I'm not going to rehash this old topic. I'm in the once saved always saved group. But what a believer can lose is rewards in Heaven. Salvation is permanent from the moment of belief. Rewards depend on what you do with the spiritual life you have been given. Some will be ashamed at the judgement seat of Christ and enter Heaven with little or no rewards. Others will hear the words, "Well done thou good and faithful servant", from Christ and enter with great rewards.
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In Hebrews 6:4-6 if it was not possible why even bother to warn someone of something that can't happen.It's not a warning to those who are not saved but it is a warning to those who are saved.
The writer of Hebrews does say that we are persuaded that you are not that way but why even give a warning if it doesn't matter anyway?
The writer of Hebrews does say that we are persuaded that you are not that way but why even give a warning if it doesn't matter anyway?
This is a warning to a believer who is so far outside the will of God for his life that he is in danger, not of losing his eternal salvation, but of coming under maximum discipline from God, AKA, the "sin unto death". This is a painful and premature death as the ultimate discipline from God on a believer who repeatedly refuses to change his evil way and live the spiritual life. You bet this is a warning!
To say that a believer in Christ can lose his salvation by some sin or evil action is to believe that God's promises can be broken. People break their promises all the time, but for God it is impossible because of His unchanging divine attributes. When God promises something, it will happen no matter what.
A few unbreakable promises from God concerning salvation:
"... whoever believes in Him (the Son) shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; ..." John 3:36
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." Acts 16:31
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24
I might add that there are no conditions placed on these promises, only that we believe. We can't add to the perfect and complete work of Christ on our behalf by doing works, or making promises that we will be better people etc. Remember that everything the unbeliever does is tainted by the old sin nature. Therefore, the works of men are totally unacceptable to perfect God. Only sinless Christ could pay the price of our salvation. He was the "lamb without spot or blemish", and therefore the only acceptable sacrifice for sin. Our part is to believe in the person and work of Christ. All who believe instantly become family of God, and no one can take us out of God's hand. We belong to Him forever.
But after salvation what? Do we follow the will and plan of God for our lives or do we go our own self-centered way? Do we return to lives characterized by sin, arrogance, rebellion, evil, and live just like any unbeliever? We are commanded to "grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet 3:18) If a believer chooses to ignore God and His Word, he will come under various degrees of discipline from God. The discipline continues and intensifies as long as the believer fails and rebels. So the scriptures warn believers against such rebellion. It is these warning passages (written to believers) that make people think you can lose your salvation. Again, when God promises something, it is iron clad and unbreakable because it is based on His integrity and who He is.
He also promises discipline to His children when they are out of line. This is another expression of God's love for his own.
"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent." Rev 3:19
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man sows, this he will also reap." Gal 6:7
A few unbreakable promises from God concerning salvation:
"... whoever believes in Him (the Son) shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; ..." John 3:36
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." Acts 16:31
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24
I might add that there are no conditions placed on these promises, only that we believe. We can't add to the perfect and complete work of Christ on our behalf by doing works, or making promises that we will be better people etc. Remember that everything the unbeliever does is tainted by the old sin nature. Therefore, the works of men are totally unacceptable to perfect God. Only sinless Christ could pay the price of our salvation. He was the "lamb without spot or blemish", and therefore the only acceptable sacrifice for sin. Our part is to believe in the person and work of Christ. All who believe instantly become family of God, and no one can take us out of God's hand. We belong to Him forever.
But after salvation what? Do we follow the will and plan of God for our lives or do we go our own self-centered way? Do we return to lives characterized by sin, arrogance, rebellion, evil, and live just like any unbeliever? We are commanded to "grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet 3:18) If a believer chooses to ignore God and His Word, he will come under various degrees of discipline from God. The discipline continues and intensifies as long as the believer fails and rebels. So the scriptures warn believers against such rebellion. It is these warning passages (written to believers) that make people think you can lose your salvation. Again, when God promises something, it is iron clad and unbreakable because it is based on His integrity and who He is.
He also promises discipline to His children when they are out of line. This is another expression of God's love for his own.
"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent." Rev 3:19
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man sows, this he will also reap." Gal 6:7
Its not possible. But Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't a warning either. It is showing what can be taught to CHRISTIANS and what is useless to teach to Christians.
