Book Club

I'm not keeping up with reading this first book. I'm not doing well in my statistics course this semester, and my sparse free time is chewed up studying so I don't fail this course. Maybe I can participate in discussions this summer.

Ok, then I guess I'll stick to a chapter a week then.

Well I'd disagree that he thinks his diary be beneficial. That's how he thought in chapter 1, but by the end of chapter 2 now he sees no hope in the diary. Winston realizes his diary is futile, thinking the Thought Police will destroy it and vaporize him. The lonely ghost telling his truth that no one will hear. Nevertheless Winston because he thinks he is a dead man has a lot of hope to continue on.

I can empathize a lot with Winston here. When you reach a point of being beaten down so much and knowing you are going to be condemned by the group, society, The Party, etc. just for speaking your truth, you just reach a point where you don't care any more. It somewhat takes the fear away of going against the group. At least that's what I took from it.

I see a flaw, here. You say "just for speaking YOUR truth". I think that is one of the themes of the book- fighting for truth against lies. Truth can not be relative, I can't have a truth and you have a truth, and Magenta have a truth, and Willie have a truth.

Truth is absolute- it is not plural, it is not divisible. There is truth and there is untruth- there are no gradations of truth. Something is either true or it isn't.

I don't love math, but it is satisfying to know that the truths of math are so easily discerned. Two plus Two always equals Four, never Five. It is true and unalterable.

Well yes truth is objective, but then everyone has a personal dealing with truth too. Willie, Magenta, you, and me can have a personal truth that is subjective to us and also objectively true too. For instance using math, objectively 2 + 2 = 4. Subjectively it is true to you that 2 + 2 will always equal 4. To me it is subjectively true that 2 + 2 = 99 - 95. Objectively the answer is still 4. Truth can be approached in many ways subjectively and still objectively yield the same result.

So for Winston his truth is subjective, he hates Big Brother, he hates the Party, he sees a lot of problems with the society he lives in even though others do not see the same as he does. Winston is not totally wrong either, in his subjective truth is objective truth that the Party is not good. Winston cannot express his subjective truth because that is in essence thoughtcrimes against the Party. Anyone whom expresses their subjective truth about the Party will be punished. The prole woman is a good example, subjectively true to her the scene at the movie of a dismembered child's arm was emotional and should not be shown to kids. The Party punishes her by banishing her from the movie theater and disregarding her thoughts and her individual personage as being typical prole behavior.

Heh I don't like math either though, math is mostly totally theoretical made purely to convince the world of lies, but that's for another topic.

I disagree, quite strongly. I may PERCEIVE something to be true- but it may be VERY, VERY false. Perception does not make something true or false. The truth is true- regardless of what filter the truth is subjected to. Let's say I am color blind, and see a strawberry and it does not look red but gray. You could not say that "my subjective truth is that the strawberry is gray, while your subjective truth is that the strawberry is red". The strawberry IS red, it matters not how I perceive it (actually it is not red, but absorbs all other wavelengths of the color spectrum and reflects red- but that is another story).

There is no such thing as subjective truth and objective truth. There is just truth. The main thrust of the book is truth v. lies- I believe you said this yourself.

Yes, 2+2=99-95, but that does not negate the truth. The truth is adding two things plus two things yields four things.

Well I'm not saying perception is truth. What I am saying is closer to what you say in the quote "The truth is true- regardless of what filter the truth is subjected to." That would be subjective truth, but also it is still objectively true. Truth can never negate itself even if it is approached in different ways.

I'd think a better example than color blindness be taste. Subjectively true to me, I like the taste of strawberries. Subjectively true to my mom she hates the taste of strawberries. Objectively true strawberries are a fruit that you can eat whether you like the taste or not.

I see Winston as hoping against hope that his diary will make a difference... somewhere, sometime. But his knowledge of reality makes it almost impossible to believe it will.

If he truly thought it was going to be vaporized, along with him, he would likely not bother writing it.... he's hoping for a miracle, and in some small way, preparing for it.

I think that his "exchanged glance" with the other guy at work has given him just a tiny flicker of hope.

When you talk about taste- that is OPINION. I like the taste of coffee- many people do not. Now, we can say that strawberries are sweet and coffee is bitter- TRUTH. Strawberries have fructose sugar and coffee has whatever it is that makes coffee beans bitter. These are TRUTHS. Whether you like or dislike coffee is your opinion.

Lol but it still be your truth that you like coffee even if others do not subjectively like coffee. Objectively, coffee is a drink that you can drink whether you like the taste or not. So if I say I don't like the taste of coffee therefore coffee is nasty, no one likes coffee, then it's not true because your truth is you like coffee. Opinions can be true or opinions can be false. Just because something is an opinion does not make it more or less true.

You are infuriating- I don't know if that is truth or opinion. (jk)

If I said coffee is naturally sweet- that would not be truth. If I said coffee is bitter- that would be truth. If I said coffee tastes bad, that is opinion- neither true or false but a matter of taste. If I said coffee tastes good, that is opinion- neither true or false.

If you were in Siberia, you'd be closer to North Korea and have a better shot at it than us.

I don't love math, but it is satisfying to know that the truths of math are so easily discerned. Two plus Two always equals Four, never Five. It is true and unalterable.

Well I'm not saying perception is truth. What I am saying is closer to what you say in the quote "The truth is true- regardless of what filter the truth is subjected to." That would be subjective truth, but also it is still objectively true. Truth can never negate itself even if it is approached in different ways.

Well yea I agree with most of this except the opinion part. It would depend if you're being honest with yourself and the person you are speaking to. It be a true opinion is you said coffee taste good and meant it. It be a lie if you said it does not taste good but you like the taste of it. If that makes sense.

I love Tuck Everlasting. Natalie Babbitt was a good author. If you have not read The Search for Delicious, it is good. I like reading books meant for kids.

Naboth started writing about the first chapter on this thread and then the second chapter- so both chapters kind of got glommed onto this thread. 1984 is depressing, I must say.

Lol we have subjective truths (relative to the person speaking it) and objective truth (scientifically testable and true for the majority of humanity perspections)

Opinions are subjective.

I believe Galatea prefers objective truths.

If you filter objective truths through individual perception it can become subjective.

Well yea I agree with most of this except the opinion part. It would depend if you're being honest with yourself and the person you are speaking to. It be a true opinion is you said coffee taste good and meant it. It be a lie if you said it does not taste good but you like the taste of it. If that makes sense.

People can lie about their opinions, sure. I thought Trump was lying about his conservative opinions- but he seems to have been expressing his true opinions.

I could LIE and say I despise coffee, and tell you a false opinion- but that would not be true, it would be a falsehood, a false opinion. If I said I enjoy rap music and think it is a form of art that is full of beauty- that is all a FALSE opinion and a LIE, because I would not be telling you my TRUE opinion about rap music.

I think focusing on objectivity vs. subjectivity strays a little far from what Orwell was getting at.

The heart of the matter is authority and power of narrative. How the totalitarian regime decides on what "truth" is and forcefully precludes inquiry of alternatives.

I think focusing on objectivity vs. subjectivity strays a little far from what Orwell was getting at.

That's kind of close to it. Perception really has nothing to do with it though. You can have a subjective personal truth and it still be the truth without perception being involved at all. Like maybe a better example be like in my personal truth I am not good at playing baseball. Now me not being good at baseball has nothing to do with my perception of my lack of baseball skills or the perception of others. It is both subjective and objectively true that I am not good at baseball.