisan 14 – afternoon – lambs sacrificed, Seder prepared

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Day of Unleavened Bread
Thursday – Nisan 15 – evening – Seder eaten
Thursday – Nisan 15 – night – Jesus arrested, before priests and elders

Friday – Nisan 15 – morning – Jesus brought before Pilate
Friday – Nisan 15 – 9:00 in the morning – Jesus crucified
Friday – Nisan 15 – 12:00 noon – darkness
Friday – Nisan 15 – 3:00 in the afternoon – Jesus dies
Friday – Nisan 15 – late afternoon – Jesus placed in tomb

Sabbath
Friday – Nisan 16 – sunset – Sabbath begins
Friday – Nisan 16 – night – women rest

Saturday – Nisan 16 – Sabbath – women rest

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Day of the Week
Sunday – Nisan 17 – morning early – women come to tomb, Jesus is risen
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#35
please do this to me
 
E

Eccl12and13

Guest
#36
This is the outline of the Passion Week based on all the available historical evidence.

Passion Week Chronology

6 days before Passover
Friday – Nisan 8 – late afternoon - Jesus arrives in Bethany from Jericho
Friday – Nisan 9 – sunset – Sabbath supper at home of Simon

5 days before Passover
Saturday – Nisan 9 – Sabbath, Jesus rests in Bethany

4 days before Passover
Sunday – Nisan 10 – Palm Sunday, Jesus enters Jerusalem; lambs selected for Passover

3 days before Passover
Monday – Nisan 11 – Jesus cleanses the Temple

2 days before Passover
Tuesday – Nisan 12 – Jesus’ denunciation of Jerusalem; Mt. Olivet discourse

1 day before Passover
Wednesday – Nisan 13 - afternoon
Wednesday – Nisan 14 – at sunset Jews begin search for leaven with candles

Passover
Thursday – Nisan 14 – morning – no leaven eaten after 10:00
Thursday – Nisan 14 – noon – leaven destroyed
Thursday – Nisan 14 – afternoon – lambs sacrificed, Seder prepared

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Day of Unleavened Bread
Thursday – Nisan 15 – evening – Seder eaten
Thursday – Nisan 15 – night – Jesus arrested, before priests and elders

Friday – Nisan 15 – morning – Jesus brought before Pilate
Friday – Nisan 15 – 9:00 in the morning – Jesus crucified
Friday – Nisan 15 – 12:00 noon – darkness
Friday – Nisan 15 – 3:00 in the afternoon – Jesus dies
Friday – Nisan 15 – late afternoon – Jesus placed in tomb

Sabbath
Friday – Nisan 16 – sunset – Sabbath begins
Friday – Nisan 16 – night – women rest

Saturday – Nisan 16 – Sabbath – women rest

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Day of the Week
Sunday – Nisan 17 – morning early – women come to tomb, Jesus is risen

The above is NOT what occured in the Bible!

.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#37

But I would urge you to look a little more closely...
I have looked closely at this subject for many years, and I wrote in connection with this event 'in all probability' and 'almost certainly'...I am not being dogmatic and saying that this is definitely 100% how it was...

but that was when Jesus was arrested and his suffering began
No, it states that the 3 days and 3 nights refers to the time He was 'in the heart of the earth' ie. Hades (Acts 2v27)

Also do bear in mind that the 15th Nisan started at 6pm on Thursday, 6th April 30 AD, not 18 hours earlier.

If you (or anybody else) have not already done so, go and find the calendars for the years around the Lord's Crucifixion and see what works as regards the Scriptures (Jewish feasts etc) and then post your findings in this thread, I will read it with great interest...

Yahweh Shalom

 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#38
I cant remember : (

But, you can figure it from the Zachariah's Course he was taking in his duties as a priest .I was told it was the course of Abiyah. That last only a certain time. And you would have to add time for the traveling he did. And figuring How many months along Mary's cousin Elisabeth was along with carrying John. And other things. You can get to and exact date.

What many celebrate as the birth of Christ. is actually the conception if I'm not mistaken. But I can't remember. If you want to talk more about that message me any time.
Does this help with the birth of Jesus?

Before the name “Christmas” was invented, December 25th was celebrated as “The Great Miracle”. But they were not celebrating the birth of JESUS. The one thing about the First Corning of our Messiah that is not miraculous was His birth. His birth was just like yours and mine. What our forefathers were celebrating was the Great Miracle of His Conception, which was not a bit like mine or yours! So the first riddle to unscramble is the “nine-months-out” one.

