I'm an Atheist. Ask me anything.

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T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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#41
That kinda helps... Still don't get how if it all came from one place it be ame separate things.. If birds evolved why into so many things? Just seems to make no logical sense but I think that is because I'm missing how slowly this happened which is why it can't be recreated, thus is a theory not a scientific fact...

Thanks for the explanation... I will correct you on only one point, I am not pleased with the question, it simply was a question. I had thought about it a lot because having grown up around animals, for one we breed dogs, it just confuses me. I under stand how dog breeds work as you pointed out but they always stay dogs.. My limited misunderstanding of the theory of evolution is to blame for me not getting how a puddle of stuff eventually became so many things. Basically science can say it but to me it defies logic based upon the perceptions from my very limited life expeiriance.

Anyhow I see what you are saying still don't buy evolution on that level. As stated I get things evolve, I get that man can mess with dogs be breeding only runts to make a smaller breed... Just don't see fish becoming birds, for one thing if they did well why can I still go catch fish like our native salmon? It's not really a question you need answer. After all the composer of this theory once believed all frogs could live in water and drowned many a tree frog proving himself wrong.

But to clarify I was saying its null and void because whatever came to be first was not a baby! Has nothing to do with dogs or sizes... Fish are the only animal I know which can survive without a parent caring for them. Point being okay bird has mutant chicken baby and cares for it that's fine... What cared for its parents.. Then it's parents even if evolved at some point an animal has to be the first animal. It had to be created grown enough to care for itself.. So the question is still in evolution how did the first baby whatever animals survive?

Again thank you for a well concluded explanation But still my answer seems to me unanswered.
No I agree 100% macro evolution does not make sense... The biggest achillie's heel to evolution is the lack of "Missing link fossils"... Like you said, you don't understand how a fish can become a chicken... I don't either, but I understand that is what they believe... Just like they don't understand what the Holy Spirit feels like... But they can read Corinthians, and see what it does...

If you really want a brain twister i suggest you start searching up the primordial soup... In a nut shell evolutionist's believe in 2 popular theories... People like Richard Dawkins believe in a seeded earth, where aliens brought life here... And an other atheist group believe, mud on the back of crystals started to change over time and created the first single celled organism...


P.s. When I said you were pleased/happy with your question it was not a insult... But more so a bad way of information I put together... I apologize
 

alexis

Banned by Admin Team (verified fraud)
Dec 5, 2013
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#42
No I agree 100% macro evolution does not make sense... The biggest achillie's heel to evolution is the lack of "Missing link fossils"... Like you said, you don't understand how a fish can become a chicken... I don't either, but I understand that is what they believe... Just like they don't understand what the Holy Spirit feels like... But they can read Corinthians, and see what it does...

If you really want a brain twister i suggest you start searching up the primordial soup... In a nut shell evolutionist's believe in 2 popular theories... People like Richard Dawkins believe in a seeded earth, where aliens brought life here... And an other atheist group believe, mud on the back of crystals started to change over time and created the first single celled organism...


P.s. When I said you were pleased/happy with your question it was not a insult... But more so a bad way of information I put together... I apologize
Thats fine don't apologize please you are awesome!
i word things poorly

And that's interesting the soup thing...

by the way I like you, hope that it didn't seem other wise! You make good points and have better perspective than I do, more education about these things.

Thank you :)
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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#43
oh-stop-you-make-me-blush.jpg


...........................
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#44
Hi there, umm What testimony? I already know I am saved? What's to be unsure of? Maybe wrong person?
Well, I suppose it could be someone else, but it was included on your "profile" page, so I just figured it was you........ :)

HERE IT IS..........
My background is atheist. In 2010 something happened, the Lord called me, he told me to go to church. I cried until a friend took me, I attended maybe 3 sessions. I believe he sent me there for a reason because during a service the person who speaks said that we needed to introduce ourselves to God and ask him to come into our lives. I did, from then I have had a relationship with the Lord and Jesus Christ comparable to no other. I believe not long after this introduction I had an amazing test of faith. I have more faith in the Lord than I do in myself, but I am learning to believe in myself too. I have had prayers answered and he has shared wisdom with me. Sometimes I feel like my heart and soul is going to burst out beyond my physical being. The Lord and love is amazing. Live for the Lord not for yourself, do things for gain for the Lord, not for yourself, do not harm others - big or small, pray not only for yourself pray for others, pray not only for the gain of yourself or others but pray meaningful thanks to the Lord and Jesus Christ always, feel thankful and feel love for everything in this world because God has created everything for you and I, Jesus died on the cross for you and I. Love with your whole heart and soul and Remember that we are blessed ♥

as well..............under "spiritual status" you wrote.............. "unsure."
 
