Liberal Christian

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Brandon777

Guest
#21
#21
TheGrungeDiva said:
I would say I stand by GOD for everything I believe. Yes, the Bible is the Word of God. I just see, sometimes, some Christians seem to worship the Bible rather than the God who wrote it. I'm not saying you do that: from what I have seen in these boards, you recognize the difference. But there are a lot of Christians who seem to idolize Scripture rather than the Author.
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I wonder what you mean about this. To me standing for God and standing for the Bible are one and the same. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." My question to you is why do you capitalize Scripture when you write it?

I'll respond to the rest later.
 
Ritter

Ritter

Banned
#22
Jul 25, 2005
2,417
34
0
#22
TheGrungeDiva said:
Okay, would you have preferred me to have said, "I'd rather be an oxymoron than a moron." Is that witty enough?

I simply responded in kind to the post. Sorry if you disapprove :p
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Yes, that would've been much more tolerable. I would've just let him slide if I were you, but whatev. Your OP, your rules.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#23
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#23
TheGrungeDiva said:
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only liberal Christian on here. Are there others who are devoutly Christian and still accept evolution, support Obama, etc?

I know there are a lot of us in "the real world." According to several polls (pew, gallop, etc.), a majority of those who claim Jesus as their savior are liberal in their beliefs. I know some would say we aren't "real Christians," but I believe that having confessed Jesus makes me a Christian, no matter what anyone else says.

Why are there so few of us here in this forum?
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I don’t think it is helpful for Christians to divide up into opposing camps.
 
Kimber321

Kimber321

Senior Member
#24
Jan 31, 2011
119
7
18
#24
All I know is what is clearly obvious. Do earthly creations evolve? Of course they do. We have abundant evidence of that. So, clearly, what God created evolves. Of course, the ape to man thing is a crock. Anything that evolutionists claim that is in opposition of Biblical text is a crock. Not that die hard evolutionists are intentionally wrong. They just haven't found the truth yet. :) But, quite obviously, God's creations have and do evolve. Do they evolve into an entirely different species? I don't think so. Do they evolve to adapt to their environment for means of survival? It would be impossible to disprove that.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#25
#25
Brandon777 said:
I wonder what you mean about this. To me standing for God and standing for the Bible are one and the same. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." My question to you is why do you capitalize Scripture when you write it?

I'll respond to the rest later.
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I didn't say Scripture was not important. On the contrary, I believe that Scripture IS the Word of God, and should be read carefully and followed. It's just that sometimes people's interpretations of Scripture seem to them more important than God himself.

God is love. Period. That is the basis from which all else flows. If an interpretation of Scripture disagrees with that basis, then the interpretation is wrong. However, some people say, "Scripture says it, I believe it, that settles it." They don't get that what they are embracing is not God, but their own interpretation, which is actually contradicting the simple "God is Love" statement.

I hope that explains what I mean better.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#26
#26
Kimber321 said:
Of course, the ape to man thing is a crock.
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Evolution does not teach that apes turned into man. It teaches that both apes and man have a common evolutionary ancestor.

This is what bothers me about every argument about evolution. Those who say evolution is wrong don't even know what evolution teaches.

Imagine if someone said, "Christianity teaches that humans should eat other humans. Therefore Christianity is wrong." Every time you tried to tell them that their basic premise is faulty, they just say, "Well, I have studied Christianity, and that's what it teaches, so anything you, as a Christian, says must be false."

Can you imagine how frustrating that might be? You would try to tell them the Truth, but they refuse to listen. This is how frustrated I get with people who deny evolution. They just don't understand what evolution teaches, and they refuse to admit that they're wrong. Their mind is made up, and they cling to this untruth.

The world is millions of years old. This has been proven scientifically. This is not a "theory" as in a guess, it is absolute fact. Speciation, the mutation of one thing into another species, has been proven scientifically. Every time something new is discovered about evolution, it confirms the theory, and nothing has never been found that disproves the theory. There is no "missing link" -- that is something some Christian made up to say that evolution is wrong, but it doesn't exist. Darwin never "recanted on his deathbed." That is an urban legend that has no basis in fact.

I don't expect you to reject Scripture and embrace evolution. Millions of devout Christians accept evolution as true, and do not have to reject Scripture to do it. They may change their interpretations of Scripture, but if their faith is strong, this would not lead to disbelief or atheism.