But surely, we celebrate the Lord's conception on March 25th, calling it the “Annunciation” because of Gabriel’s announcement to Mary. Yes, traditionally we do, which raises the question, ‘who is right? Us or Them?’

The answer can be detected in Dr. Luke's book. He is the Sherlock Holmes of the Gospel, having “carefully investigated everything from the beginning” so as to give us “an orderly account” —Luke 1:3.

There’s nothing like starting at the beginning, so he investigates the Reverend Zechariah’s run-in with the archangel Gabriel. Straightway he discovers a date — very useful things, dates. As one of many priests in those days, you might only get one shot at ministering in the Temple. Each year you would wonder if your name would come up. The only thing you knew for certain was the fortnight in the year when your “division” was on call.

It was King David who ordered the organizing of the priests into twenty-four fortnightly tours of duty, according to their family-groups, through the months of the Jewish Year (1.Chron. 24:6-19). Zechariah was of the 8th Division of Abijah —Luke 1:5, and according to the Jewish calendar this falls in the month of “Tammuz”. By our calendar this is around the end of June and beginning of July.

So it was that the LORD GOD made His first move to fulfill His promise to save us, and here we discover something wonderful. The name Zechariah means “to remember” and his wife’s name, Elizabeth, means “God’s Promise” --their joined names: “God remembers His Promise”! Alleluia!

You know the story of Zechariah being struck dumb in the middle of Evensong —Luke 1:8-22. You don’t argue with archangels, you say “Yes, sir.” Gabriel had told this old man to go home and have a word with his wife and start a baby, at their time of life an act of faith and a daunting prospect!

So now we have our first date-clue: Elizabeth became pregnant with John-the-Baptist sometime in July that year! Then Dr. Luke tells us that when she was six months pregnant, Gabriel visits Mary with the offer of the ultimate Spiritual Gift, to conceive, carry and give birth to JESUS, the SON OF GOD.

Already we have another all-important date —that it was December, according to our calendar, when Elizabeth was “in her sixth month”, when JESUS was conceived —Luke 1 :26-38. This tells us that the birth of JESUS was at the end of September, during the Jewish Feast of “Tabernacles”.

Now here is another of those wonderful things: according to the Prophet Zechariah (same name, different bloke, happy coincidence!) the LORD’s Second Coming also seems to be at the Feast of Tabernacles, and will be celebrated thereafter, every year, at that Feast —Zechariah chapter 14.

But we must return to Bethlehem and do some sleuthing. Luke immediately gets into the story-line, but Matthew, whose Gospel was always set first in the New Testament, appears to be incredibly boring. He begins with one of those family-trees which we are tempted to think could have been left out. How wrong we are to think so.

There are two clues in Matthew’s list that are vital for Christians in any generation to know. First, it was outrageous of him to include women’s names -- not done in Jewish practice. But when you realize that all were Gentiles, of whom the first was guilty of incest, the second a prostitute, the third a decent lass but a Gentile nonetheless, and the fourth the unmentionable Bathsheba! -- then you begin to see that Matthew was stirring the pot. He is warning that this family-tree is a nonstarter.

The clincher comes in verses 11 and 12, with the mention of King Jeconiah, also known as Coniah and Jehoiachin; probably the wickedest king Israel had. If you take your magnifying- glass and scrutinize Jeremiah 22:24-30, you will discover that none of this wretched king’s descendants would be allowed to succeed to the throne of David. Now the Messiah must be “of David’s line.” What Matthew is doing is proving the Virgin Birth: that Joseph could not have been the father of JESUS, the Messiah —for this is Joseph’s family tree. Joseph himself adds his personal testimony to the virginity of Mary, and that he was not the father of JESUS. Say ‘thank You’ for Joseph. Luke’s family-tree is Mary’s line, which is A-OK —Luke 3:23-38.

There is an easily missed clue in what the angels said to the shepherds, “This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Our God speaks clearly and very often confirms His word. So, it’s not every day that you find a baby lying in an animals’ feeding-trough. That alone would have done it for those shepherds. Where do you find a manger in a town? In a stable, of course. So check the stables first. But just in case there should be another baby lying in a manger in Bethlehem, the LORD provides a second clue: “ wrapped in cloths..”