Nov 30, 2013
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#45
Well, I suppose it could be someone else, but it was included on your "profile" page, so I just figured it was you........ :)

as well..............under "spiritual status" you wrote.............. "unsure."
Hi p_rehbein,

Coming from an atheist background I never knew what the word christian meant so that is why my spiritual status said "unsure" but I just looked it up and I would happily call myself christian, so thanks for urging me to find the definition. I suppose I should change that now :)
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#46
I have a question..amazing isnt it? Lol
As you have said you know quite abit about the Bible and so forth, id assume you'd know Paul the Apostle confessed of himself to be very learned of the scriptures of the highest order of the religious sects in his lifetime. Then you can see he never really knew God until he haf his encounter on the road to Damascus. My question is, have you, do you or could you ever consider yourself to be like Paul was before his encounter?
 

Fenner

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2013
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#47
Do you like Cheerios? You said ask anything.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#49
Sorry for the hiatus, everyone. Thank you for your continued interest in this thread.

Before I continue with answers, some are still raising questions about my purpose here. Allow me to address this momentarily:

First of, I think I need to clarify one thing. For those of you who have not come across them in the past, "ask me anythings" are a fairly common phenomenon on the internet, particularly on the social networking site Reddit. It allows you to ask questions of someone with a lifestyle different from your own. For instance, one person might post "I am a vegan. Ask me anything."

Recognizing now that some folks might not be used to seeing these, I regret not explaining this in my original post. I don't mean it as in "come at me, I know the answer to EVERYTHING". I'll be the first to admit that that's not the case.

As I said earlier, there are some things about Atheism that puzzle people. We also have a certain reputation: we can be described as abrasive, insensitive, etc. Of course the ones who are get the most attention and spend the most time berating people on online forums. I'm only reaching out to folks who might have an interest in dealing with one of us who is not a mean-spirited lunatic. Perhaps that is what I am, but I have received several messages of support for posting this from people who are interested. The positive posts have been overwhelmingly more numerous than the negatives, so I intend to continue this conversation.

If you think that what I am doing here is inappropriate on this forum, then I encourage you to contact the administrators of this website. I don't intend to spew my opinions unless someone asks about them, in which case I will be answering them honestly and to the best of my ability. I don't want this to turn into a hostile arguments. If someone posts "you're wrong", I'm not going to post "no, you're wrong". I will try not to respond to statements, only specific questions.

Some of you have stated that I have nothing of interest to tell you. Perhaps that is the case. I prefer to think that we can learn something from everyone. If you feel that I can't have anything to say worth reading, then this thread is obviously not intended for you. I encourage you to find one that you consider more valuable.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#50
@posthuman:

Thank you very much for your post, it was extremely thought-provoking and as you can maybe tell by the length of this post one that I was very much interested in addressing.

I don't believe that we know everything. I don't pretend that for a second. There are a great many puzzles in this world that we haven't solved yet. However, I think religion is quick to classify unsolved puzzles as unsolvable puzzles. A thousand years ago, why the sun rose every morning and set every night was a question that was not properly answered. So how ought we deal with the unknown?

It seems to me that religion is used as a convenient answer to questions, and that that may be inappropriate.

Here's a simple list of example questions:
Q- Where does the universe come from?
A- ?

Q- Does life have a purpose?
A- ?

Q- What is the origin of life?
A- ?