I also don't insist that you educate yourself on what evolution teaches, just that you refrain from saying it's wrong unless or until you bother to study it. And when I say "study" it, I don't mean read what Christians who deny it claim it teaches, I mean study it from a source that assumes it is true. Obviously, any source that believes it is false is going to mislead you, just as you would not learn about Jesus from an atheist.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#27
#27
resurrection33 said:
I don’t think it is helpful for Christians to divide up into opposing camps.
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As long as some Christians believe things differently, and claim that other Christians are wrong, such divisions are necessary.
 
jandian

jandian

Senior Member
#28
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#28
I think this is an excellent discussion. And in some ways I understand what the Grunge Diva is saying. lol It feels really wired saying that... However, from the things you are saying, I get the feeling you are referring to "reglious beliefs" as in the practice of religion as opposed to relationship which leads to more revelation. Am I right?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#29
#29
jandian said:
I think this is an excellent discussion. And in some ways I understand what the Grunge Diva is saying. lol It feels really wired saying that... However, from the things you are saying, I get the feeling you are referring to "reglious beliefs" as in the practice of religion as opposed to relationship which leads to more revelation. Am I right?
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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I am referring to both, I think.

I have religious beliefs, and I also have a relationship with Jesus. I don't see why the two are opposed to each other. In fact, without a relationship with Jesus, I don't understand how one could have religious beliefs, at least not within the religion of Christianity. And without religious beliefs, I'm not sure how one could have a relationship with Jesus. I mean, if you don't believe in Jesus, how can you have a relationship with him?

I have heard many people say, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship." That's just a bunch of crock, seriously. Christianity IS a religion. By definition of the word religion and by definition of the word Christianity. And why would something being a relationship preclude it from being a religion? People who say that have no clue what "religion" means, and since they often say that to show how superior they are to others who just aren't as Christian as they are (in their mind), I wonder if they really know what it means to have a relationship with Jesus.

It's be like saying, "I'm not a mammal, I'm a human." I mean, you just make yourself look stupid if you say something like that.
 
jandian

jandian

Senior Member
#30
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#30
well, I think that's the whole problem...... How we understand what each other is saying. Of course Christianity is a religion... that's why i put it in inverted. However, when people say Christianity its not a religion they are actually referring to the practice of form (doing things just because they have to be done) without purpose and conviction. Its a matter of using the word in context of the conversation.

You see its the same when you say liberal christian....Maybe you mean something we not understanding... and that's I'm trying to find out; its quite possible we agree. But when you use liberal christian it sounds like rebellion... Because that the context it is usually used in.... the simple fact is there are people who label themselves Christians are not. The bible talks about these persons..... and the bible advises us to be careful of the things people tell us....so when we introduce a concept, we are not out to get you, at least I'm not. I just need to be able to see how what you are suggesting lines up with Word.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#31
#31
jandian said:
You see its the same when you say liberal christian....Maybe you mean something we not understanding... and that's I'm trying to find out; its quite possible we agree.
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Then I recommend you read the posts where I describe in great detail what, exactly, I mean by the phrase "liberal Christian."

But when you use liberal christian it sounds like rebellion... Because that the context it is usually used in....
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Perhaps I don't know what you mean by "rebellion." Jesus tells us not to conform to this world, but to stand out against it. So yes, I am a rebel, and proud of it. I rebel against anything that does not line up with my faith in Jesus. And the "liberal" part of Christian should not be what is rebellious, but the "Christian" part. I am not a rebel because I am liberal, I am a rebel because I am a Christian.

the simple fact is there are people who label themselves Christians are not. The bible talks about these persons..... and the bible advises us to be careful of the things people tell us....
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Perhaps I should start another thread about this point, which is another pet peeve of mine when it comes to some Christians. It seems off the topic from this thread.

So, after you have read my post in this thread that explains what I mean by the phrase, please feel free to comment again.
 
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dmdave17

Guest
#32
#32
An example of the first might be homosexuality. Many liberal Christians believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that references to it in the New Testament are misinterpreted and misleading. Frequently (though not always) a liberal Christian will say that a homosexual man or lesbian who is in a loving, committed life-long relationship is not sinning by being with that person, while the conservative Christian will more likely say either that homosexuality is always a sin, or that being homosexual (having a preference for someone of one's own gender) may not be a sin but acting on that feeling is sin.
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A liberal Christian does not ignore Scripture. We interpret it differently, more often figuratively than literally, but we do not ignore it. And not always figuratively. In fact, sometimes the liberal Christian's interpretation is more literal while the conservative Christian's is more figurative.
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This, I believe, is a perfect example of the issue I have with liberal Christianity. Where is the room for interpretation in, "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."? (Leviticus 18:22) Or, "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."? (Leviticus 20:13)

Just using this example, I (personally) believe that too much "gray area" has crept into Christianity where it has interacted with Liberalism. God is not a "gray area" kind of God. In His view, something is wrong, or it is not. While he is loving and compassionate, and stands ready to forgive any sin, He remains altogether holy. He will not change His mind about sin just because "times have changed". When a person is saved, the assumption is that they are infused with a desire to please God; to become more Christlike in all aspects of their life. I cannot accept the fact that continuing to practice homosexual relations fits with this understanding.

