Belief a CHOICE?

Some claim that God knows all the possible outcomes of all possible choices.


Please, someone give me a verse or two from the Bible that clearly says this.



I would say that God definitely knows everything, but that also means that everything is determined as well.




We have to remember in this that God's ways are higher than ours, and we are all fallible human beings. The point isn't to sit and argue about doctrines, but instead to be devoted to Christ in love, to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. Of course, there are certain doctrines that definitely need to be defended (look at the divinity of Christ for one). How God is sovereign, the role He plays in history, is important as well, but it, for most cases, doesn't determine whether one is saved or not. One who believes we have a free will that can accept or reject God is equally as saved as one who believes that we cannot believe on our own.

I used to be more Armenian, but now I'm more Calvinist.
Both are Christian. I struggled hard, but I could no longer reject the doctrines put forth by Calvin.
And it's certainly hard, because most people around me would reject the doctrine in a heartbeat. Does that make them not Christian? Of course not.



So look to Christ before you answer, and see how the Spirit leads you to answer (as I would say, how God the Father foreknew you to answer )


Grace and Love

The Omniscience of God is clearly pointed out in may versus in the Bible

"The Bible repeatedly tells us that God knows everything. His knowledge, in fact, is “perfect [Job 37:16] and is “beyond measure” [Psa. 147:5]. He sees every move we make, He knows the innermost thoughts of our hearts and He even knows what we are going to say before we say it [1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9; Psa. 139:1-6; Jer. 17:10; Heb. 4:12-13]."


The Bible also states that God has absolute and ultimate sovereignty. I have often asked that question my self, why even offer salvation if the outcome is not only known, but under rule. I am aware that the bible says we have free will and must choose. But both of these scenarios cannot be true.

Either God has a plan that we are all going to follow, or we have free will. Both can't be possible. This is one of the many questions that led me to walk out of my seminary school.

Absolutely right. But if you're acknowledging this, then you acknowledge that it has nothing to do with the discussion of individual salvation that (I thought) we were previously having.

The point is, we are dead in our trespasses before we accept Christ. Only those that the Father has chosen will come to Him - He calls them out of darkness into light through His Son Jesus Christ, who will raise all that come to Him up on the last day to salvation.

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Yes, but the question becomes, "WHY did God choose Bob, and not Sally?" Biblically the answer is that Bob was foreknown, as a believer, by God.


Amen. These are truths proclaimed by both sides in the debate.


No no. I believe God did ENOUGH to lead them to believe in Him, but they didn't. If you DON'T admit that, then the people of Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be justly held accountable by God for their lives. They were merely victims of their environment, if that's the case.
But it is profoundly NOT the case, as one can see when reading, for example, Romans 1 and 2. All men can be held accountable by God because all men have been given SOME degree of revelation from God on which they should act.

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God is interested in us having faith. The question is, where does this faith come from? Is it out of the "goodness" of our hearts (the ones that were dead in sins and rejected God), or could it be that God gave it to us as a gift, and truly saved us by His mercy? Is it that we truly *didn't* deserve it, and that He saved those He had chosen out of His sovereign grace, as He is still doing? Or do we take credit for it, seeing as we, of course, believed in the first place?
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Again, we see the dichotomy here in your "either/or" mindset. It's either God doing it, or it's you doing it. Biblically, the answer is that man cooperates WITH God to accomplish his own salvation. This why Paul could boldly command us to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling, because it is GOD working in us. It's not one or the other, it's both. I completely agree that faith is a gift, and salvation itself is a gift and we didn't deserve it at all. But we also have to cooperate with that grace and not reject it, as so many have done.

I would say, He gives us the gift of faith, pouring His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit whom He has given to us.

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Amen.

I wish I had a quote from the Bible to back up these claims.

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You wish you had a quote from the Bible demonstrating that Scripture is multi-layered and often has deeper theological meanings than just the literal words on the page? Well, you could, for example, see the Apostle Paul's coomentary on the Torah in 1 Corinthians 10. Or his explanation of the Abrahamic Covenant as being through Christ to the Gentiles. Or the Apostle Peter's interpretation of the flood of Noah as a type of Baptism. Etc. etc. etc.

You don't need an explicit Bible verse for ever belief you hold about anything. For one, lots of things are implicit in the Bible, which we can logically deduce, without being directly stated. God's middle knowledge, as I said before, is a subset of his omniscience. If God knows ALL things, then BY DEFINITION, He has knowledge of all possible things, not just all actual things.


This doesn't necessarily follow, depending what you mean by it. The fact that someone has knowledge of something does not that person is the cause of it.


I made the opposite journey. I used to be very Calvinist, and realized over time that it did not jive either with Scripture or with logic.

BTW, do you accept EVERY doctrine put forward by Calvin?

　
I think we've over-simplified the issue here. Beliefs don't change by people just waking up one morning and deciding to have different beliefs all of a sudden. Internal and external influences play their part in guiding us toward what we believe. However, this doesn't preclude our free will in the process, either. The process is complex and doesn't just happen at the snap of a finger.



No one WOULD say that, because that's not how a change in one's belief works. People don't decide ahead of time what they're going to start believing TOMORROW, or some such thing. The process is much more organic and arises out of a much more honest process than something so trite.
　