Admittedly, these are questions that science has not answered; However, as I say, this is substantially different than saying they cannot be answered. Here's how it seems to me that religion accomplishes the job:

Q- Where does the universe come from?
A- God

Q- Does life have a purpose?
A- Yes, it's God

Q- What is the origin of life?
A- God

To me this seems like a misstep. The question seems to be answered because there's no question mark in the answer column, but have we just arbitrarily given the question mark a name instead?

So that raises two scenarios:
Person A believes that his life is finite. He believes that the universe is incredibly complicated and that there are puzzles which are unsolved, but are nevertheless solvable. He believes that he has but the extent of his rather short tenure in existence and his own observations to contribute to furthering his understanding.

Person B believes that the answer to the questions is out there. They believe that they were created in the answer's image, that the answer is invested enough to have an opinion on the minutiae of their day to day life and that they have a pretty good idea what those opinions are.

posthuman, you seem to be suggesting that option one is more presumptuous than the second. I disagree.

As I say, my position does require me to feel that these puzzles are solvable. Perhaps this is what people mean when they say that Atheism demands a certain amount of faith; I myself have never been 100% sure that I knew in what sense they meant this. Hopefully this thread will offer me some insight.

I don't have any quarrel with believing something, just believing something without reason. Many of you may have good reasons for believing in God from your point of view. That is wonderful. If you do not except for the sake of faith itself, then I respect that but I doubt I will ever be able truly to understand this.

My own reasons for this "faith" are simply based on precedent. Humans keep chipping away at the edge of the mysteries. As I said, at one point people did not have an explanation for why the sun rose and set without re-designating the question mark as God. We now have a workable explanation. There was once no conception of how life could have developed into such intricate creatures. We now have a relatively workable theory on how this may have happened. Within that theory, there are always people pointing at gaps in the fossil record, saying that there is a missing link here or there. Yet one by one the missing links fall into place and the question marks grow fewer and fewer. Poetically, the "God particle", a previously unaccounted-for piece of the puzzle which us explain how gravitation works was observed in the summer of 2012. And the question marks get fewer and fewer.

I certainly don't think that my 22 years on Earth qualifies me to do away with 1000's of years of history and discovery. I don't see myself as doing that. I see myself as a part of that progression, though it seems you disagree. Humans have been gaining knowledge for the entire extent of their existence. More recently they have begun recording it for future use, improvement, re-visitation, so on. Science, from Newton (and in many cases earlier), forward has been published carefully and deliberately to allow for peer review, revisiting, reevaluation. We are constantly improving our understanding. This is an incredibly noble cause. I only ask the question of whether or not it is appropriate for us to make the question marks seem more fully understood by relabeling, or whether we might be in a better position if we are to call them exactly what they are - unsolved - and proceed with trying to remedy that. I simply worry that if you think you know how something works, you won't be particularly likely to continue trying to explain how.

As for how 98% of the billions of humans who have lived on Earth could be mistaken, I think it may be even more extreme than that. I've seen estimates of 99.99% before and acknowledge that. However, as I said, I believe that everyone must follow their own logic, and that if mine doesn't agree with the majority opinion, that doesn't warrant changing it.

There are some people today who regard religion as a scientific hypothesis in itself. Daniel Dennett's book "Breaking the Spell" is a prime example for anyone interested in this viewpoint. In an extremely condensed version, the idea is that folks saw things that they couldn't explain and that based on their observations they reasoned that their must be an outside force that could account for these. This might start from something as simple as why a volcano would erupt. This was a question mark for them that they named God. But as I have mentioned, these question marks become less and less numerous. To me the statistic that 98 (or even 99.99)% of humans have believed in a Theos gives me about as much pause as that for most of history it has been assumed that the world was flat and that this is still a remarkably common assumption in some parts of the world.

For me, the fact that the percentage of the population in most industrialized countries of people who affiliate themselves with no religion (it would be very difficult to approximate how many of those people are Atheists or Agnostic or what have you, largely due to the confusion over definition that Richie_2uk very helpfully presented us with) has made its way well into the double digits means that people are seeing the vanishing question marks - that they see more and more often that which was once labeled the work of God may have an explanation that is not supernatural in anyway. The need for God to explain these puzzles inexorably shrinks with every alternate explanation that we can offer.