This is not a personal attack on anyone who calls him or herself a Christian. I just wonder if they have really examined their commitment to all the principles set forth in Scripture.

God bless you all.
 
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Joshua175

Guest
#33
#33
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. (Not Liberal)


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#34
#34
dmdave17 said:
Where is the room for interpretation in, "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."? (Leviticus 18:22) Or, "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."? (Leviticus 20:13)
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First of all, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your thoughtful words, and that you are not condescending or judgmental.

As for the Leviticus verses you quoted above, I can answer your question by saying there is exactly the same room for interpretation as there are in these verses:

"Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 'You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."
Lev 11:4-8

"Now when you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted. It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and the next day; but what remains until the third day shall be burned with fire. So if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an offense; it will not be accepted."
Lev 19:5-7

"These are the statutes and the judgments which you shall carefully observe in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess as long as you live on the earth. You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess serve their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. You shall tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and burn their Asherim with fire, and you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods and obliterate their name from that place."
Deut 12:1-3

I'm sure you're familiar with the first one. Homosexuality is as sinful as eating bacon.

In the second, according to Scripture, if you leave an offering in an offering plate, and it is not used within 3 days, you need to be put to death.

And as for the last, allowing your enemies whom you have defeated to have any building standing in their lands ... guess everything we're doing in Iraq, trying to rebuild there, is abomination.

This was exactly my point. Christians are all to happy to point to Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, while they enjoy their bacon cheeseburger. That is pick-and-choose.
 
Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#35
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
18
#35
...So, when was the last time anyone here put a homosexual to death?


I think there's a bit of a difference between saying "homosexual behaviour is sinful" and "homosexuals should be stoned"...
 
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rodogg

Guest
#37
#37
TheGrungeDiva said:
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only liberal Christian on here. Are there others who are devoutly Christian and still accept evolution, support Obama, etc?

I know there are a lot of us in "the real world." According to several polls (pew, gallop, etc.), a majority of those who claim Jesus as their savior are liberal in their beliefs. I know some would say we aren't "real Christians," but I believe that having confessed Jesus makes me a Christian, no matter what anyone else says.

Why are there so few of us here in this forum?
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I'm not sure that you can be a real Christian and support Obama? Like...really?
 
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rodogg

Guest
#38
#38
And liberal Christian? Is that a THING? No... I shall now depart from this confusing thread :p
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#39
#39
TheGrungeDiva said:
First of all, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your thoughtful words, and that you are not condescending or judgmental.

As for the Leviticus verses you quoted above, I can answer your question by saying there is exactly the same room for interpretation as there are in these verses:

"Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 'You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."
Lev 11:4-8

"Now when you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted. It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and the next day; but what remains until the third day shall be burned with fire. So if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an offense; it will not be accepted."
Lev 19:5-7

"These are the statutes and the judgments which you shall carefully observe in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess as long as you live on the earth. You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess serve their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. You shall tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and burn their Asherim with fire, and you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods and obliterate their name from that place."
Deut 12:1-3

I'm sure you're familiar with the first one. Homosexuality is as sinful as eating bacon.

In the second, according to Scripture, if you leave an offering in an offering plate, and it is not used within 3 days, you need to be put to death.

And as for the last, allowing your enemies whom you have defeated to have any building standing in their lands ... guess everything we're doing in Iraq, trying to rebuild there, is abomination.

This was exactly my point. Christians are all to happy to point to Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, while they enjoy their bacon cheeseburger. That is pick-and-choose.
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So all or nothing, huh?

And you're in the nothing camp?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#40
#40
rodogg said:
I'm not sure that you can be a real Christian and support Obama? Like...really?
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I'm not sure you can be a real Christian and support any Republican. And I'm quite sure you cannot be a real Christian if you support many of the Republican party platforms.

As I said, I don't agree with everything Obama does and says, but he is certainly more in line with Christianity than any of the alternatives on the right, so far.
 
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