Stave Three of A Christmas Carol

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#122
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
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#122
Tinuviel, you were right about Willoughby being a snake! He got Colonel
Brandon's charge in a bad way and then completely abandoned her! I
have just been reminded of this sordid fact as the movie plays out :(
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#123
#123
Magenta said:
Tinuviel, you were right about Willoughby being a snake! He got Colonel
Brandon's charge in a bad way and then completely abandoned her! I
have just been reminded of this sordid fact as the movie plays out :(
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Yeppers. Creep. But...I don't know. In the Emma Thompson film I always start crying for him when he's sitting up on that hill watching near the end; he really did love Marianne. He really needed to be freed from himself and I feel like he would have hated himself for the rest of his life for not marrying Marianne. (But I'm glad she married Colonel Brandon!)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#124
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#124
Tinuviel said:
Yeppers. Creep. But...I don't know. In the Emma Thompson film I always start crying for him when he's sitting up on that hill watching near the end; he really did love Marianne. He really needed to be freed from himself and I feel like he would have hated himself for the rest of his life for not marrying Marianne. (But I'm glad she married Colonel Brandon!)
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Yes, they did love each other, but as Marianne said, he did not love her enough... and though Elinor asked "not enough...?, Marianne does not answer, and the scene shifts; but we know what the not enough was. Wickham was still much more evil, deliberately lying to people to manipulate their feelings toward him and away from Darcy, whom he was unconscionably slandering for his own gain.
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#125
#125
Magenta said:
Yes, they did love each other, but as Marianne said, he did not love her enough... and though Elinor asked "not enough...?, Marianne does not answer, and the scene shifts; but we know what the not enough was. Wickham was still much more evil, deliberately lying to people to manipulate their feelings toward him and away from Darcy, whom he was unconscionably slandering for his own gain.
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While I might feel a tender spot in my heart for the Willghouby that might have been I think even the might have been would not have been as perfect for Marianne as Colonel Brandon was!
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#126
#126
Magenta said:
Yes, they did love each other, but as Marianne said, he did not love her enough... and though Elinor asked "not enough...?, Marianne does not answer, and the scene shifts; but we know what the not enough was. Wickham was still much more evil, deliberately lying to people to manipulate their feelings toward him and away from Darcy, whom he was unconscionably slandering for his own gain.
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I was wrong, I thought he had no good intentions toward Marianne, but he did want to marry her. The thing is, he did not love her exclusively, but was dallying with Beth at the same time he was falling in love with Marianne. He didn't even provide for his child. In a way, he is worse than Wickham because he refuses to provide for his child. (I'm rewatching it now). The "Where is your heart?" scene. Poor Elinor, at last she can tell it.
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#127
#127
Galatea said:
I was wrong, I thought he had no good intentions toward Marianne, but he did want to marry her. The thing is, he did not love her exclusively, but was dallying with Beth at the same time he was falling in love with Marianne. He didn't even provide for his child. In a way, he is worse than Wickham because he refuses to provide for his child. (I'm rewatching it now). The "Where is your heart?" scene. Poor Elinor, at last she can tell it.
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They both ended up in about the same situation. However, I think Willoughby was closer to the point of turning over a new leaf than Wickham ever was. Wickham never really regretted anything he did, I get the impression Willoughby had regrets.
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#128
#128
Tinuviel said:
They both ended up in about the same situation. However, I think Willoughby was closer to the point of turning over a new leaf than Wickham ever was. Wickham never really regretted anything he did, I get the impression Willoughby had regrets.
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Yes, you're right. I think Willoughby regretted the loss of Marianne his whole life. Wickham- I get the impression he might leave poor Lydia in the future.

I agree with you, though. Colonel Brandon is far superior to Willoughby in every way.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#129
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#129
Tinuviel said:
While I might feel a tender spot in my heart for the Willghouby that might have been I think even the might have been would not have been as perfect for Marianne as Colonel Brandon was!
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Still, you have to admit he was cuter ;););) haha.
And closer to Marianne in age, tastes, and temperament.
And yet it is her temperament that is faulted for being too open and trusting.

I have to pause the movie now that Marianne is out of danger
and her mother has arrived with Colonel Brandon. *tears fall*
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#130
#130
Galatea said:
Yes, you're right. I think Willoughby regretted the loss of Marianne his whole life. Wickham- I get the impression he might leave poor Lydia in the future.