I hope that I have answered your question.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#51
@Richie_2uk: while your post was long, it was one of the more concise explanations of the distinctions and I think was very accurate and hopefully will benefit others as well.

Yes, I would consider myself an implicit Atheist, not believing that there is not a God, but not believing that there is.

As you say, this alone can be mischaracterized as agnosticism.

I would argue that Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive. I would argue the same about Agnosticism and Theism. If you believe that there is a God but are uncomfortable saying "yes, I have zero, literally zero doubt that there is a God", then you would be Agnostic in the same way that I would be uncomfortable saying "yes, I have zero, literally zero doubt that there is NOT a God".
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#52
I am quite glad that someone made this connection. The SN is somewhat of a double-entendre, my name is Matthew and my birthday is June 25. It was also one of my personal favorite verses as a Christian and remains so as an Atheist.

Again, here is someone for whom this thread is not meant. I hope they find something more fulfilling to read, I just thought I would clarify for anyone else who noticed that yes, my screenname is an allusion to that particular passage from the Book of Matthew.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#53
I would be wary to word it exactly that way. As I mentioned in another post, this makes it sound like I will take anything a biologist says as the absolute truth without qualification.

If you read my response to posthuman you may be interested in the portion where I talk about how science inexorably answers questions that were once considered the sole reign of religion. In this sense what you say is true. I think evolution does rather a good job of explaining how life might have developed to the point that we find it today. For me it solves another puzzle for which religion once claimed to be the only possible answer and therefore chips away at any notion I might have that a god would be necessary to find the universe in the condition in which it presents itself to us today.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#54
While I respect some of the work he's done, he does come off rather lizardy, doesn't he? lol
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#55
Yes, I take a lot of enjoyment out of my dreams.

I cannot answer this question with any degree of certainty, this is a subject I don't know much about at all. I imagine it would be a very interesting question to research, however!

I can't think of a specific one of the top of my head. My dreams tend to contain people from my relatively distant past (as a 22 year old, that'd really only be from about a decade ago) in an environment that is entirely invented - houses made of strange materials, geometrically sloping outdoor scenes, etc.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#56
@LovelyU:

I'm glad that you defend your beliefs to your partner!
I greatly appreciate your post. I wish all the best for you and your family.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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#57
My turn????? Post number 17????
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#58
@Alexis:

Hi! I like your profile picture. I'm an audio engineer so it always nice to meet other musicians.

I appreciate that you are not trying to be rude or argumentative. That's certainly not how I took it. This is exactly the sort of question that I posted hoping to be able to answer. I don't mind if someone understands the theory of evolution and then decides to disagree with it. It does bother me a little when someone thinks that I think their grandfather was a chimpanzee and discredits me because they misunderstand what I think, so I'm glad you're here to talk about this.

As T_Laurich points out, whether or not evolution is or is not the way that life developed, you seem to have some misconceptions about it.

Some of what I say here will borrowed from the book "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins, who is a biologist and a notoriously abrasive Atheist. He has written some books attacking religion as a whole. "The Greatest Show on Earth" is not one of them, it just argues for evolution. Arguing for evolution may or may not be an attack on your specific brand of religion, so I won't recommend to everyone, but this book does an extraordinary job of explaining what evolution is and what it is not. If you are genuinely interested in understanding this theory fully, I highly recommend it. In fact, I'd be happy to send you my copy.

Firstly, the theory doesn't state that one species can give birth to an animal of a completely different species. Ultimately what we're looking at are extremely tiny differences from generation to generation that add up to quite a difference over time. For instance, think about your mother. You probably look rather like her when she were your age (your post says you're 15, so we will go with that). You probably look slightly less like your grandmother did at 15 than your mother did at 15, but your mother still looks rather like your grandmother did. Your ancestors 50 generations ago probably bear little to no resemblance to you or your immediate ancestors.

What does it matter whether they look like you or not though, right? They were still human.

The key lies in the timeline that we're dealing with. Species don't change much when we talk about them in the thousands of years. However, expand this to a million years (1000 thousands), and the animal we have at the beginning of this million years may could quite different from its descendant hundreds of thousands of generations down the line.

Again, what does it matter what they look like?

