What does the Bible say about....

[starfield]

Interesting discussion.

When God forgives a repentant sinner He sees them as if they never sinned, showers them with His grace and love, and brings them to His family giving them a new identity in Christ. On the other hand, human beings will still want to look at the individual's past that is why some offenders that are released from prison or rehabilitation are stigmatized by society because of the crime they committed. Some stay unemployed for an extended time period or do menial jobs, homeless, face segregation, lose friends and trust from people and it takes a while to re-establish that trust. The legal system will most likely ban a former child predator from mingling with little ones, i.e. teaching in school and daycare. These people should not be surprised to be ostracized by society, after all people reap what they sow. Some actions we take in life come with negative long-term consequences that's why it is important to think before acting. If one ploughs and sows the seed of evil, they will reap evil, shame, and scorn.

As believers it is important to practice forgiveness just as God forgave us but we should also exercise caution. Exposing an ex-pedophile to children could pose as temptation and in addition we should submit to governing authorities, so if these folks are prohibited from associating with children then they should not be allowed to teach Sunday school classes. However if they have given their life to Jesus Christ and the law permits them to associate with kids, then I think they should be forgiven and allowed to teach the classes but under supervision.

 

[JGPS]

Paul wasn't a murderer, he was complacent and party to unjust executions... That's very bad for sure, but it's a very far cry from being a murderer...

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

A child molester is a type of fornication. Let God judge him, let God decide on his heart, and put him away from yourselves.

There is no reason for this person to be part of a church authority structure at all, and puting them there is inviting wickedness into the church.

This is not an issue of forgiveness or unforgivenes. That's up to God. This is an issue of keeping evil from amongst yourselves. Like all the laws of God its about preventing evil.

And the greasy grace in the name of forgiveness about half the people here are talking about, thats inviting evil. Allowing such a person to be in such a position is not good for either that person himself nor for the people he's overseeing. You're asking for a problem because, as Tintin said, you're not using your brain.

 

[loveme1]

Ezekiel 18

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

If the man is forgiven by the Almighty through the Messiah and is being lead by the Spirit on the path of Righteousness then i'm content that the man would not be a threat to anyone.

 

[clarkthompson]

It would probably a good idea to keep rom the temptation they once had

 

[Ariel82]

Ezekiel 18



If the man is forgiven by the Almighty through the Messiah and is being lead by the Spirit on the path of Righteousness then i'm content that the man would not be a threat to anyone.

if but how do we as humans know the conditions of a man's heart?

 

[Ariel82]

I believe that if someone was truly walking with God's spirit and in their past committed such crimes they would NOT seek to have position of power over the young or those they might have victimized in the past.

I'm not saying they will not be forgiven or that they should be shunned if they truly are repentant and NO LONGER engage in the sinful activities. (if they do still pimp or molest children then no one here hopefully will argue that its NOT true repentance at all)

what I'm saying is that everyone should humbly examine themselves and recognize that our past actions even though they are forgiven have present consequences because as long as our bodies are alive in this earth, our bodies are subject to God's laws which punishes sinners. the hope is that it will not be eternal punishment and that we await the redemption of our bodies.

To forgive someone is not to let them off the hook. to love someone is NOT to ignore what they have done, but to correct and help them overcome any temptation.

It is NOT loving to allow innocent children to be exposed to a potential threat just to prove how 'forgiving" you are.

the analogy of Paul being a murderer and forgiven and allowed to preach is totally different.

Paul did not seek to have power over little children. Paul understood the law and was not a child molester or a pimp.

He thought when murdering Christians he was defending God's truth.

A child molester or pimp never thought those things. Or if they did they twisted scripture to suit their own needs.

Yes God can forgive such a person, but that does not mean that they are qualified to teach the young simply because they have been forgiven.

it does not matter the physical age but when one is born again. that day they are born again is like they are babes in Christ and need to learn what it truly means to be a child of God. they need to know the law and how it leads one to Christ.

children are to be protected and do not need to deal with another child in an adults body trying to teach them things they haven't truly learnt themselves.

if they are truly qualified and want to lead a group, I believe it should be of adults who can choose to remain in the group or join a different group.

I also believe that it is always wise to have at least two adults in any children classroom and should be the policy of all churches, because Jesus sent His disciples out two by two. therefore it makes sense that teachers should be paired together.

 

[Kefa52]

In our Church you get a back ground check, and references before you get anywhere near the children.

 

[cfultz3]

Cfultz3, are you being willfully ignorant? Sexual sin, especially in regards to minors, is very different to the sin of stealing etc. Both are sins but sexual sin is the most damaging (the Bible says this). We're to protect the young and weak. Your comparisons are ludicrous.

