From "Born again Christian" to Atheist!

I trust in science.
Even if there were a God, and it happens to be the Judeo-Christian one, have no interest in worshipping such a blood thirsty egomaniac.

As far as how all this got here, read some science. Science doesn't claim to know every answer, but we're very confident with our explanations for every part of existence until we get all the way back to the first few nanoseconds after the Big Bang. Before that, we don't know YET.
The more advanced we become scientifically, and the more the years tick forward, the farther we'll be able to look in the past. This is a great time to be alive for this era of science that we're living in now. We're learning at faster and faster rates of acceleration.
And yes, when my life ends, then, it ends. I believe that's it! The end. However, don't you see, that the fact that we have a very limited lifespan is what makes it so incredibly beautiful and precious!
That's why I don't want to hold back. It sounds a bit cliche to say this, but I want to live every minute as if its my last. That's harder to do some days more than others, but it's a great

...way to approach each day.
Thanks for your earlier reply!

And now you show your true colours. Why are you even bothering to reason? Within your worldview (religion), there's no paradigm from which to reason, it doesn't allow for it. But the Judeo-Christian worldview does, it's the only one that does. So you're borrowing/stealing from the Judeo-Christian worldview to discredit the Judeo-Christian worldview. How typical. Stop worshipping science. Don't you know your high priests (evolutionist scientists) are lying to you about origins?

This will sound rude, but it's true, nonetheless. Again, I debated hardcore atheists for 10 years who all thought themselves to be "scientists". I can honestly say, no matter how rude it sounds, that I've never encountered a bigger bunch of gullible idiots in my entire life. Their "science" never held up to scrutiny and when they were showed the same time and time again, they just moved on to their next alleged "scientific" claim which, ironically, was nothing more than their own "religious beliefs". It's almost funny to hear you attacking the Bible when you know nothing about either it or God and in that you've now replaced it with another "bible" (Skeptic's Annotated) and also in that your beloved "science so-called" has been immensely wrong so many times that people like you ought to be hiding in caves somewhere from shame as opposed to shooting your mouths off. You're headed down a road to destruction, friend, and pride is at the root of it. You'd be wise to fall on your knees and to cry out to God to show you just how abysmally wrong you currently are.

awww u guys might have more in common than u think. @frmrChristian no one can deny science - Noone here would in honesty attempt to - we turn on our TV, we type on our computer, talk on the internet and use satellites - All that is science and is undeniable. I hope in time that the divide between Christian faith and scientific developments will close. A starting point is the beginnings of the universe - the very first verse of the bible. You will argue it starts with a point of singularity and then rapid expansion - AKA Big Bang - AKA genesis chap1 one...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. [SUP] [/SUP]And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

so Ok guys maybe chill coz possibly theres not such a big divide... because where did the point of singularity come from to begin both space and time - so far science argues theories based on a universal energy derived from string theory - Christians argue Dude that's GOD.

@Jesusisthe Christ - please peace in your beliefs. There are many here - and I am one - who have great appreciation for our scientists and the way they have advanced all our lives. Don't be too quick to say - well I accept all the science that helps me with my current life - but not this. I believe in time the faith you have in Jesus and God will not be at odds with knowledge that builds and shapes our understanding of the universe.

This is my respectful way of saying - please - appreciate each others points n leave room in your hearts to learn new things that may close divide between Christianity and science.

And yet you've ignored my arguments. Why is that? If they're as "weak" as you claim, then show the same.

They're not intelligent at all. They're fools and you've shown yourself to be the same even in this response and I'll document how in just a moment.