Well, there are certain physical attributes that can be helpful when it comes to survival.

I'm going to give you a hypothetical example. Let's make up an animal. It's a little like a horse and it's environment is the african savannah. Let's say the grass on the savannah isn't particularly good to eat and its best to graze on the leaves of trees. Two of these animals are grazing together. One has a very slightly longer neck than the other. While the one with the shorter neck can still reach the bottom leaves, it will not be able to reach some of the ones that the animal with the longer neck can reach. This means that animals in this scenario with longer necks will generally get more nutrients and will generally have a better chance of surviving to have children then those with shorter necks. This is known as natural selection. Animals who are best 'optimized' to their environment enjoy the best chance of survival - this is the survival of the fittest. A slightly higher number of short necked animals will die before they reach the age where they can reproduce. Since the long-necked ones have more children, the next generation has longer necks on average. Some with shorter necks still remain, but over a series of generations they will always be slightly disadvantaged and will eventually cease to be able to thrive as much as the long necked ones (mathematically, this is due to the law of large numbers). Each generation will successively favor longer necks until over the course of a HUGE timespan, we've gone from something that looks like a horse to something that looks rather like a giraffe.

Changes such as this aren't just hypothetical (although they are still theoretical; I will get to this in a moment). We can induce similar changes in animals over several generations, within the span of a human life. Since your family breeds dogs, maybe you will have heard of this:

A Russian researcher has left us an excellent example: He decided to breed foxes. He took a large number of wild foxes and tested them for how friendly they were to humans (typically foxes are skittish and can be aggressive). He took the most friendly among the group and separated them from the rest, then bred them. The result was that their children were generally friendlier than the group of foxes he had started with. He then took the friendliest among these foxes and bred them again, over and over. In each generation the friendliest foxes had the best chance of making it to the next round of breeding - that is, they had better odds of passing on their genes to the next generation. In this way he simulated how nature might favor some variations of the same species over the other (it's called artificial selection when it's induced by humans, your family very well might use it in their breeding practices). The difference between the foxes he started with and the resulting foxes is drastic enough that the foxes are naturally docile enough that the project is able to sell these foxes as pets, where their ancestors would have been highly aggressive.

One could make the argument that they simply trained them to a greater extent and that this is the cause of their friendliness, but they did the opposite experiment, breeding the most aggressive foxes of each batch and ended up with some very mean-tempered foxes.

Now, since you breed dogs, you'll also notice that while a beagle and a boston terrier are both dogs, they are rather different.

So animals might change from generation to generation, but how is it that we end up with different species? Again, the theory's answer to this is essentially time. It states that in the not too distant (anthropologically speaking) past, something similar may have been done with wolves: that the wolves which were most comfortable around people might have had an advantage to surviving to see the next generation. Perhaps those who scavenged from humans' camps had a higher survival rate than those who had to fend for themselves in the wild. Here you see the population split into two. The wolves who live off of human food scraps, etc. tend to survive better if they are more docile. The wild population has a better chance of surviving if they remain aggressive.

It is also important to remember that it isn't one single aspect of an animal changing over time, it is many of them. The wolves that are friendlier to humans might also have a better chance of getting scraps if they are cuter. This has no practical importance in terms of how they would survive in the wild, but once you introduce them to a new environment it very well could and two traits are changing simultaneously. In fact, there are too many possible variations of genetic traits to list here or pretty much anywhere, substantially more than two of them could mutate from generation to generation.

This is how one type of animal can become several distinctive types. If we started with a wolf-like creature in the last example, what we ended up with over ten of thousands of years are two very distinctly different types of animals: modern dogs and modern wolves. Eventually, the genetics diverge so drastically that the two species can no longer reproduce with one another and we now have two separate species instead of one.