Just because we do not agree, Tintin, how about staying away from words like 'ignorant' and ' ludicrous', we are both adults here.

Anyway, I do understand what you are saying. An ex-thief cannot be a tithe collector. An ex-gay cannot be a teacher for the males. An ex-idol worshiper cannot teach about God. I agree that there should be at least two people doing something in the church at a time, by which ALL are giving an opportunity to stay away from temptation. But once we start to draw a line and say that only a selected few cannot be trusted, then that ex-thief runs off with the Church's deposits and the ex-idol worshiper is down in the basement teaching wicca and the ex-gay is leading others astray.

At what point do we stop drawing the line?

 

[loveme1]

if but how do we as humans know the conditions of a man's heart?

Two men could come along one confessing His past behaviour the other declaring himself to of never done such things.

You could believe the first man has been made New and would not do any wrong again .

Or you could trust the second man who says He has never done such things to start with.

Which would you be most comfortable with?

Both men are giving you their word, which man's heart can we see?

 

[Ariel82]

Two men could come along one confessing His past behaviour the other declaring himself to of never done such things.

You could believe the first man has been made New and would not do any wrong again .

Or you could trust the second man who says He has never done such things to start with.

Which would you be most comfortable with?

Both men are giving you their word, which man's heart can we see?

As I said before. you can not see either man's heart. that is why there should be a policy of TWO adults with the children at all times.

however one who declares such past sins should be lead by the HOly Spirit to avoid temptations and not seek to be placed in a position of authority over children.

do you truly understand what it means to be made New? Do you never "do any wrong again"? even unintentionally?

there are strongholds and lies that a man who could justify abusing others by selling them into prositution or abusing children by sexual immoral behavior that needs to be torn down. it takes more than just a contrite heart to overcome. it takes maturity in Christ. walking in the Holy Spirit and tearing down strongholds that allow someone to commit the sin in the first place.

these are mental and spiritual strongholds that people need to address first amd foremost instead of seeking power and authority over others. they must first be mature and able to discern the lies they believed to allow themselves to commit such sins againt God and His children.

Jesus warns us of wolves and how we are to protect the sheep, not hand the lambs over on a silver platter for the slaughter.

 

[loveme1]

As I said before. you can not see either man's heart. that is why there should be a policy of TWO adults with the children at all times.

however one who declares such past sins should be lead by the HOly Spirit to avoid temptations and not seek to be placed in a position of authority over children.

do you truly understand what it means to be made New? Do you never "do any wrong again"? even unintentionally?

there are strongholds and lies that a man who could justify abusing others by selling them into prositution or abusing children by sexual immoral behavior that needs to be torn down. it takes more than just a contrite heart to overcome. it takes maturity in Christ. walking in the Holy Spirit and tearing down strongholds that allow someone to commit the sin in the first place.

these are mental and spiritual strongholds that people need to address first amd foremost instead of seeking power and authority over others. they must first be mature and able to discern the lies they believed to allow themselves to commit such sins againt God and His children.

Jesus warns us of wolves and how we are to protect the sheep, not hand the lambs over on a silver platter for the slaughter.

Indeed Trust is always going to be required we would be taking both men at their word.

i'm not saying anyone should hand over the "lambs" for slaughter because we are both aware of the temptations some people give into in this world toward children.

 

[homwardbound]

I personally do not think they should allow someone who murdered people because of their faith to preach. But, then again, I am not Jesus.

So Saul who became Paul who murdered should not have preached, I think he was chosen by God. I think it is God'scalling noit ours as oiyu stated you and I are not Jesus the more one is forgiven the more they appreciate and love back such is as Paul showed, but it did take the people a little while before they listened to Paul

 

[homwardbound]

I am sure that murderer repented and Jesus forgave him, even so much that He permitted him to preach the Gospel to billions of souls to their salvation. If Jesus can forgive one who murdered others because of what they believed, surely we can forgive a repented brother also. Forgive so that you can be forgiven. Forgive not and you shall not be forgiven by the Father.

This is just what I see Cultz and am in no way trying to correct you love you
Cultz today after the cross where all are forgiven and yet not all saved those that are saved after seeiong they are forgiven final back at the cross Forgive because they are forgiven, yet under the law that was taken out of the way by Christ we before the cross foirgave in order to forgive there is a big differance one is under law and the other is freed from Law
A true repentant heart shows this by holding no records of wrongs, never envious, never proud and or boastful all of 1 cor 13

 

[homwardbound]

Cfultz3, I'm not saying to deny him/her forgiveness, I'm saying that you need to be very careful about having your kids around him/her and that you shouldn't trust them to be alone with young people.

