For then shall be great tribulation

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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WRONG.

Its all tied to their obedience.


Leviticus 26


27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.



Coming back is conditioned on obedience.


40 “‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees.


The Jews there now are not obedient covenant keepers or Messiah followers.


YAY STILL WEIGHS IN! (finally:rolleyes:)


 
A

Anonimous

Guest
To quote the prime minister of Israel, "If the Arabs would put down their weapons there would be no troubles in the Middle East, but if Israel put down her weapons, there would soon be no Israel." That's not exact, just the best I can remember it.
oorah!!!!!!!
 
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peterT

Guest
So you are absolutely sure your eschatology is 100% correct? I'm impressed, LOL. .
So you are absolutely sure your eschatology is 100% correct? I'm impressed, LOL
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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You see there is no if we Repent and make peace with God through Faith in the Messiah who came and will return.

It is all carnal not Spiritual...
true loveme.
but the Very Real Literal Historical and Living Messiah King, Jesus of Nazareth.
that's the One. The Most Holy.
there's no other Name.


BUT - for some ppl, Talmudic Judaism equals = saved Old Wine Skins, so all the murdering and racism and supremacy is ALL SO HOLY.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Yes God scattered the Jews just as his word prophesied, but He gathered them again to the land in 1948 just is His word also prophesied. God did give the land to the physical seed of Abraham, forever, and God never breaks a promise so land is theirs. The Jews owning the land does not depend upon their faith or sanctity, but on their covenant keeping God.

Dear lady, if the Jews can't trust in the promises God gave them, then we have no basis for trusting in the promises God gave us
i'm worried that you say these things Ellis.

i know Him and i know he is Trustworthy and Good always , i feel like crying reading your last two lines...
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
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true loveme.
but the Very Real Literal Historical and Living Messiah King, Jesus of Nazareth.
that's the One. The Most Holy.
there's no other Name.


BUT - for some ppl, Talmudic Judaism equals = saved Old Wine Skins, so all the murdering and racism and supremacy is ALL SO HOLY.
i feel like a traitor to my First Love to even entertain the idea...
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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the term antichrist or antichrists
Yes, there are many antichrists in the world, but just one 'man of sin' to come.

The title 'son of perdition' was given to two individuals in scripture - Judas (past) and a coming man of lawlessness, who will appear in the end times.

2 Thess 2:3-4: "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Yes God scattered the Jews just as his word prophesied, but He gathered them again to the land in 1948 just is His word also prophesied. God did give the land to the physical seed of Abraham, forever, and God never breaks a promise so land is theirs. The Jews owning the land does not depend upon their faith or sanctity, but on their covenant keeping God.

Dear lady, if the Jews can't trust in the promises God gave them, then we have no basis for trusting in the promises God gave us
Amos 9:13-15 The days are coming, declares the LORD, when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills, and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.

The above happened in 1948?
 
Jan 8, 2013
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When the Holy Spirit speaks the truth to your heart it leaves no room for error or private interpretation. What Kate-follower has said is just pure light that 'zings' right into the heart and edifies the soul with truth and makes the words of Christ have power (spirit and life) to direct our thoughts and our steps in the will of God.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
i'm worried that you say these things Ellis.

i know Him and i know he is Trustworthy and Good always , i feel like crying reading your last two lines...
I know you love the Lord with all your heart, as do I, but those last two lines are still true. The Lord blinded the Jews to the Gospel, Romans 11:8, so all the Scripture they have been allowed to see during the Christian era is the Old Testament. If the Jews can't trust the promises God gave them in the Old Testament, then we Christians have no basis for trusting the promises God gave us in the New Testament.

Why do you think I hate the blind bigotry of the Church so much? Their unwillingness to accept at face value such verses as Romans 4:15, 11:11, 11:24-25 and 11:28-29, keeps us all in darkness and prevents us from standing shoulder to shoulder with our brethren, the Jewish people.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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I know you love the Lord with all your heart, as do I, but those last two lines are still true. The Lord blinded the Jews to the Gospel, Romans 11:8, so all the Scripture they have been allowed to see is the Old Testament. If the Jews can't trust the promises God gave them in the Old Testament, then we Christians have no basis for trusting the promises God gave us in the New Testament. W

hy do you think I hate the blind bigotry of the Church so much? Their unwillingness to accept at face value such verses as Romans 4:15, 11:11, 11:24-25 and 11:28-29, keeps us all in darkness and prevents us from standing shoulder to shoulder with our brethren, the Jewish people.
Ellis, it is they not being circumcised in heart through Faith in the Messiah that keeps us apart.

We are One through Faith and reconciled with Heavenly Father.

In the depths of darkness there are some that believe they can obtain what belongs to them while in Rebellion.

It is through this that things will come to pass in this world.