Think of it in terms of languages. Most modern languages are young enough that we have pretty complete histories of where they come from. Many European languages come from Latin. I'm not a linguist so this will be highly oversimplified, but imagine at the fall of the roman empire, everyone speaks Latin. These many people are divided into separate groups. As the Middle Ages set in, roads fall into disrepair and travel is considered rather dangerous. People pretty much live and die wherever they were born. Over a series of generations in these tiny (by modern standards) communities, people change the way they pronounce words, the way they use grammar, cases, tenses, make up new words and expressions, all separate from the other communities that had once spoken the same language. In some places during the Middle Ages, the difference in language between people who had been isolated for so long from one another was such that eventually having a conversation with a person in a town within several miles was virtually impossible. Today we're left with distinct languages, many from the same source. Latin evolved into several modern languages with some similarities, but essentially mutually unintelligible - as though they had become different species from one another.

This is similar to biological evolution. The theory is a population becomes isolated and eventually evolves in a different way than the population it was separated from until they're so different that they no longer can be considered the same group.

Also important to note is that one trait can have an unintended effect on the other. In the fox experiment, the breeder bred only on the basis of which foxes were tamer. However, each successive generation got floppier ears, some started to develop spots. Genes are extremely complicated, its theorized that the gene for docility might have been sort of packaged with the gene for floppy ears so when you get one, you get both.

So the question, after experiments like the foxes (similar experiments have been done with multiple other animals and plants as well) is not, as you note, "can change occur over time?". It is "can it occur to the extent that we would eventually end up with a completely different species?"

My take is that if we can produce two drastically different types of foxes over as short a period as fifty years, its certainly not implausible that these changes amplified by the hundreds of thousands or millions might yield two animals that are not distinguishable as the same species.

I don't wanna load you up with evidence for evolution unless you ask for it since I said I was only going to answer direct questions and this post is already a little out of hand. I also don't want to discuss those on the forum until I hit T_Laurich's second post, which I meant to do tonight but it'll have to wait for another day.

When you say "it can't be recreated", that is to some extent true. We can't take an early primate and get to a human in the matter of a few years (or even a few thousand). We can induce some pretty drastic changes, though, as I've explained.

You mentioned that this might be it is classified a "theory". It certainly contributes to people using that title but even that wouldn't be enough to classify it as fact. The real reason is no one was there to watch it happen, so no matter how much proof we come up with, someone will always be able to say "yeah, but maybe not".

I don't think that the term 'theory' is inappropriate to describe evolution, but it can be misleading. The Oxford Dictionary lists several definitions for the word 'theory':

Def. 1: A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed.

Def. 2: A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.

People often use the word 'theory' to suggest that evolution fits under the second definition. It does not; It belongs under the first.

The reason it is considered a theory by scientists is because the standard of what is 'fact' in science is extremely high. While we are comfortable calling something we are 99% sure of a fact in daily conversation with one another, this is not the case in science. 2+2=4 is a fact. There is no other possible answer. Evolution has several alternative explanations, one is creationism. However, from a scientific standpoint evolution is the least complex. You may have heard of Occam's Razor. It is often misquoted as stating "the simplest explanation is always the correct one", while in actuality it means something closer to "the simplest solution is the one which we will deal with in the mean time, until it is either discredited or something else starts to seem more likely".

I imagine I wouldn't have too much difficulty convincing you that the Earth orbits around the Sun. Technically, this is classified as a theory (known as the heliocentric theory) in science. It is not the only possible explanation. The universe could move in such a bizarre fashion that it would merely seem as though this was the case. However, the heliocentric theory is simpler to the alternatives and according to Occam's razor is therefore the one with which we choose to deal.

Finally, you mention that - if true - evolution would be a matter of chance. I think that this is partially the case. If we go back to our African horse animals, our first two had slightly different neck lengths - one long and one short. There is a certain amount of chance involved in this. One happens to have a slightly longer neck, the way you might happen to be slightly taller than one of your classmates. What happens next is not chance. The longer-necked animal does not pass on its genes by chance, it passes them on because due to its physical attributes it survived more effectively than animals with shorter necks. The fact that we ultimately end up with giraffes isn't chance. It wouldn't have been equally probable that we end up with lizards - lizards would never have evolved in that environment because the attributes that make a lizard a lizard aren't useful there. Ultimately, the theory is that the environment guides the evolutionary process to its logical conclusion, which is never really a conclusion but just another step towards whatever will exist in the future.
 
