The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

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Niki7

Niki7

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Feb 21, 2023
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#481
Genez said:
There is always something behind why we see such awkward reasoning.

Here is a possible reason way some have been told to believe God chooses to save us, and we do not have a say in the matter.

Satan would want all to believe that he had no choice but to reject God.
(TULIP fell into his trap of scanted reasoning....)

Its Satan's rationalization. Its designed to get the angels of God to stop looking down upon the fallen angels...

Man has been given that rationalized reasoning thrown into the court to be played out to destroy Satan's excuse
for not accepting responsibility for his desire to be contrary and evil towards God.

It also explains why we find some humans who find being contrary to what is considered right a pleasure for them...

Everything that seems wrong serves a purpose in God's plan.

It also makes those who are being guided into all truth, who find the pressures they receive in this life, to be a good thing having divine purpose that God uses in His purpose of making all His enemies into His footstool.



Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you,
searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances
to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the
Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving
themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who
have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look
into these things." 1 Peter 1:10-12

.......
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That is so. The op question about the belief that some are 'elected', no choice in salvation, and others get to choose, results in
a split in which an awkward kind of reconciliation has been made due to not understanding the bigger picture

Thanks
 
Niki7

Niki7

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Thunderrr-mental said:
well like I said God said every life has a living stone
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Only God never said that at all. So why do you?

The Bee Gees are all dead except for one. Jesus is alive and those of us in Christ are alive in Him.

Only those in Christ are 'living stones'

I hesitate to even ask you if you know what that term means as a barrage of unrelated scritpures might be the response
 
Niki7

Niki7

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#483
Genez said:
That's very nice....ok...

Now let others expound without you jumping in front of them.
Attention seeking is not a virtue.
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he had another profile in which he called himself a prophet and if you think this thread is populated with alot of his nonsense, you should have seen those threads

he refuses to stop
 
selahsays

selahsays

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Thunderrr-mental said:
Well where it goes wrong is that people don't realize that the life that lives in everyone is Livingstone its life from his life Jesus, it was first created by Jesus in Adam in heaven, it's the same life in everyone it's the living stone it's a jewel created in heaven in Adam, that is the precious stone of all life, and it the living stone of Jesus 😊

Using my God-given imagination I would say that the living stone is unique to everyone because God created the earthly body to inscribe his Livingstone with a unique identity from the earthly vessel designed to change identity

So yes all life did pre-exist before the fall about them if you can see it that way although I do have a very hard time convincing people nevertheless.

But never the less, nice attempt to say someone is being blindly led I'm sure that was your intension
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I wish people would just study their Bibles. They don’t even recognize truth when they read it. They read scripture, but they don’t understand any of it. And in their insecurity, they get mean and falsely accuse those who are trying to simply discuss in an iron-sharpening-iron way. They lash out because they have no ears to hear.

Oh well, what are you gonna do? Niki and 2nd aren’t able to debate nicely in a Christian fashion. Perhaps, well, I better not say. …
 
selahsays

selahsays

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Niki7 said:
That is so. The op question about the belief that some are 'elected', no choice in salvation, and others get to choose, results in
a split in which an awkward kind of reconciliation has been made due to not understanding the bigger picture

Thanks
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What does the Bible say? You hardly post any scripture. Why is that?
 
D3vot3d

D3vot3d

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Mar 23, 2024
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Now quitting watching this thread, sorry Nikki. It has dissolved into something I see you tried to avoid.
Discussion is impossible with a closed minded person or worse one who is set with blinders on and refuses to hear others.

Can God help the willfully blind, deaf and dumb ?
 
selahsays

selahsays

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Niki7 said:
he had another profile in which he called himself a prophet and if you think this thread is populated with alot of his nonsense, you should have seen those threads

he refuses to stop
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Gossiping again?
 
selahsays

selahsays

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
No. It SHOULD be out in the open if it is disruptive or false teaching.

We talk so much about Bible topics on this forum, but we never talk about how to apply what it says to ourselves. I'm going to post an article about dealing with false teachers so that we can better protect ourselves from what they teach:

💗🌺🕊️🌺💗​


Pastor John, here’s a question from Caden in Boca Raton, Florida. “Hello, Pastor John! After seeing the documentary American Gospel, I was conflicted because I’m not sure if I am supposed to call out false teachers. Second Peter 2:1–3 makes it obvious that there will be false teachers, but the text also does not say we should point them out. I have heard both sides to this argument, but I’m still not sure. I want to be careful to not ‘pronounce judgment before the time’ (1 Corinthians 4:5). Does this passage apply here in this situation? Are we taking a judgment that isn’t ours? Or should we rest in God’s ultimate knowledge? And if a prominent false teacher is to be called out, who does this — where and how?”

Maybe it would be helpful to step back first and get the bigger picture of the New Testament response to those who live and teach in ways that lead others into error and ruin, and then zero in on 1 Corinthians 4:5 for some guidelines for how we should speak and write about such people.

Beware the Wolves

So let’s begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They’re clothing themselves with lamb’s wool while they’re wolves.

