Cop shootings - how much is too much?

Ugly · Jan 22, 2018

It's easy to talk about this from the safety of your keyboard. Why not go out there yourself and see what You'd do.
Already One (and only one, that I'm aware of) proponent against police shootings took their practice course. Even knowing the situation was fake and he had no chance of being hurt guess how many people he shot. ALL OF THEM.
He learned that instinct overrides all, even in simulations.
And really, what, are they going to have designated shooters? Ask the bad guy to stop and wait while they draw straws? Or what if the designated shooter misses? Or hesitates?

And shooting to injure is not usually the protocols because the shots require much more precision. Something that's harder to get when you're life is at risk and you're under pressure.

oldethennew · Jan 22, 2018

let us think if we were the ones who some one was pointing a 'gun' at, 'life threatening'...
just think of the 'trauma and terror' of those whom he was threatening?
most will be traumatized for LIFE, whether male or female, along with their families...

he reaped what he sowed...

JosephsDreams · Jan 22, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

Whoa. Not to far from where I used to live when I was in VT. I was at the Graham rally in the summer of '16. I am guessing not far from there?

The best thing to do is get feedback from Tommy on this. He is trained and experienced in this area.

Most cops are very professional. They are human and make mistakes. Unfortunately there mistakes can be fatal.
Of course some LE are outright bad people. No better then the crooks they are chasing, but it is a small minority.

Sadly the Police historically speaking don't have the best record regarding minorities. They are more suspicious of them and treat them worse, generally speaking.

Oncefallen · Jan 22, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

You've been watching too much TV. Sure, shooting to injure works really well on the screen but not so well in real life.

The only time a law enforcement officer (or anyone else for that matter) has the legal right to squeeze the trigger is when LETHAL force is justified. In any law enforcement (or civilian) deadly force training, you are trained to continue firing until the threat is neutralized (dead, incapacitated, or ceases the threat of their own will).

Adstar · Jan 22, 2018

RickyZ said:

As far as i know, police are trained in this type of situation are trained to empty their magazines into the offender to ensure the thread is neutralized.. Now if they are trained in that way then it would not matter if the wepon weilding individuel was confronted by 1 cop or 20 cops if they have all recieved the same training then the outcome will be 20 cops with empty pistols and the individuel with up to 300 bullet wounds..

As far as i know Zero cops are willing to allow an individual to shot them in any situation.. Cops do not join a law enforcement agency to take a bullet.. They all want to return home at night and continue their lives.. So being confonted by an armed individuel will soon see them gun that person down and emptying their magazine for them is the best policy to ensure that the individuel in question will not be putting the cops lives in danger..

RickyZ · Jan 22, 2018

Interesting responses. A couple thoughts back,

And for those just joining us, this is after 35 years working in the streets alongside my brothers in blue and having them as friends and in family. And as one who has looked down the barrel of a gun and ducked flying bullets in the street.

While the discussion has focused on this event, I was hoping to turn it into a more general issue.

I don't care if it's a bb gun or not, if you point something at a police officer he has the right to shoot you, if for no other reason than you're obviously too stupid to live. You can't give a guy a millisecond to respond to a death threat and then armchair quarterback his response. In this particular case, the articles do not say if he pointed it at them or not.

In a case where there is time,

Let me say that again,

In a case where there is time, such as this 50 minute standoff, there is no reason the supervisor in charge couldn't poll his officers and determine which 3 out of the nine have the cleanest shots and designate them as the shooters. Them and whoever he's pointing his gun at. In a caveat to Willie, I also offered that if he doesn't go down after 30 to 40 hits (4 officers with 10 round magazines), everyone else gets to unload.

This particular guy was obviously a scumbag that the cops were familiar with. His history alone means they have to up their game. But, he was a scumbag that God loved. Suppose this was a guy who was only trying to pay his rent and feed his family. Would he deserve to be annihilated? God tells us to love all of humanity, there but for Him go we all right? Those who want to annihilate him instead of subduing him aren't getting that point.

mcubed · Jan 22, 2018

I had a sister call the cops on her husband. He was in the woods with a gun, contemplating suicide. He came out of the woods, in his truck, pointing gun. The cops shot up his truck like swiss cheese, and he survived (G-d spared his life, look at the truck the man should have been dead; every bullet missed him). He did 20 years. We believe He wanted to die suicide by cop.

The police were not wrong. Pull a gun, run from the police, act like a criminal... what do you expect them to slap your hand, and say you're just misunderstood.

There is a law suite in my city right now, man went on a high speed chase, tier blew, man on side of road, put hand down police officer thought had gun shot him. Man died. The police officer was in the right. When a police officer shoots they shoot to kill, rightfully so.

I have been pulled over for speeding, they ask me if I have needles. I answer "Yes" ,"I am type I diabetic" and have asked do you want to see. Every time, I get "no"..... and the reason why.... I am told, because the ones that have needles illegally lie about it....

See, the point is, police are not after innocent people.... act like a criminal the police have EVERY RIGHT TO PROTECT THEMSELVES!!!!!

AuntieAnt · Jan 22, 2018

A 32-year-old robber with a police record starting in 2002 runs toward a high school where innocent students are in attendance, gets in a stand-off with police while brandishing a weapon, and the question is, “Why did 9 officers shoot him?”

I have a question: Instead of running to a high school, why didn’t he surrender? Why didn’t he drop his weapon and lay himself on the ground? While we're at it, why did he choose to rob a credit union and threaten people's lives?

It seems some folks are more concerned about the robber’s life than he was. In fact, it seems some people are more concerned about the dangerous robber than they are the innocent students at the high school as well as the police officers paid to protect citizens.