M

Matthew6-25

Guest
#59
I apologize, I thought I would breeze through my last post and get to yours but I got carried away, as you can see. I promise to respond to yours once I've had a chance to look into the examples you posted.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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#60
@Alexis:

The reason it is considered a theory by scientists is because the standard of what is 'fact' in science is extremely high. While we are comfortable calling something we are 99% sure of a fact in daily conversation with one another, this is not the case in science. 2+2=4 is a fact. There is no other possible answer. Evolution has several alternative explanations, one is creationism. However, from a scientific standpoint evolution is the least complex. You may have heard of Occam's Razor. It is often misquoted as stating "the simplest explanation is always the correct one", while in actuality it means something closer to "the simplest solution is the one which we will deal with in the mean time, until it is either discredited or something else starts to seem more likely".

I imagine I wouldn't have too much difficulty convincing you that the Earth orbits around the Sun. Technically, this is classified as a theory (known as the heliocentric theory) in science. It is not the only possible explanation. The universe could move in such a bizarre fashion that it would merely seem as though this was the case. However, the heliocentric theory is simpler to the alternatives and according to Occam's razor is therefore the one with which we choose to deal.
I think you are mistaken about what the science community holds evolution to be...

A theory is not a fact... And science is not 99% sure about evolution... On the premise of macro which you are arguing for...

A theory is something yet to be disproven or even proven.... The only thing needed to have a theory is to have a fallsifiable hypothesis... E.G the moon is made out of cheese is a theory...... And to compare macro-evolution to heilocentrism is arrogant in the clearest sense...

See you negate 2 things... First is very clear and easy to understand... You say its change over millions of years... Very very small change... Well that is all fine and dandy... You can explain small changes like breeding foxes in micro evolution... But you negate the fact these changes would be beyond easy to identify through fossil records... The fossils would indicate over millions of years a certain gazelle like animal started to get a 3 foot neck then a 4 foot neck then a 5 then a 6 then a 7 and so on... The fossils would show a correlation from the one fossil above and below and dissipating correlation the further off you go... The funny thing is though... Not once has the scientific community brought a CORRECT transitional fossil to light... Even 1 fossil of a gazelle like animal then one of a 6 foot neck, then one with a 12 foot neck would astound the scientific world... And you guys would eat up the media... You might not remember your little horse to big horse theory in 1980's... Or your single celled organism to jelly fish theory...

The second is a little bit more intellectual...

See you are using micro to explain macro... And on the surface it sounds amazing... However, that is 100% incorrect...

You use the example of the foxes and then say that it is not implausible that macro can occur since micro has been achieved in a contained environment... Well on the surface it sounds like a very swell argument and thesis off of the evidence you have given... However, you are negating what is happening in these changes... To get random changes (the way you see it) through time is pretty hard... lets say we have 2 animals; 5 red 5 blue.... Now what your hypothesis is saying is through breeding over time you can get a species of yellow animals... But you must understand what a animal is... A animal is a set/group of organism's that can reproduce after its own kind... E.g. once you get your yellow animals; according to your theory: must gain the information to replicate yellow animals... But in order for that to happen you need the gene's in that animal to RANDOMLY combine/form... 50% from the mother 50% from the father being in random combination... That is to get your yellow animal, now in order to keep your yellow cat you now have to have the chromosomes to randomly forget they are a mutated blue/red animal (Or for it to forget that the animal is a downs-syndrome/still born or mule...) And to assign the trait of yellow as the dominate reproducible trait... Mendel's theory would be fun to get into...

You seem to forget that the change inside a chromosome from a wolf to a dog is hard enough to explain... Gene's are so wildly complicated... But to use that change which has only been proven under controlled environments to explain the combination of chromosomes... The removal of certain chromosomes.... Is so outrageous that I would love for you to explain it... Please explain when a human has 45 or 46 or 47 chromosomes...

Change through controlled environments in micro evolution... Does not explain macro....


Edit: my questions on this were rhetorical because I cannot wait to see what you have for my other post... If you truly do feel obligated to answer this one then go ahead... Btw no hard feelings I understand how it is to get 1,000 questions thrown at you by the antagonist side...
 
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