Shoulder to shoulder in Spirit and Truth may it be so.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Romans 5


5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In belief they are grafted back in.
 
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Therapon

Guest
Amos 9:13-15 The days are coming, declares the LORD, when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills, and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.

The above happened in 1948?
Yes it did, and that is one of the most remarkable fulfillments of Bible prophecy of the whole Christian era. The Old Testament is full of it and a day-years and time-times prophecies prove that God knew to the exact year when the new nation of Israel would be established, 1948, and Jerusalem would be freed of Gentile control, 1967.

Many don't want to accept those day-year and time-times prophecies as fulfilled in new Israel, because they are supporting pillars in dispensational eschatology, but when you prove them fulfilled in new Israel in 1948 and 1967, major tenets of the seven-year tribulation doctrine can no longer be biblically or historically supported.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Yes it did, and that is one of the most remarkable fulfillments of Bible prophecy of the whole Christian era. The Old Testament is full of it and a day-years and time-times prophecies prove that God knew to the exact year when the new nation of Israel would be established, 1948, and Jerusalem would be freed of Gentile control, 1967.

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Absolutely, amen
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Yes it did, and that is one of the most remarkable fulfillments of Bible prophecy of the whole Christian era. The Old Testament is full of it and a day-years and time-times prophecies prove that God knew to the exact year when the new nation of Israel would be established, 1948, and Jerusalem would be freed of Gentile control, 1967.

Many don't want to accept those day-year and time-times prophecies as fulfilled in new Israel, because they are supporting pillars in dispensational eschatology, but when you prove them fulfilled in new Israel in 1948 and 1967, major tenets of the seven-year tribulation doctrine can no longer be biblically or historically supported.
If this happened in 1948, which I do not believe it has happened yet, then the land would have been distributed between the 12 tribes as promised for an inheritance. I do not see that prophecy fulfilled at this time. The days are coming. . .the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. . .Does this have anything to do with Jesus coming back to tread the winepress?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Ezekiel 22

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 24Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation. 25There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.27Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. 28And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. 29The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. 30And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Just been reading your Study Guide from the link that you provided, which contradicts what you have just said in this post, unless you have changed your mind.

"It can now be proven that the beasts in Revelation, the
Two Witnesses, the Seven Seals, and the Seven Trumpets
are not events in our future! In fact, all have been fulfilled
during the Christian era and we are just moments away
from King Jesus appearing in the sky! Difficult realities to
accept, perhaps, but true just the same."
It can now be shown with some certainty that all Bible prophecy needing to be fulfilled before the return of the Lord has already been fulfilled with the exception of James 5:1-5 and that is happening even as I write. So when viewed from a biblical perspective, it is just prophetic "moments" before the Lord returns.
The actual tribulation has not happened yet. There will be no second coming until Israel's plea and confession that they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. He will not return until they look to the one they pierced, and cry out for Him to return. This is the precondition of His second coming. And.... it will be through the awful tribulation that Israel will suffer and reach that final point of confession. Not all Jews will be saved, many will die, but those sealed will be kept safe. Just like Noah's ark, so will the remnant be kept safe.

Hosea 5:15: "I will go and return to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Zech 12:10: "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn"

Matthew 23:37-39: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "

Nations will be gathered against the remnant of Israel. This has not happened yet.

Saying all this, it's clear that the tribulation is all about the Jews. Nowhere does the gentile church fit in.

Salvation is offered to gentiles today, while Israel are temporarily blinded. When the fullness of the gentiles comes in God will then turn to Israel and focus on them.
 
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Therapon

Guest
Ellis, it is they not being circumcised in heart through Faith in the Messiah that keeps us apart.

We are One through Faith and reconciled with Heavenly Father.

In the depths of darkness there are some that believe they can obtain what belongs to them while in Rebellion.

It is through this that things will come to pass in this world.

Shoulder to shoulder in Spirit and Truth may it be so.
Oh, the Jews have faith alright, but not according to New Testament doctrine. I know you guys don't understand, but God honors His own word, one verse of which states, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall anything be established." The Jews of the Christian era are one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3-4. If God had not blinded the Jews to the Gospel, the Jews would have been absorbed into the church, there would not have been two witnesses, so that prophecy and many others could never have been fulfilled. So did God blind them to be lost? If He did, then He broke His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the rest of the prophets. Romans 11:11 states He did not.

Many believe that people have to get their doctrine right to be saved and that is absolutely untrue. Souls are saved when they have a humble and repentant heart before God regardless of their doctrine, Hosea 6:6 and Micah 6:8 say otherwise as do those other verses from Romans that I cited particularly 11:28-29.
 
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loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Revelation 3

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
What does this mean to you all?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
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Revelation 3[:8-9]

What does this mean to you all?
It means non believing (non-messianic) jews and people who are not jews by descent or blood but yet falsely claim so.