Daniel is out of chronological order.

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A

Abiding

Guest
According to therapon all Israelites of all time are saved.
Since they were elect. So we can shut the thread down.
Even Judas. Imagine that.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
That does not solve my dilemma. What of those who never physically heard of the Gospel? What about Jesus enlightening all who comes into this world? What about the Spirit convicting the world of righteousness, even those who have never physically heard of the Gospel? What purpose then does it serve the Spirit to convict? Does not that Spirit-ual conviction, apart from man intervention, lead to the Light (Jesus Christ)?
You can muddy what the Bible teaches so clearly by tossing around all these questions.
The Bible is clear on what it says.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
You can muddy what the Bible teaches so clearly by tossing around all these questions.
The Bible is clear on what it says.

There must be an answer in Scripture which talks about what happens to those who have never heard of Jesus, but yet live their lives according to the conviction of the Spirit, as per Romans 2.

My questions were pertaining to this dilemma and was not intended to muddy up Scripture.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
The Bible is clear on what it says.
Yes it is. But we also have Romans 2 along with "Faith comes from hearing...". My purpose is to harmonize the complete council of God.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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John 1:9
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.



There was the true Light which , coming into the world , enlightens every man.



There was the true Light which coming into the world < Jesus

enlightens every man.




pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole, every kind of
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of.

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

- all or any that are of the class indicated by the noun: as

- any and every, of every kind (A. V. often all manner of)

commentaries:

Christ may be said to do what is accomplished by his command or appointment. This passage means, therefore, that by his own personal ministry, and by his Spirit and apostles, light or teaching is afforded to all. It does not mean that every individual of the human family is enlightened with the knowledge "of the gospel," for this never yet has been; but it means:

1. That this light is not confined to the "Jews," but is extended to all - Jews and Gentiles.

2. That it is provided for all and offered to all.

3. It is not affirmed that at the time that John wrote all "were actually enlightened," but the word "lighteth" has the form of the "future." "This is that light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations."

Wyc., very light (compare the Nicene creed, "very God of very God"). This epithet is applied to light only here and 1 John 2:8, and is almost confined to the writings of John. A different word, ἀληθής, also rendered true, occurs at John 3:33; John 5:31; John 8:13, and elsewhere. The difference is that ἀληθινόζ signifies true, as contrasted with false; while ἀληθινός signifies what is real, perfect, and substantial, as contrasted with what is fanciful, shadowy, counterfeit, or merely symbolic. Thus God is ἀληθής (John 3:33) in that He cannot lie. He is ἀληθινός (1 Thessalonians 1:9), as distinguished from idols. In Hebrews 8:2, the heavenly tabernacle is called ἀληθινή, as distinguished from the Mosaic tabernacle, which was a figure of the heavenly reality (Hebrews 9:24). Thus the expression true light denotes the realization of the original divine idea of the Light - the archetypal Light, as contrasted with all imperfect manifestations: "the Light which fulfilled all that had been promised by the preparatory, partial, even fictitious lights which had existed in the world before."


9. lighteth every man, &c.-rather, "which, coming into the world, enlighteneth every man"; or, is "the Light of the world" (Joh 9:5). "Coming into the world" is a superfluous and quite unusual description of "every man"; but it is of all descriptions of Christ amongst the most familiar, especially in the writings of this Evangelist (Joh 12:46; 16:28; 18:37; 1Jo 4:9; 1Ti 1:15, &c.).

1:6-14 John the Baptist came to bear witness concerning Jesus. Nothing more fully shows the darkness of men's minds, than that when the Light had appeared, there needed a witness to call attention to it. Christ was the true Light; that great Light which deserves to be called so. By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness
 
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cfultz3

Guest
Joh 1:9 ηνG1510 V-IAI-3S - (which was) τοG3588 T-NSN φωςG5457 N-NSN - (the Light) τοG3588 T-NSN αληθινονG228 A-NSN - (the true) οG3739 R-NSN - (which) φωτιζειG5461 V-PAI-3S - (which does enlighten) πανταG3956 A-ASM - (every) ανθρωπονG444 N-ASM - (human) ερχομενονG2064 V-PNP-ASM G2064 V-PNP-NSN - (human who is coming /Light which is coming) ειςG1519 PREP - (into) τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM - (this world)
If G2064 is meant for the human:

Joh 1:9 which was the true Light which does enligthen every human who is coming into this world.​


If G2064 is meant for the Light:

Joh 1:9 which was the true Light which is coming into this world, which does enlighten every human.​


From my understanding: either way, Jesus is the Light, and that Light enlightens every human.