That we are up against here is the old ‘‘chicken or egg” question. The great King James version says, “wrapped in swaddling-clothes.” Now almost all cultures wrap-up babies in cloths of some kind, both for warmth and to simulate the sense of security they have had in the womb. “Swaddling-clothes,” therefore, have become identified in English with ‘what you wrap a newborn baby in’. But there’s something wrong here!

The angels said that “a baby wrapped in cloths” was part of the sign to enable the shepherds to identify the Messiah. It would hardly have been a sign if JESUS had been wrapped-up in the usual way. So, my dear Watson, it follows that “wrapped in cloths” means something unusual!

Christian Jewish scholars are often more familiar with the expressions current in the days of the First Coming. The Greek expression used is “having been swathed.” Actually, we hardly need the scholars, we have another ancient English term which says it all, “winding-sheets.” Before the days of undertakers, families usually kept some strips of linen with which to wrap those who had died for burial. What the shepherds were looking for was a baby in a shroud!

If this sounds too bizarre, consider: “No room at the inn;” sudden birth in a stable; and all kinds of help required, including something to wrap the baby in. It makes sense to realize that the innkeepers would have some winding-sheets available “just in case!” Whatever the cloths were like in those days, they were clearly distinctive enough for those shepherds to know that this was the baby they had been told about. Not only was his cradle unusual, but his wrappings were notably different.

What is God up to in all this? By the stable and manger He is prophesying the rejection of His SON; and by the winding-cloths His death. As T.S.Elliot puts into the mouth of Thomas Becket, in “Murder in the Cathedral” —“The Cross is never far from Christmas Day!” Becket was murdered on December 29th.

Our detective-story has another truth to uncover. The ‘traditional Christmas’ wants everyone on stage! Winged- angels, even though they don’t have any!, numerous animals, the Holy Family of course, the shepherds, complete with a Welsh sheepdog, and those Wise Men, who actually arrived at least a year later. It is the timing of the Wise Men’s visit that is the clue as to what year Christ was born, and we are greatly aided here by the renowned historian of those times, Josephus.

Herod the Great (so-called for rebuilding the Temple) died in 4 BC The decree for the census, which brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem, was issued in 8 BC Jospehus records two vital facts: during the year 8 BC Herod was away fighting a war; and for a year before he died, 5 BC, he had left Jerusalem and remained at his home in Jericho.

The Wise Men (astrologers) visited Herod in Jerusalem when JESUS was a child. The Greek word used for “child” indicates a toddler, not an infant, so we are looking at about 15 months after His birth. When you piece all these together we can date the birth of JESUS in 7 BC, and the visit of the Wise Men at the end of 6 BC, or the beginning of 5 BC, with reasonable accuracy.

Perhaps the most fascinating Christmas detective story concerns the identity of these Astrologers, as the Bible describes them. It is a real pity that we have ignored the Scriptures and settled for the fiction that one was African, one was Chinese and the third European. So rally round, you Sherlocks, and be amazed!


First, how many were there? Answer: we don’t know. At least two, could be many more. We imagine three because of the three gifts. Despite the stories which tell of “Caspar, Melchior and Balthazzar” etc., we don’t know their names. So what do we know about them?

They came from the “east” and, as we shall see, this means Iraq, or Babylon as it was then. They came because they “saw a great light”— which is a better translation than “star”. Why can we say that? Because neither stars, planets, asteroids nor comets behave like this “great light” did. Our planet-earth would have been in deep trouble if it had been one of those! In any case we have already been told about this “great light”. It had appeared to the shepherds, where it is described as “the glory of the LORD.” The Bible is full of references to this “glory”. It is known as the “Shekinah-Glory” — the visible Presence of God dwelling with His people. The best known examples are the “burning bush” and the “pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night”; and from the Gospel “JESUS was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun and His clothes became as white as the light!” Such a Great Light can move around and even appear over a house, as it did for our Wise Men.

So we find a group of astrologers in Babylon seeing this Light in the direction of Jerusalem, at the time of Christ’s birth. Then, about fifteen months later, they arrive in Jerusalem, and ask, “Where is the One who has been born ‘King of the Jews’?” This faces us with three questions: Why are Babylonian astrologers concerned with the birth of a Jewish King? Why do they associate this event with the Light they have seen? And where are they getting their information from?