Let's see. Speaking of reality:

First of all, I have no idea whatsoever what your "19:8" alleged quote is all about because there is no 2 Peter 19:8. As far as 2 Peter 2:7-8 is concerned, have you ever actually read it? Here's what it says:

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)." (II Peter 2:7-8)

Lot was called "just" and "righteous" BECAUSE HE WAS VEXED WITH THE FILTHY CONVERSATION (an old English word which means "behavior") OF THE WICKED OR BECAUSE HIS RIGHTEOUS SOUL WAS VEXED DAILY AS HE SAW AND HEARD THEIR UNLAWFUL DEEDS. What does any of this have to do with Lot's decision concerning his daughters? Was he called "just" or "righteous" in relation to the same? No, he wasn't and that's REALITY. Go back and read the account. Did God or the angels whom He sent allow Lot's daughters to be touched? No, they didn't. Just because the Bible accurately records something that somebody did or attempted to do, this doesn't mean that the Bible is sanctioning the same. I've got two daughters of my own. Get a bunch of your friends together and come knocking on my door and try to touch either one of them. You'd better have good health insurance if you do.

Again, have you read the account?

"And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." (II Samuel 12:1-14)

Who sent the prophet Nathan to David TO REBUKE HIM FOR DESPISING THE COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD AND FOR DOING EVIL IN HIS SIGHT?

God did.

How "immoral" of Him, right?

David paid tremendously for his sin. The sword never departed from his house, he lost three sons, his daughter was raped and his wives were lain with in the exact manner of which the LORD foretold.

How could God call David "a man after My Own heart"?

Well, try reading Psalm 51 which was penned by David after this whole ordeal:

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar." (Psalm 51:1-19)

David lamented terribly for his sin which he had committed, a sin which was first and foremost against God, and he not only cried out for mercy, but he also cried out that God would create in him a clean heart and renew a right spirit within him. In this sense, he most certainly was "a man after God's heart".

All that you've documented thus far, ironically, is your own need to actually read the Bible. As it presently stands, you're just a gullible follower of another "bible" (Skeptic's Annotated). How's that for reality?

I have no problem with "science" whatsoever. In its simplest form, "science" means "knowledge". What I do have a major beef with, however, is what the Bible calls "oppositions of science falsely so called" (I Timothy 6:20)

Zoii, there's a huge difference between operational science and origins science. Biblical creationists don't debate that operational science contrasts with the Christian faith, but origins science is certainly counter to the Christian faith. You can't wed together a theory of naturalism (that is evolution), a theory was 'created' to remove God from the picture, with the very real revelation of God, as found in His Word, the Bible, that God created the world and everything it. Not only that, He sustains Creation. It's just not cricket.

Here's what it all boils down to:

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." (John 1:10)

The world, at large, hates its own Creator and wants Him dead. During Christ's incarnation, they ever sought to kill Him. After His resurrection from the dead and ascension back to the Father, they still seek to kill Him via their so-called "science" by somehow explaining Him away. There's going to be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth come judgment day. Thankfully, people like our OP still have time to repent and God commands them to do the same because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man Whom He has appointed and that man is Jesus Christ. Every knee shall bow. Resistance truly is futile and those who labor to somehow kill God truly do labor in vain.

God sent His Own Son to shed His blood that true egomaniacs like yourself might be saved/redeemed FROM YOUR SINS, friend. You'd be wise to avail yourself of God's gracious offer before it is too late.

Don't worry guys - I'm not stating a position on this but rather trying to reduce conflict and hoping that the two views will one day reconcile in some way.

Tin Tin don't worry I know your position and Im not trying to diminish that. One point I will pick up for you - just coz I know u n feel like teasing u a bit - Operational science n origin science have a bit in common - eg the clocks on satellites rely on the same science as origin science - ie Einsteins work on general and special relativity ... I'm saying this to you just so I seem like a smarty pants hahaha.

tc all
Zoii

It's just not cricket.
@ Tin Tin - PS you do love your cricket don't you

Haha! No, sister. I actually don't like sport. It's an Aussie saying.

If you believe in science this much, than you have to believe in mathematical probability.

Let's say for instance this bang theory.

mathematically speaking, if 0+0=0 but bang says, 0+0=1 (universe) which does not make sense right?

So say 1+1=2 (universe) then it would make sense.

But if have to ask yourself, who made that "1" in the first place, to even have a bang?

Down to the root, if the simplest atom exist to cause it, then someone has to place it there, else, that single atom cannot exist by itself, being too simple in form.