This would have to depend on what The Holy Ghost tells you what Father wants you to do Saul was a murderer and repented a tree is always identified by its fruit and that evil tree can be grafted in by God and be changed as Saul was to Paul. I understand the fear and I agree to be careful and I would definately be seeking Father's answer of what to do, but I do know this to show him God's love as in 1 cor 13 but that does not mean that i would or would not let me be around kids let alone teach. So please let us alltrust God in this and so no partiality as James speaks of about the rich and poor it does pass over to this action and reactions also

 

[Kefa52]

Two men could come along one confessing His past behaviour the other declaring himself to of never done such things.

You could believe the first man has been made New and would not do any wrong again .

Or you could trust the second man who says He has never done such things to start with.

Which would you be most comfortable with?

Both men are giving you their word, which man's heart can we see?

In our Church you get a back ground check, and references before you get anywhere near the children.

 

[drjshow]

I think we're confusing forgiveness with prudence. I am heartened every time I hear of someone who has turned their life around by the Grace of God. At the same time, I am not going to put my children alone in the company of a child molester. I would absolutely allow my children to listen to the testimony of, say, a child molester who has repented and moved forward preaching The Word. That doesn't mean I'm going to hire him as my babysitter. I have no problem with a convicted thief, murderer, etc. joining my church and turning his life over to Christ...or preaching The Word. That doesn't mean I'm moving them into my spare bedroom.

 

[homwardbound]

No. But we must still be vigilant. There are consequences for sin. God gave us brains, please let us use them!

The brains we got are to be used in thr trust of God faith in God through Christ in total dependancy on The triune God, Any thoughts about any situation allows for doubt to come in and captivate you in the flesh and cause dstress as is what happened to Adam and Eve Doubt entered and they partook of and death of the Spirit of God past to all mankind nad God in his MERCY has saved you.
You and I owed a debt to much to repay and God forgave you and I of this debt you and I recieved this forgiveness and account cleared up.
Then you and I go to a place and see another sinner that owes us a debt and we go anbd demand thisperson to pay this debt to us and do not let him be a part of our group. Have we forgotten the debt that we owed and were forgiven. Now if we neglect this how will we be saved if we do not forgive as we have been forgiven and do not test the Spirits. The more one has been frogiven the more they will forgive. I tell you the truth one will only love as much as they believe they are loved and will only forgive as much as they believe they are forgiven poeriod and yet God forgave us all and has and still today just loves us all unconditionally and whennone sees this they change as Saul did from Paul as King david Did when he saw that he not onlysinned against the people but more importantly against God, and God said a man after his own heart. Yuo wil knkow by the Spirit of truth in you whether to let this man teach or not it starts with being truthful to this man and seeing his reactions the Spirit of truth will tell you waht to do, but you will not see this wuith a judgemental mind setof the flesh
loving you all the same there is no respect of persons with God

 

[Ariel82]

prudence. thank you. A word we should learn the wisdom of and use. very similar to discernment.

 

[homwardbound]

I think most churches require people in authority over children to get criminal record checks done. At least, they should. Doesn't God's word say that the law was to protect people and punish the guilty? I would not be okay with a convicted child molester teaching my children in an unsupervised area. Ever. Why? Because we can never know the true condition of another person's heart. That's what I think.

But if you are in communcation with God, you will know what to do or not it could be do not let him teach but let him in for I (GOD) have recieved him and I God will through your trust in me (GOD) will use you to bring this man to maturity so be receptive to be used by God through the Holy Ghost not only living in you but more importantly living through you as what the disciples were told in Matthew 10 to trust the Holy Ghost for the right words at the right time to bring in the Sheep and I tell you will such logic that none of the opponents are able to reply. in other don't think wait in trust forthe Holy Ghost's instructions in love God's type that brings in the sheep that have been lost as Saul was, along with many others

 

[Ariel82]

\it starts with being truthful to this man and seeing his reactions the Spirit of truth will tell you waht to do

I would truthfully tell this man that he does not need to place himself in a position of temptation or have authority over children but instead focus on other tasks within the church that he is more suited to doing.

IS God unforgiving when HE says NO to something you want to do?

why then when we His children use prudence and loving care for our young are we considered unforgiving or judgemental by not allowing someone with that background to have authority over our little ones?

as someone said. he can give his testimony, but I would not have him babysit or teach doctrine to my children.

just because someone wants to do something does not mean it is unforgiving to tell them that they are not qualified for that job. It is better for them to walk in the works God created for them to walk in and not grasp for power and authority that through their actions has shown to be NOT what God intended for them to be or do.

being a sex offender, child molester or pimp disqualifies you from working with children. even if you are reformed. even if you are made new. you can still be a part of the church, just not in that ministry. there are other ministries: prison ministries, elderly ministries, etc.