The very first words of Hebrews 6:4 say that it is not possible.
But you have to read from the beginning of the chapter to understand what is being said.
The very first words of Hebrews 6:4 say that it is not possible.
But you have to read from the beginning of the chapter to understand what is being said.
Hebrews 6:1-2
[SUP]1[/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Read what is bolded in red especially carefully. This is about teaching christians. What is useful and what is not useful to teach.
Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Would you say this is also a warning to not crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame, or that it is impossible to crucify the Son of God again and put Him to an open shame?
There is no need to teach Christians Repentance because they already have repented. And if they did need to be taught they couldn't do it anyway, because its impossible.
You need to get into Hebrews 7,8,9,10 to see what is useful to teach to Christians.
Hebrews 7:24-28
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
[SUP]1[/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Read what is bolded in red especially carefully. This is about teaching christians. What is useful and what is not useful to teach.
Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Would you say this is also a warning to not crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame, or that it is impossible to crucify the Son of God again and put Him to an open shame?
There is no need to teach Christians Repentance because they already have repented. And if they did need to be taught they couldn't do it anyway, because its impossible.
You need to get into Hebrews 7,8,9,10 to see what is useful to teach to Christians.
Hebrews 7:24-28
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
If it had of said it is impossible to fall away then I wouldn't ask why we needed to be told that
but since the words if they should fall away to be renewed unto repentance was used I asked the question can a Christian be reprobate?because those things mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 or for a Christian and a Christian that is on food and not milk.
but since the words if they should fall away to be renewed unto repentance was used I asked the question can a Christian be reprobate?because those things mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 or for a Christian and a Christian that is on food and not milk.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is showing you a theoretical impossibility.
Inside that theoretical impossibility you are stumbling over the word 'if'.
If it were a warning to Christians the word 'if' wouldn't have been used and it wouldn't have been located inside the example of a theoretical impossibility.
It would have been a direct warning. You have salvation. Beware that you don't lose it. That's not being said or even discussed in this passage. But its what you are trying to make it say.
You can't lose your salvation. But, if it were possible, you wouldn't be able to gain it back by your work of repentance. Even with tears...
For it is impossible that a person could taste of the heavenly gift, receive the Holy Spirit and taste of the Good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they should fall away to lead them back to repentance.
IF all of that doesn't bring them into Faith in Christ our explanations of why they should repent won't do it. Its impossible.
Inside that theoretical impossibility you are stumbling over the word 'if'.
If it were a warning to Christians the word 'if' wouldn't have been used and it wouldn't have been located inside the example of a theoretical impossibility.
It would have been a direct warning. You have salvation. Beware that you don't lose it. That's not being said or even discussed in this passage. But its what you are trying to make it say.
You can't lose your salvation. But, if it were possible, you wouldn't be able to gain it back by your work of repentance. Even with tears...
For it is impossible that a person could taste of the heavenly gift, receive the Holy Spirit and taste of the Good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they should fall away to lead them back to repentance.
IF all of that doesn't bring them into Faith in Christ our explanations of why they should repent won't do it. Its impossible.
That was a pretty cool thing to say.
To come in with a differing view and be able to possibly see it from a different perspective just because some guy presented it differently is a very humble thing to say, much less do.
I did look at it from your perspective briefly. I came to the conclusion that the author of Hebrews is really, really intelligent and possessed a ton of wisdom. I'm assuming it was Paul. It 'sounds' like Paul.
Paul didn't have to use the word if. He could have used the word when. Just a thought I also had while I was looking at it from your perspective.
To come in with a differing view and be able to possibly see it from a different perspective just because some guy presented it differently is a very humble thing to say, much less do.
I did look at it from your perspective briefly. I came to the conclusion that the author of Hebrews is really, really intelligent and possessed a ton of wisdom. I'm assuming it was Paul. It 'sounds' like Paul.
Paul didn't have to use the word if. He could have used the word when. Just a thought I also had while I was looking at it from your perspective.
A
If the bible says someone is in the faith then that's where they are. You can't be partly in the faith or half in the faith. There is no scripture that tells us that this is a possibility. The same goes with being a branch connected to the vine . If you have a vine growing you only need to prune what is actually connected to the root stock. The bible would not say they were connected if they were not. You're either in the kingdom or not. There is no fence sitting.