I agree with you, though. Colonel Brandon is far superior to Willoughby in every way.
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"Poor Lydia. Poor, stupid girl." She kind of had it coming :mad:
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#131
#131
Magenta said:
Still, you have to admit he was cuter ;););) haha.
And closer to Marianne in age, tastes, and temperament.
And yet it is her temperament that is faulted for being too open and trusting.

I have to pause the movie now that Marianne is out of danger
and her mother has arrived with Colonel Brandon. *tears fall*
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Alan Rickman trumps a younger man. That VOICE! I don't know how Tinuvial feels about Rickman, Lol. I am
at that scene, now. Best part of the film, imo.

I saw a film where a woman is married to Rickman and falls in love with another man. It was not believable. Who could fall out of love with Alan Rickman? It is inconceivable.
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#132
#132
Magenta said:
Still, you have to admit he was cuter ;););) haha.
And closer to Marianne in age, tastes, and temperament.
And yet it is her temperament that is faulted for being too open and trusting.

I have to pause the movie now that Marianne is out of danger
and her mother has arrived with Colonel Brandon. *tears fall*
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"Give me an occupation Miss Dashwood, else I go mad." LOVE that part. (Willghouby was definitely more dashing, but Colonel Brandon isn't bad looking either!)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#133
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#133
That really is the most powerful love scene of the whole movie... sisterly love.
Elinor begging at the bedside of her deathly ill sister: don't leave me alone.

Later, as Brandon is about to leave the room, Marianne thanks him.
It is all he has ever wanted, just to be acknowledged by her.
He bows out and closes the door a gratified man.
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#134
#134
Magenta said:
That really is the most powerful love scene of the whole movie... sisterly love.
Elinor begging at the bedside of her deathly ill sister: don't leave me alone.

Later, as Brandon is about to leave the room, Marianne thanks him.
It is all he has ever wanted, just to be acknowledged by her.
He bows out and closes the door a gratified man.
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*sniffle* You've started me now lol
 
laura_charlotte

laura_charlotte

Senior Member
#135
Dec 16, 2012
1,483
114
63
#135
Galatea said:
Thanks! That's a great scene. And the actress who plays Mrs. Bennett has the best expression on her face, like she is processing what her husband just said. Lol. Lizzie had to get her wit from someone. :)
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Yw. It is fantastic, she's a great role model for girls and women alike. Case in point: When she hands out rejection in this scene:


[video=youtube;tST6pYGIKe0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tST6pYGIKe0[/video]​
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#136
#136
laura_charlotte said:
Yw. It is fantastic, she's a great role model for girls and women alike. Case in point: When she hands out rejection in this scene:
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I kind of think Lizzie was too hard on Darcy. She was right to be angry with him for thwarting Jane's romance with Bingley. But in his defense, he thought Jane did not love Bingley and was a gold digger. He jumped to the wrong conclusion. I like to look at it from his point of view. He is extremely wealthy and well placed. He has to constantly be on guard against scheming women who fawn all over him just because they are attracted to his money and fine figure. It makes him standoffish.

He meets a woman, whom he thinks is like all the rest- but the more he sees her, the more he likes her. She is NOT impressed by his money and is real. He can hardly believe his good fortune, he's found a genuine woman at last. He doesn't want to love her, her family is embarrassing, it will be a step down to marry her, his family (Lady Catherine de Bourgh and probably others) will be angry and make a fuss. There are going to be a lot of problems. He sees his prospective mother-in-law and shudders.

I don't know, in a way, isn't it a little MORE romantic to be in love against your will? It certainly isn't calculating, that is for sure. This is not a Mr. Collins, we're dealing with here, thinking about what is practical. He put his case badly, but I could not have rejected him, not if he said he loved me although it isn't practical. She regrets saying all those awful things to him, later.

[video=youtube;CgkS5_PTfZQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgkS5_PTfZQ[/video]
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#137
#137
Magenta said:
That really is the most powerful love scene of the whole movie... sisterly love.
Elinor begging at the bedside of her deathly ill sister: don't leave me alone.