Clark:


Which lighteth every man - As Christ is the Spring and Fountain of all wisdom, so all the wisdom that is in man comes from him; the human intellect is a ray from his brightness; and reason itself springs from this Logos, the eternal reason. Some of the most eminent rabbins understand Isa_60:1, Rise and shine, for thy Light is come, of the Messiah who was to illuminate Israel, and who, they believe, was referred to in that word, Gen_1:3, And God said, Let there be Light; and there was light. Let a Messiah be provided; and a Messiah was accordingly provided. See Schoettgen.

That cometh into the world - Or, coming into the world - ερχομενον εις τον κοσμον: a common phrase among the rabbins, to express every human being. As the human creature sees the light of the world as soon as it is born, from which it had been excluded while in the womb of its parent; in like manner, this heavenly light shines into the soul of every man, to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment; and it is through this light, which no man brings into the world with him, but which Christ mercifully gives to him on his coming into it, that what is termed conscience among men is produced. No man could discern good from evil, were it not for this light thus supernaturally and graciously restored. There was much light in the law, but this shone only upon the Jews; but the superior light of the Gospel is to be diffused over the face of the whole earth.
 
D

doulos

Guest
According to therapon all Israelites of all time are saved.
Since they were elect. So we can shut the thread down.
Even Judas. Imagine that.
Maybe you should take a little time and gain an understanding of the view Therapon espouse. That is not what he is saying. I don't believe you are intentionally misrepresnting the view like some here try to do but never the less you are still misrepresenting what he says.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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If G2064 is meant for the human:

Joh 1:9 which was the true Light which does enligthen every human who is coming into this world.​


If G2064 is meant for the Light:

Joh 1:9 which was the true Light which is coming into this world, which does enlighten every human.​


From my understanding: either way, Jesus is the Light, and that Light enlightens every human.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.


John 3:21
"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.


"Some of the most eminent rabbins understand Isa_60:1, Rise and shine, for thy Light is come, of the Messiah who was to illuminate Israel, and who, they believe, was referred to in that word, Gen_1:3, And God said, Let there be Light; and there was light. Let a Messiah be provided; and a Messiah was accordingly provided. See Schoettgen.

That cometh into the world - Or, coming into the world - ερχομενον εις τον κοσμον: a common phrase among the rabbins, to express every human being. As the human creature sees the light of the world as soon as it is born, from which it had been excluded while in the womb of its parent; in like manner, this heavenly light shines into the soul of every man, to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment; and it is through this light, which no man brings into the world with him, but which Christ mercifully gives to him on his coming into it, that what is termed conscience among men is produced. No man could discern good from evil, were it not for this light thus supernaturally and graciously restored. There was much light in the law, but this shone only upon the Jews; but the superior light of the Gospel is to be diffused over the face of the whole earth"




Romans 1
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


Romans 9
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


1 Corinthians 2
14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.


1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles


John 5:42
But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.


John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.


John 8:39
"Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do what Abraham did.


John 8:43
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.


Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham


9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father-that pillow on which the nation so fatally reposed, that rock on which at length it split.

for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham-that is, "Flatter not yourselves with the fond delusion that God stands in need of you, to make good His promise of a seed to Abraham; for I tell you that, though you were all to perish, God is as able to raise up a seed to Abraham out of those stones as He was to take Abraham himself out of the rock whence he was hewn, out of the hole of the pit whence he was digged" (Isa 51:1). Though the stern speaker may have pointed as he spoke to the pebbles of the bare clay hills that lay around (so Stanley's Sinai and Palestine), it was clearly the calling of the Gentiles-at that time stone-dead in their sins, and quite as unconscious of it-into the room of unbelieving and disinherited Israel that he meant thus to indicate (see Mt 21:43; Ro 11:20, 30).
JFBBC



2. "How sore and severe your doom will be, if you do not improve this." It is now declared with the axe at the root, to show that God is in earnest in the declaration, that every tree, however high in gifts and honours, however green in external professions and performances, if it bring not forth good fruit, the fruits meet for repentance, is hewn down, disowned as a tree in God's vineyard, unworthy to have room there, and is cast into the fire of God's wrath-the fittest place for barren trees: what else are they good for? If not fit for fruit, they are fit for fuel. Probably this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which was not, as other judgments had been, like the lopping off of the branches, or cutting down of the body of the tree, leaving the root to bud again, but it would be the total, final, and irrecoverable extirpation of that people, in which all those should perish that continued impenitent. Now God would make a full end, wrath was coming on them to the utmost.
Henry

~

and the very same is afforded gentiles, so is the same warning - no difference.

hear the gospel of forgiveness of sins in Jesus Name - receive the gift of faith, by faith obey the Gospel and be saved.

end of story.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Maybe you should take a little time and gain an understanding of the view Therapon espouse. That is not what he is saying. I don't believe you are intentionally misrepresnting the view like some here try to do but never the less you are still misrepresenting what he says.

what are the Two Olive Trees?

one tree/church of believing jews who don't have to acknowledge Christ
one tree/church of believing gentiles who do? or don't?
 
D

doulos

Guest
what are the Two Olive Trees?

one tree/church of believing jews who don't have to acknowledge Christ
one tree/church of believing gentiles who do? or don't?
No point trying to explain it to you again. You would only resort to the sophmoric tactic of trying to misrepresent (i.E. lie) about what was said again. Here have another glass of Alcasar's 400 year old KOOL AID kool aid pitcher 2.jpg
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Maybe you should take a little time and gain an understanding of the view Therapon espouse. That is not what he is saying. I don't believe you are intentionally misrepresnting the view like some here try to do but never the less you are still misrepresenting what he says.
No actually im not involved with anything more than his and my dialogue.
So what are you? a bodyguard? If so than stay with my dialogue with him
so when you want to butt in, you will understand what im saying.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
No point trying to explain it to you again. You would only resort to the sophmoric tactic of trying to misrepresent (i.E. lie) about what was said again. Here have another glass of Alcasar's 400 year old KOOL AID ]
Supersessionism, fulfillment theology, and replacement theology are terms for the biblical interpretation that the New Covenant supersedes or replaces the Mosaic Covenant,[1][2] the latter thus also referred to as the Old Covenant. The terms do not appear in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, however, the view they cover is considered part of most traditional Christian views of the Old Covenant, viewing the Christian Church as the inheritor of the promises made with the children of Israel.[3][4] This view contrasts with the minority views of dual-covenant theology on the one side and abrogation of Old Covenant laws on the other.

no true christian jew or gentile believes in replacement theology, or some dumb idea that jews are out and gentiles are in.
or that The Law is not good and holy.

what every true Christian knows is the New Covenant (JESUS) superceded and ended the Old (MOSES), since the NEW (fresh, all new, brand new) is founded ON BETTER PROMISES < CHRIST

it's the simplest thing in the world.

but you can't understand any of Christ's Words.
you don't know anything about the Christian faith.
you're ashamed of it.
ashamed of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
 
D

doulos

Guest
Supersessionism, fulfillment theology, and replacement theology are terms for the biblical interpretation that the New Covenant supersedes or replaces the Mosaic Covenant,[1][2] the latter thus also referred to as the Old Covenant. The terms do not appear in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, however, the view they cover is considered part of most traditional Christian views of the Old Covenant, viewing the Christian Church as the inheritor of the promises made with the children of Israel.[3][4] This view contrasts with the minority views of dual-covenant theology on the one side and abrogation of Old Covenant laws on the other.