If you give this a little thought, you will probably remember that the Jews had spent seventy years in exile in Babylon, about 500 years before. Also, we have a Book in the Bible that was written in Babylon at that time, the Book of Daniel. We know that Daniel and his companions were forced to associate with the School of Babylonian Astrology, though they never compromised their own faith in the God of Israel. Astrology was the sort-of-religion practiced in Babylon, and had been for centuries.


Daniel, by interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, was able to save the lives of those astrologers who had been unable to do so. He and his companions became highly esteemed in Babylon. We know that God thinks of everything: so when we learn that the Book of Daniel was written in Aramaic, instead of Hebrew, so that the Babylonian astrologers could read it, then we know that God is up to something! We can be sure that the Book of Daniel was kept among their sacred writings.

In Daniel chapter 9:20-24 the Coming of the Messiah is prophesied for 490 years hence. Being astrologers, with a great love of numbers, they would have been half-expecting something to happen. But why were they so sure that the Bright Light was the sign to look for?

The Babylonian astrologers had information about this Light in their ancient records —just as the Jews had in the Old Testament. Come, detectives-all, to the Book of Numbers and the days of Israel’s desert-wanderings. Do you recall that the King of Moab wanted to do the dirty on Israel? He knew of an astrologer-cum-prophet of great reputation, a certain “Balaam, son of Beor.” He must have been well known, far and wide, because in the Book of Numbers, chapter 22:5, we are told that he lived at Pethor, near the River Euphrates in Babylon! The king of Moab sent all that way for him to come and curse Israel. We remember the story of how God prevented Balaam from doing this, even though he wanted the money! God revealed to him that Israel was a Chosen People with a particular destiny. The story is traced in Numbers, chapters 22 to 24. In 24:17-19 Balaam utters these momentous words,


“I see Him — but not now!
I behold Him — but not near!
A star will come out of Jacob;
A sceptre will arise out of Israel.
A ruler will come out of Jacob..”



I wonder how long it took them to discover the clues and put the pieces together. But when they had, they set out to discover what the God of Israel — acknowledged by Balaam; the God of Daniel — had planned for them.

Keeping our Sherlock Holmes’ deerstalker hat firmly on our heads, ask yourselves what kind of ‘arrival’ in Jerusalem could have stirred-up so much concern: “When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.” It is only one opinion, but I believe that it must have been a whole company of senior astrologers, probably with a Babylonian dignitary and a caravan of servants, that descended on Jerusalem and put a cat among the pigeons!

A word about Herod: he should be called Herod-the-Paranoid! He was convinced that someone was out to get him. Various historical records reveal that this led him to kill his favourite wife, Meriomni, and no fewer than four of his sons! Caesar Augustus joked about him and said, “It is safer to be Herod’s pig than his son!” Little wonder that he ordered the slaughter of all the boys up to two years old in the whole Bethlehem area. This also tells us how long before it had been that the astrologers and seen the Great Light.

So we have the answer to the question, why did Joseph and Mary stay so long in Bethlehem instead of getting back to Nazareth? Allowing that the census business would probably take ages to deal with, surely the LORD was ensuring that they were in the south and on the route to Egypt — providing for their getaway. In the meantime Joseph, as we would expect, had rented a house for them, and it was there, led by the Glory-Light, that the astrologers found them.

There is something heart-stopping about the picture of that little Boy tottering towards those gifts — handling the gold that would pay for their years in Egypt, the incense of priesthood, and the myrrh of death.

So has it been worth it, this detective journey to the truths about Christmas? Knowing this, is there anything we should do? Ought we to embrace a new calendar, and leave the world to its Father Christmas extravaganza, its sentimental children’s festival that gives presents, but fails to understand their meaning, a festival which has no cross and has no crown?


8 BC July, say the 25th Zechariah & Elizabeth conceive John-the-Baptist;

8 BC December 25th Mary conceives JESUS by the HOLY SPIRIT “The Great Miracle” celebrated by the early Church;

7 BC March, say 25th John-the-Baptist is born and Zechariah is healed;

7 BC September say 25th JESUS is born in Bethlehem during the Feast of Tabernacles;

5 BC January 6th The Astrologers arrive in Jerusalem, and enquire about the birthplace of the Messiah; they visit the Child Messiah and offer their gifts; this is the Feast of Epiphany, ”The Light of Christ”.
 