Oh no not at all - like I said I'm not stating a position - but to the point u raised. No big bang didn't start with nothing it started with singularity - the definition is an infinitely small but infinitely dense and infinitely hot point. And its not a point in space that occurred in time. The weird thing is that space and time existed in the singularity. When you get your head around it, it means that time and space began at that point. Nothing existed outside it.


Now for me this reinforces the existence of God - I don't find it at odds at all. Still guys I acknowledge the general view here you refute Einsteins work and Bing Bang.

so this dense and hot point, some atom or particle must have made it.

To the root, who placed that particle or atom to cause this dense point? Not saying you r right or I am wrong or vice versa, but sometimes, I think if we go back far enough to the beginning of time, you would think someone made it happen, whatever the cause, to make the universe.

I have to head out of state for several hours, but I'll quickly address one more of your objections before I leave:

Far from displaying God's alleged immorality, you've only managed to further display your own ignorance and gullibility as we're about to see.

And how did He create it?

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

God made man upright and then he willfully chose to rebel. Why then are you vilifying God as if He's the sinner? Who truly is the immoral one? God or willfully sinful man? You've got everything backwards, friend.

Which is it? You begin by speaking of God's omniscience and foreknowledge and then you speak of God's alleged "second thought" which allegedly came "after a while". You can't even agree with yourself, can you? Is it any wonder then that you're presently at odds with God? Jesus was foreordained to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:17-21), friend, and He's your only true chance at a "do over" or the only means by which you can be "born again".

Typical willful ignorance. How is it that you allude to Genesis while omitting key elements of the account from Genesis and how is it that you've previously cited from 2 Peter while conveniently ignoring portions of that as well? For example:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)

God had not only been striving with sinful men all along by His Spirit, but He continued to do so for another 120 years before eventually wiping them out because they refused to repent. Who then was "immoral" in the flood account? God or willfully sinful men who continually resisted the strivings of God Who wanted them to repent and to be saved?

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (II Peter 2:5)

You quoted II Peter 2:7-8 in another post, even though you don't know what it means or what it actually says, so how is it that you missed this verse which precedes it? Noah was A PREACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yes, Noah preached to the people that they might be saved and God strove with them by His Spirit AND THE PEOPLE REFUSED TO REPENT AND TO BE SAVED AND THEY CHOSE TO REMAIN UNGODLY INSTEAD. In your *AHEM* "scientific mind", this means that God was immoral and not man. Seriously, just be quiet. Most of us have had more than our fill of your brand of "science" (knowledge). Unlike you, we call it what it really is:

WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

If you're going to come on here and criticize both God and the Bible, then you'd better learn what He and it actually said/says first. Some of us know God and we have read the whole Bible and we don't base our beliefs upon the cherry-picked, out of context, verses from your sacred "Skeptic's Annotated Bible" like you do.

Exactly Cetien - you get my point - This is why I see that big bang does meld with a belief in God - Just as you say - where did this singularity come from - I feel it supports Christianity - I've never thought of it as being at odds

sigh...guys - your getting angry with each other and its not a debate anymore - plz...try to express your points to arrive at an understanding of each other even if its not one you can agree on. But at least respect one another - please :\

I don't believe for a second you were ever truly a Christian. That being said, I'd like to address this "Bible endorses slavery" mantra that is brought up regularly by unbelievers and struggling believers alike.

The Bible does not "endorse" slavery. Like so many of the acts humanity engages in the Bible deals with the reality that slavery existed and exists. Similarly, the Israelites demanded they have a King like the pagan nations around them. God did not want them to have a King, but since they whined and cried to have one God SET OUT RULES they needed to adhere to if they insisted on having one.
So the Bible deals with the REALITY that man enslaves his fellow man.

On the issue of God knowing Satan and mankind would fall, it boils down to free will. Sure God could have made humans to be programmed robots who would never disobey, BUT a robot can't be free to give love, adoration, and praise.

What is your purpose here? Surely you know that true believers can't be swayed by men or dark forces. Are you here to dissuade honest skeptics? Maybe, hopefully, your here to desperately convince yourself that YOUR conclusions are wrong.

I pray in Jesus name, it's the latter.