no true christian jew or gentile believes in replacement theology, or some dumb idea that jews are out and gentiles are in.
or that The Law is not good and holy.

what every true Christian knows is the New Covenant (JESUS) superceded and ended the Old (MOSES), since the NEW (fresh, all new, brand new) is founded ON BETTER PROMISES < CHRIST

it's the simplest thing in the world.

but you can't understand any of Christ's Words.
you don't know anything about the Christian faith.
you're ashamed of it.
ashamed of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Here's the link Supersessionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and here's some more kool aid pitcher 2.jpg
 
T

Therapon

Guest
According to therapon all Israelites of all time are saved.
Since they were elect. So we can shut the thread down. Even Judas. Imagine that.
That is absolutely not true! You sure you're not Zone in disguise?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Ellis is pretending he has me on ignore because he can't address my posts.
i know he doesn't though, because he ripped off my term death-knell.
plus he's just plain dishonest.
so is his friend.

anyway.....

ya....i know. it's antisemitic to quote from Sage's 'wisdom'

these are the chosen people after all....just doing what's right and good, they just haven't heard of Jesus because God decided to to mercifully blind them, not pour New Wine into them so they wouldn't explode.

it's all good.


~

Babylonian Talmud

Sanhedrin 55b

since the latter reason embraces both the reason of a stumbling block and of human degradation,1 the former reason is that of stumbling block alone, e.g. when a heathen commits bestiality!2 — No. The second reason is that of stumbling block and of degradation, but the first teaches that even if there is degradation without a stumbling block, the animal is stoned, e.g., if a Jew committed bestiality in ignorance [of the fact that it is forbidden].3

Even as R. Hamnuna propounded: What if a Jew committed bestiality in ignorance; must there have been both a stumbling block and degradation [for the animal to be stoned] and in this case there is only degradation, but no sin; or perhaps for degradation alone without there having been a stumbling block [the animal is stoned]?4 —

R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, as a garment which has lain upon [a person afflicted with gonorrhoea].5 If she married a priest, she may eat of terumah;6 If any unfit person7 has a connection with her, he disqualifies her from the priesthood8 — If any of the forbidden degrees had intercourse with her, they are executed on her account,9 but she is exempt.10 Now, 'any of the forbidden degrees' implies even a beast: in this case, there is degradation but no stumbling-block, yet it is taught that they [including a beast] are slain on her account.11 [No, this is not conclusive, as it can be argued that] since she deliberately offended there is a stumbling-block] [though she is a minor] but the All-Merciful One had mercy upon her; now, He shewed mercy to her, but not to the animal.
Raba said: Come and hear! A male aged nine years and a day who cohabits with his deceased brother's wife [the former having left no issue] acquires her [as wife]. But he cannot divorce her until he attains his majority.12 He is defiled through coition with a niddah,13 so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, as a garment which has lain upon [a person afflicted with gonorrhoea] — He disqualifies [a woman from the priesthood],14 but cannot enable a woman to eat [of terumah].15 He renders an animal unfit for the altar,16 and it is stoned on his account,17 and if he had intercourse with one of the degrees forbidden in the Torah, the latter is executed. Now here there is degradation, but no stumbling-block, yet it is taught: 'It is stoned on his account.' Since it was a deliberate offence, there is a stumbling-block, but the All-Merciful One had mercy upon him; now, He showed mercy to him, but not to the animal.

Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 55 < click


.......


MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN47 HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH48 A LITTLE GIRL,49 OR WHEN A SMALL BOY50 HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD51 — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO52 R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH. A VIRGIN, WHO WAS A WIDOW, A DIVORCEE, OR A HALUZAH FROM MARRIAGE53 — HER54 KETHUBAH IS A MANEH.55

4 If they had sexual intercourse before they were three years and one day old the hymen would grow again, and they would be virgins. V. 9a and 11b and cf. Nid. 44b and 45a.

49 Less than three years old.
50 Less than nine years of age.
51 Lit., 'One who was injured by wood', as a result of which she injured the hymen.


Raba said, It means5 this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this,6 it is as if one puts the finger into the eye;7 but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood,' and [with regard to the case of] 'a girl injured by a piece of wood,' itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages.

Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11 > click


.......


Raba said: For what purpose did the All Merciful write 'carnally' in connection with the designated bondmaid,14 a married woman,15 and a sotah?16 That in connection with the designated bondmaid [is required] as has just been explained.17 That in connection with a married woman excludes intercourse with a relaxed membrum.18 This is a satisfactory interpretation in accordance with the view of him who maintains that if one cohabited with forbidden relatives with relaxed membrum he is exonerated;19 what, however, can be said, according to him who maintains [that for such an act one is] guilty? — The exclusion is rather that of intercourse with a dead woman.20

Since it might have been assumed that, as [a wife], even after her death, is described as his kin,21 one should be guilty for [intercourse with] her [as for that] with a married woman, hence we were taught [that one is exonerated]. What was the object of that22 of the sotah? — Such as was taught: Carnally22 excludes [the case where the husband's warning was] concerning something else. What is meant by 'something else'? R. Shesheth replied: The exclusion is the case where he warned her concerning unnatural intercourse

Babylonian Talmud: Yebamoth 55 < click

the above is the result of the rejection of LOGOS.

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple.

All
mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.


Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click


oh zone you're such a conspiracy theorist.
why can't you just shut up and bless Israel.
we ought to be standing shoulder to shoulder with Our Brothers, The Pharisees, ellis and doulos say.
Jesus doesn't matter, it's the heart God sees.

but:

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

maybe that's why the NEW heart is needed.
which comes from the Gospel.
which maybe we should be ashamed of.
because we don't want to upset anyone.
and we hate muslims
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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John 15:21
They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.

John 16:3
They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

..........

Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 8:19
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Zone,

I am not saying that everyone has Jesus (Light) in them. But, everyone is enlightened as to the existence of the Light. Even the one who is in the deepest of darkness must admit the Light exist, though he can try to deny it. He will bring to light the hidden things of the darkness and will make know the counsels of the heart. There will be no excuse of ignorance concerning this Light. We, as humans, can either approach this Light or remain in the darkness. There will be no excuse, through the Spirit, every one is offered to approach the Light.

My emphasize is on enlightenment (to be shown). If all man are not shown the Light, spiritually speaking, then those who never heard of Christ, can accuse God of being unjust. We know that the administration of the Spirit is to turn a sinner around to the Light, again, spiritually speaking. We also know that the Spirit speaks to the world. For those who never heard, they too will be without excuse by rejecting the beckoning of the Spirit to turn to the Light (Jesus).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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That is absolutely not true! You sure you're not Zone in disguise?
you, ellis are the one in disguise.
and your friend(s).






Acts 20
“You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, 19serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; 20how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained byb the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, 23except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 24But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. 26Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,c which he obtained with his own blood.d 29I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Zone,

I am not saying that everyone has Jesus (Light) in them. But, everyone is enlightened as to the existence of the Light. Even the one who is in the deepest of darkness must admit the Light exist, though he can try to deny it. He will bring to light the hidden things of the darkness and will make know the counsels of the heart. There will be no excuse of ignorance concerning this Light. We, as humans, can either approach this Light or remain in the darkness. There will be no excuse, through the Spirit, every one is offered to approach the Light.

My emphasize is on enlightenment (to be shown). If all man are not shown the Light, spiritually speaking, then those who never heard of Christ, can accuse God of being unjust. We know that the administration of the Spirit is to turn a sinner around to the Light, again, spiritually speaking. We also know that the Spirit speaks to the world. For those who never heard, they too will be without excuse by rejecting the beckoning of the Spirit to turn to the Light (Jesus).
then why are you in the camp of the wolves who claim God has a plan to withhold the Light from Jews who reject Christ - and that He does it to save them?

don't bother answering.
i don't really care.
until you repent.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
That is absolutely not true! You sure you're not Zone in disguise?
Hey didnt you put up a fuss(against my post on election, elect etc) and say that elect meant the same thing(salvation)
each time its used? Yes you did. So in that case, those are the implications of your position.