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

I have a Ruger 9 mil that looks just like that.....In my view....cops have a very dangerous job and they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.....My view.....not second guess unless it is obvious abuse or a very provable case of a misapplication of force....

Prov910 · Jan 23, 2018

I always wonder how wise it is for an officer to fire until his weapon is empty. I mean, what if a second gunman appears? What if a second gunman appears and there are nine cops standing around with empty weapons, scrambling to reload? Seems like it would be prudent to keep a couple shells in the clip. :shrug:

preacher4truth · Jan 23, 2018

OK!

Cops have a man with a gun who is acting dangerously.

The man is stupid enough to point his gun at 9 officers, and only he knows it's a BB gun.

The 9 officers don't wait to decide who is going to take him out, so, with family at home, their lives on the line as far as they know, and not knowing this was a BB gun, they give the guy what he had coming for what he did.

I don't see a problem. What should they say after they give him what he deserves and find out he had a BB gun? Should they say "Oh, we were so wrong, it's only a BB gun!?"

It's stupid to blame them.

Let's say someone breaks in our house. My wife, kid, myself all have a gun. My kid and I round a corner and see the moron point a weapon at my wife, and she is pointing her gun at him. We're not going to say "Oh, her gun is enough, let her do it, let's not over-react here!" and holster our guns. No, no. That dude is going to get met with hot flying lead from our end and hers. End of story.

mailmandan · Jan 23, 2018

Oncefallen said:

That's EXACTLY what I was taught in my CCW certification class.

Tommy379 · Jan 23, 2018

RickyZ said:

Interesting responses. A couple thoughts back,

And for those just joining us, this is after 35 years working in the streets alongside my brothers in blue and having them as friends and in family. And as one who has looked down the barrel of a gun and ducked flying bullets in the street.

While the discussion has focused on this event, I was hoping to turn it into a more general issue.

I don't care if it's a bb gun or not, if you point something at a police officer he has the right to shoot you, if for no other reason than you're obviously too stupid to live. You can't give a guy a millisecond to respond to a death threat and then armchair quarterback his response. In this particular case, the articles do not say if he pointed it at them or not.

In a case where there is time,

Let me say that again,

In a case where there is time, such as this 50 minute standoff, there is no reason the supervisor in charge couldn't poll his officers and determine which 3 out of the nine have the cleanest shots and designate them as the shooters. Them and whoever he's pointing his gun at. In a caveat to Willie, I also offered that if he doesn't go down after 30 to 40 hits (4 officers with 10 round magazines), everyone else gets to unload.

This particular guy was obviously a scumbag that the cops were familiar with. His history alone means they have to up their game. But, he was a scumbag that God loved. Suppose this was a guy who was only trying to pay his rent and feed his family. Would he deserve to be annihilated? God tells us to love all of humanity, there but for Him go we all right? Those who want to annihilate him instead of subduing him aren't getting that point.

You're writing about appointing shooters, but you don't get it.

To use a force, that has a likelihood of causing death, in self defense, the person in defense would have to be in fear of their own life being in jeopardy, or fear serious bodily injury.

How does a police supervisor decide who is in fear, and who is not?

blue_ladybug · Jan 23, 2018

Jim, I haven't had TV since 2009.. Had the cable turned off and never turned on since...

And I get "neutralizing the threat". BUT does that ALWAYS have to mean killing the perp every time???

Oncefallen said:

Willie-T · Jan 23, 2018

And one thing it seems everyone is forgetting is that this fool chose a school full of children at which to make a stand. That, alone, buys you an almost automatic death sentence if anyone on the scene gets a shot at you.

hornetguy · Jan 23, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

I'll see your BB gun, and raise you a fully loaded .45 ACP pistol..... let me point one at you, or threaten a school area with one of them..... don't worry, it's probably only a BB gun........ right?

As mentioned, LEO's are taught to shoot to stop a threat, NOT shoot to "kill".

A LEO is responsible not only for his and his brother officers' safety, but also the safety of the public. If a perp is a threat to other citizens (like at a SCHOOL, perhaps?) it is the officers' DUTY to stop that threat.

Also, this isn't Hollywood, where when a person takes a bullet, they drop and it's over. People with no drugs in their system at all can continue fighting/running/whatever for an amazing amount of time before dropping. Drugs in their system can make them almost "bullet-proof" unless the central nervous system is compromised...... LEO's shoot until the threat is stopped.

And "shooting to wound" ??? The officer would end up being charged (and convicted) of any number of crimes.... if there is not a serious enough threat for LETHAL force, no gun should be fired. NEVER shoot to "wound". That is a direct ticket to prison.

Tommy379 · Jan 23, 2018

The poll at the top of this thread is stupid.

blue_ladybug · Jan 23, 2018

I fully agree. (Sorry, Ricky) Turning someone into "swiss cheese" should never have to happen. I know it does happen,but it shouldn't have to...

Tommy379 said:

7seasrekeyed · Jan 23, 2018

Tommy379 said:

it's loaded

mj007 · Jan 23, 2018

Disturbing that 50% of the votees have a violent mind and little regard for human life.

Extend that to cops who are armed with a gun, how many of these cops were itching to turn someone into swiss cheese? You know, and then claim self-defence, or claim that the criminal had gone all bravado and had stopped with an intention and belief that he could shoot all 9 cops using ricochet physics.

Tommy379 said:

Cop shootings - how much is too much?

Should 9 cops all unload their weapons into a lone criminal?

Yeah! Turn him into swiss cheese!

Uhm, that's a little excessive

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