And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28–29 when he said, “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.”
“In order to protect the flock, we should expose false teachers and minimize the spread of the gangrene.”​
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: “Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.” And then verse 18: “For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.” Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, “Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.”

Avoid, Rebuke, Call Out

To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can’t avoid somebody if you don’t know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in 1 Corinthians 5:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14; 2 Timothy 3:5; 2 John 10. In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people — and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.

And then in 1 Timothy 5:19–20, Paul went beyond just “avoid them” to “rebuke them publicly.” So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin” — and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction — “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear..”

And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
  • “Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me” (2 Timothy 4:10).
  • “You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes” (2 Timothy 1:15).
  • “By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander” (1 Timothy 1:19–20).
  • “Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus” (2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.

So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us — especially shepherds, pastors — should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).

Expose Evil

Now, in 1 Corinthians 4:5, Paul is talking about how the Corinthians should assess Paul and Cephas and Apollos, because the people are choosing sides and boasting in their favorite teacher. He says,
I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one [Paul, Cephas, Apollos] will receive his commendation from God. (1 Corinthians 4:4–5)​
“The best protection against the darkness of error is the light of truth.”​
​
[Article to be continued in next post....]​


🍤
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Are you a false teacher?
 
Niki7

Niki7

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D3vot3d said:
Now quitting watching this thread, sorry Nikki. It has dissolved into something I see you tried to avoid.
Discussion is impossible with a closed minded person or worse one who is set with blinders on and refuses to hear others.

Can God help the willfully blind, deaf and dumb ?
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The posts between 3 people are deliberate with the intent to derail, mock and try to get the thread either closed or so far off the rails that people give up.

Certain people are just best put on ignore, as someone already stated, then discussion between those who actually are desiring to do so, can continue without the constant buzz of detractors and mockers

yeah I did try to avoid what they did but they are responsible for what they do...so the admin has thankfully placed an ignore buttom which can be put to good use :giggle:
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

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Dec 18, 2023
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selahsays said:
Gossiping again?
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Yes I know, it's called getting you to react so they can dig there claws in, what I've said all along is every Christian is a prophet because the spirit speaks to them all 😊

But the difference is between the prophet of the old, is Christians are permanent prophets

It's not difficult to comprehend really

In the old t prophets only spoke a message from God as they where moved outwardly by the holy spirit.

But nowadays Christians are moved permanently and inwardly 😊

There was different roles for different prophets too.

But most importantly as they stopped speaking for God the only prophet that was left was the lord.

You alo have to remember Jesus warned just as those who cast darkness on to people persecuted the prophets they will also persecute you when your not a prophet or speaking for God.

meaning it's quite simply really you speaking to God, you get a message.

At that moment your a prophet.

Then afterwards you give the message and your no longer a prophet,

It's beyond me why theese people think prophets are above and beyond.

Time for a coffee ☕☕☕




 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Niki7 said:
Only God never said that at all. So why do you?

The Bee Gees are all dead except for one. Jesus is alive and those of us in Christ are alive in Him.

Only those in Christ are 'living stones'

I hesitate to even ask you if you know what that term means as a barrage of unrelated scritpures might be the response
Click to expand...
He is a universalist who thinks everyone will go to heaven. So good luck
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
Jesus doesn't call people to make a choice. He calls them to come to Him. You may see this as a distinction without a difference, but the call is to believe. And the reason for this is because what we believe governs all our actions, including our choices.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.
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How is coming to believe not making a choice? God said He set life and death before us. Choose Life.

I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing
and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, Deuteronomy 30:19.
All life is in His Son. We attain to life more abundant by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Thunderrr-mental said:
I find your responses as dull as a blunt pencil

Pointless View attachment 263423

I also see you fit in well with the gossips, all your lacking is an apron and some make up 😋
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Was I wrong in what i said?

I could really care less what you think about anything I say to be honest.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
How is coming to believe not making a choice? God said He set life and death before us. Choose Life.

I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing
and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, Deuteronomy 30:19.
All life is in His Son. We attain to life more abundant by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood.
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Do you make a choice to believe something or is it you that you believe or do not believe? When new information is given to you, do you make a conscious choice to believe it or not or do you simply believe it or not? It is the nature of belief, and faith, to either possess it or not.
Out of belief come our choices.
In your example, which people chose life? Which chose death? Obviously, that is determined by what each believed.
Our belief can be altered by new information. This is why God employs the gospel in salvation. It is His deliberate attempt to alter previously held belief, and that by doing so, He will influence their choices. When God gives ears that hear and eyes that perceive, information is received in a new manner. It literally changes an individual's understanding,and thus, their belief. Faith is the new understanding about the individual's actual estate before God. And it changes the individual's choices. Acts 2:37 is an actual example of this in real life. They heard for the first time...they were given understanding. This, coupled with the circumcision of their hearts, is what led to a different response or choice on their part. Had this occurred to everyone who listened to Peter's words that day, everyone there would have likewise responded.
The estate of fallen man has left him with enough of his faculties to be guilty before God, but has rendered him helpless to do anything about it. If God does not come to an individual and rescue them from position, they will die in their sins. So while men do make choices, those choices are always subject to what they actually believe.
 
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