Later, as Brandon is about to leave the room, Marianne thanks him.
It is all he has ever wanted, just to be acknowledged by her.
He bows out and closes the door a gratified man.
Click to expand...
No, I think he wanted more. He is in love with Marianne and wants her hand. It is gratifying that the good man is given is reward. One thing is for sure, Marianne can not find fault with Colonel Brandon's reading. Like she did with Edward's reading. :)
[video=youtube;clTG6sYtJig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clTG6sYtJig[/video]
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#138
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#138
Galatea said:
No, I think he wanted more. He is in love with Marianne and wants her hand. It is gratifying that the good man is given is reward. One thing is for sure, Marianne can not find fault with Colonel Brandon's reading. Like she did with Edward's reading. :)
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Yes, he is in love with her, but up until her recovery from the near fatal illness, Marianne would not consider him or his feelings in the least, so her acknowledgement in his role in bringing her mother while she is ill is gratifying to hm. She knew he had come to see her while they were in London but barely even greeted him, she was in such a hurry to rush out of the room in her disappointment it was not Willoughby come to call. It hurt him deeply, but she had not a care for his feelings at all. Perhaps she was in a way fearful of being seen to encourage him. She did not want to encourage him in the least.

Another thing struck me about Marianne post illness: she was like Louisa after her recovery from her fall, in that she was much changed. The exuberance of her former character was gone; she was much more sedate, not as rash or impetuously impulsive. In that state of deeper self reflection she faulted herself for the unbecoming behavior that had led to her being hurt by Willoughby. I love that scene where she tells Elinor she compares her behavior to what it ought to have been by comparing herself to Elinor. :)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#139
I wonder if Marianne would still not have considered Colonel Brandon suitable
as a suitor, but for her drastic change of personality following her recovery.
Poor Frederick Wentworth was preparing himself to bite the bullet with
Louisa due to the misunderstanding that sprang from his carelessness, and
then she changed radically post recovery, and shocked everyone by becoming
engaged to Benwick, which a relieved Wentworth was quite happy to discover.

Another scene I love in S&S is when Edward comes to call after they erroneously
assumed it was he who had wed Miss Lucy Steel (what a wretch she was). Even
though Elinor is so overcome with the news that he is a single man and cannot
control herself from breaking down in wracking sobs, the scene is nonetheless
quite humorous. In fact all the scenes with Edward are so amusing. Him and his
tight cravat as Tinuviel said :D The level of awkwardness reached quite a high.:D
 
laura_charlotte

laura_charlotte

Senior Member
#140
Dec 16, 2012
1,483
114
63
#140
Galatea said:
I kind of think Lizzie was too hard on Darcy. She was right to be angry with him for thwarting Jane's romance with Bingley. But in his defense, he thought Jane did not love Bingley and was a gold digger. He jumped to the wrong conclusion. I like to look at it from his point of view. He is extremely wealthy and well placed. He has to constantly be on guard against scheming women who fawn all over him just because they are attracted to his money and fine figure. It makes him standoffish.

He meets a woman, whom he thinks is like all the rest- but the more he sees her, the more he likes her. She is NOT impressed by his money and is real. He can hardly believe his good fortune, he's found a genuine woman at last. He doesn't want to love her, her family is embarrassing, it will be a step down to marry her, his family (Lady Catherine de Bourgh and probably others) will be angry and make a fuss. There are going to be a lot of problems. He sees his prospective mother-in-law and shudders.

I don't know, in a way, isn't it a little MORE romantic to be in love against your will? It certainly isn't calculating, that is for sure. This is not a Mr. Collins, we're dealing with here, thinking about what is practical. He put his case badly, but I could not have rejected him, not if he said he loved me although it isn't practical. She regrets saying all those awful things to him, later.
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What you've offered 'for' his case is irrelevant to the question at hand for the heroine. He had extremely ill manners as was noted in specific scenes in the first half of the film. The audience sees her directly observe, imitate and laugh at him incredulously with her older sister. "she's not handsome enough to tempt me" She knew she didn't like those values or behaviour and could never be interested in that kind of person. "I had not known you a month before you I knew you were the last man I could ever marry!" "you could not have made me the offer of your hand in any way to tempt me to accept it!"

He comes to her saying "listen you're so totally beneath me but I can't help how my inconvenient feelings are against what I believe is the better way to be in life, so despite all that, marry me." He can barely spit the proposal out while choking on his own resistance. He had prejudice and an upbringing of issues to work through before he was ready to be the man he would eventually be, properly ready to marry her. If she consented at that point it would not have been a good start at all.

That's not a happy, healthy, sincere proposal nor the man the heroine wanted and knew would be right for her, thus the sound reason for her rejection. He had things to learn and she wanted to see that from him. As was noted in the later part of the film, he improved his manners, behaviour, saved her family from debt caused by her sisters stupidity, and redid the proposal in a much nicer way. That's what made her feelings change and her finally consenting to sharing her life with him.
 
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