So now if choice is involved there's no effort involved? Assumption upon assumption.


re: "People aren't going to choose to believe something that is ridiculous..."

But you're not asking just for possibilities or hypotheticals. You're asking someone to ACTUALLY change what they believe, in real time. Ergo, see my above comment. People aren't going to choose to believe something that is ridiculous.

Because people don't engage in certain beliefs to make a point about how beliefs work. This conversation is so silly I'm not even sure if you're being serious.


Well, depending on the belief, it could damn you to Hell, from a Christian perspective. At the very least, being known for holding a false belief makes you look quite silly, if not outright stupid or delusional. People aren't generally interested in that being said about them.

Well, my views are that God has a plan for each and everyone's lives. It's our choice on whether we choose to accept His will for our lives or walk away. God DOES NOT want people to perish.

Ezekiel 18:21
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “ rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘ As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Hi tartars;
Hope you're well.
I know that I wasn't forced, influenced or compelled into my believe. That was a gradual realisation of a higher power with whom I have a very personal, private & enjoyable relationship. Despite serving as a Chorister before age 7 & an education @ the RSCM, there was no forcing into believing @ age 7. I prefer things simple anyway, following my brain injury.

(But I would earnestly caution against walking into any bar in West Cork & proclaiming that the little people don't exist! They're as real as the IRA, PIRA & a desire for & belief in the unity of the four provinces!).
Best wishes
J.

I agree with you, but it is also taught that God has a plan and all things happen through him. Essentially, everything is already ordained. So what is the point of offering salvation if the it is already decided? I don't agree with that view, but a lot of people do.

Here's what I believe, based on what Scripture says, and based on what is written in my heart:

I know that I am saved. I praise God for that, and am so thankful to Christ Jesus for that.

I cannot say what the salvation of any other soul may or may not be. If and when God feels like sharing that information with me, that is up to God. I am neither responsible for nor subject to the salvation of any other soul except my own.

I think if everyone spent a little less time worried about the sins of their neighbors, and a little less time worried about their own creature comforts, and a little more time worried about their own sins, and a little more time worried about the creature comforts of their neighbors, this whole world would be a much better place.

My take on this concept is slightly different than yours. I believe that although God knows in advance what choices we are going to make, we still have the "free will" to make them. When we are created, God instills in us the free will to choose whatever life direction we want to take. He knows what we will choose, but He doesn't direct our choices.

With respect to what we believe, I believe that they are influenced by many factors, one of which is choice. I choose to believe that Christ died for my sins. There is no physical evidence that anyone can produce to support this idea, but I accept it as true, and live my life accordingly. The apostle, Paul, tells us that there is "...a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'” (Romans 1:17)

Yeah...I've tried, but I couldn't make much sense out of it. I think certain things do happen for a reason, but not EVERYTHING is predestination.

I BELIEVE BELIEF IS A CHOICE BECAUSE AFTER i AM CONVINCED IN MY MIND, THE TOTAL MAN CHOOSES TO ACCEPT IT OR NOT.

(Thus the somewhat futile route of disputation to salvation, and Paul's method "not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power." 1Cor2)

Best wishes to you all.

The whole discussion of free will vs. predestination is an ongoing battle. Theologians far greater than any of us have been arguing about it for thousands of years.

Some have compared it to a painting. If God is all-knowing and created everything, then life is like a painting. Everything is already set, decided. No free will.

I see it more like a play, into which God has written himself as a character; or better yet, an improv. There are some set parameters: rules of physics, etc. We are given a few basic plot lines we must follow, but we can fudge the lines a little. God is the director, and also an audience member and an actor. Sure, he has the power to give us set lines and force us to follow an absolute script, but out of love, he has decided to allow us to improvise. He wants to see what happens when we try to go it on our own, without a script.

So, yes, he is omniscient and omnipotent, but has chosen to release his knowledge and power in favor of allowing us free will.

Not sure if this makes sense.

They can't all be absolutely right and true with different views, can they?

I believe that belief is a choice, that true, God has preordained everything but that he knows that we can choose hell or choose him.

The more I read His Word the more I see that it is a choice and that he has a wonderful plan for our lives but we still have freewill even though he knows the outcome already.

I have freewill to go against God and I have freewill to do things for God.

Besides, I am thankful to have my name in the Book of Life, but I decided to believe because God shook to my very core when I was in a church in Peru.

I thought that just because I am singing, reading the Bible, and praying, doesn't mean that I have Jesus in my heart.

It was a decision that God helped me make through his Holy Spirit convicting me.

God did not create us like robots, who would be like be in robotic voices, "Yes, Master". No, he made us to love Him and we chose to go our own way, that is free-will. When it comes to the idea of freewill and saying that there is no true freewill, I believe that that is a heresy. Godspeed.

(I didn't know there were any theologians greater than us. )

It's not a choice if we aren't clear in the head. It is a choice if we are clear in the head.

The problem I have is this - if we truly had a freewill, who in their "right mind," their natural mind, would choose God?

Ephesians 2 doesn't say that we called on the Lord while dead in our sins, but that God saved us while we were dead in sin.

This is one of the most well put postings i have ever read. He is young as well! Kudos.