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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#39
For information purposes the phrase "three days and three nights" is a Jewish idiom that means long enough to die. It could be anything from a few minutes upwards.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#40
Good luck with this you will need it. I have lost the link, sorry.

Jesus fulfilled the Jewish feasts (appointed times). The seven annual feasts of Israel were spread over seven months of the Jewish calendar, at set times appointed by God. The first four of the seven feasts occur during the springtime(Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Weeks) and they all have already been fulfilled literally on the actual feast days by Christ in the New Testament.

The final three holidays (Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles) occur during the fall, all within a short fifteen-day period. Briefly, here are the prophetic significance of each of the seven Levitical feasts of Israel., 1)Passover (Leviticus 23:5) Pointed to the Messiah as our Passover lamb (1Corinthians 5:7) whose blood would be shed for our sins.

Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover at the same hour that the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening.,

2) Unleavened Bread (Leviticus23:6) Pointed to the Messiah's sinless life (as leaven is a picture of sin in the Bible), making Him the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus' body was in the grave during the first days of this feast, like a kernel of wheat planted and waiting to burst forth as the bread of life.,

3) First Fruits (Leviticus 23:10)Pointed to the Messiah's resurrection as the first fruits of the righteous. Jesus was resurrected on this very day, which is one of the reasons that Paul refers to him in I Corinthians 15:20 as the "first fruits from the dead.",

4) Weeks or Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16) Occurred fifty days after the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and pointed to the great harvest of souls and the gift of the Holy Spirit for both Jew and Gentile, who would be brought into the kingdom of God during the Church Age (see Acts 2). The Church was actually established on this day when God poured out His Holy Spirit and 3,000 Jews responded to Peter's great sermon and his first proclamation of the Gospel.,

5) Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24)The first of the fall feasts. Many believe this day points to the Rapture of the Church when the Messiah Jesus will appear in the heavens as He comes for His bride, the Church. The Rapture is always associated in Scripture with the blowing of a loud trumpet (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:52).,

6) Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27) Many believe this prophetically points to the day of the Second Coming of Jesus when He will return to earth. That will be the Day of Atonement for the Jewish remnant when they "look upon Him whom they have pierced,"repent of their sins, and receive Him as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10 and Romans11:1-6, 25-36).,

7) Tabernacles or Booths (Leviticus 23:34) Many scholars believe that this feast day points to the Lord's promise that He will once again“tabernacle” with His people when He returns to reign over all the world (Micah4:1-7)., The Biblical Calendar, The ancient biblical calendar is identical to the Jewish calendar of these days. The Jewish year has 12 lunar month starting with new moon. This means each month counts 29 or 30 days, which sums up to 354 days a year. To synchronize the calendar with the seasons, an additional month Adar is inserted in leap years (7 times in 19 years)., Hebrew month corresponds days feasts,

1. Nissan March/April 30 14. evening: Passover (Seder meal), 15. - 21.:Feast of unleavened bread, 16. in the morning: Presenting of the First fruit,

2.Iyar April/May 29,

3. Sivan May/June 30 6.: Schavuot,

4. Tammuz June/July 29,

5.Av July/August 30,

6. Elul August/September 29,

7. Tishri September/October 30

1.:The feast of trumpets (Rosh Hashana), 10.: Yom Kippur, 15. - 21.: Succoth, 8.Cheshvan October/November 30 or 29, 9. Kislev November/December 30 or 29 25.-, 10.Tevet December/January 29 -

2.: Hanukkah (re-dedication of the temple)/1. Maccabees+ Judith, 11. Schewat January/February 30, 12. Adar February/March 29 14.:purim/Esther

Below is a list of all major holiday dates for the next five years. All holidays begin at sundown on the date before the date specified here. 5769 5770 5771 57725773Rosh Hashanah 9/30/2008 9/19/2009 9/9/2010 9/29/2011 9/17/2012Yom Kippur 10/9/2008 9/28/2009 9/18/2010 10/8/2011 9/26/2012Sukkot 10/14/2008 10/3/2009 9/23/2010 10/13/2011 10/1/2012Shemini Atzeret 10/21/2008 10/10/2009 9/30/2010 10/20/2011 10/8/2012Simchat Torah 10/22/2008 10/11/2009 10/1/2010 10/21/2011 10/9/2012