A Generalized Question

[Angela53510]

You are ignoring the fact that Greek manuscripts differ and either none of them are correct or only one of them is correct. If you believe none of them are correct and they all must be compared to arrive at whatever you think it closest to the original, then you are making yourself more authoritative than the written Word of God because you are denying that the Word of God is written and given to us without error.

Sources please! You are just mouthing platitudes.

"The New Testament is constantly under attack, and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. If the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.1 If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity."

"As you can see, there are thousands more New Testament Greek manuscripts than any other ancient writing. The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. That is an amazing accuracy. In addition, there are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages. The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000.
Almost all biblical scholars agree that the New Testament documents were all written before the close of the First Century. If Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30., then that means the entire New Testament was completed within 70 years. This is important because it means there were plenty of people around when the New Testament documents were penned--people who could have contested the writings. In other words, those who wrote the documents knew that if they were inaccurate, plenty of people would have pointed it out. But, we have absolutely no ancient documents contemporary with the First Century that contest the New Testament texts.
Furthermore, another important aspect of this discussion is the fact that we have a fragment of the gospel of John that dates back to around 29 years from the original writing (John Rylands Papyri A.D. 125). This is extremely close to the original writing date. This is simply unheard of in any other ancient writing, and it demonstrates that the Gospel of John is a First Century document."

https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

Besides, if all the original manuscripts are different, then we are all in BIG trouble. God preserved his Word, in the Greek for the New Testament, and through the Masorites, in Hebrew, and through the Septuagint the Old Testament in Greek.

Not a big believer in inerrancy, but certainly in inspiration. God has inspired the Bible, it teaches us the truth, and points us to Jesus.

 

[dcontroversal]

Again you deny tht you augmented what you said by adding words that were not in your original statment and to imply, say or assume one is carnal or immature for using the languages is ignorant DAVE.....God gave the Word in two languages that are more expressive than the English will ever be and to BRAG and BOAST about how many times you have read the bible and or what you have done in your life proves your own carnality....instead of boasting what YOU have done why not boast about what Jesus has done.........

And i still stand by what i said. Anyone who searches for the Truth via the Greek and Hebrew, do so in a carnal way. Those who seek the Truth via the Holy Spirit, do it in a Spiritual way. The latter is BETTER
i think you do not understand the word carnal.
Carnal thinking is any thinking that comes from the minds of men.
Spiritual thinking is any thinking that comes from the Spirit of Truth.
if i think that i need to go to the Hebrew and Greek, that is carnal.
if i feel compelled by God to learn the Hebrew and Greek, that is spiritual.
Anyone who seeks the Truth, via their own mind, their own thinking, it is carnal.

How can i explain it?

Bob Knows that Tim hates him and that he is the enemy. Tim one day needed help, and Bobs sees him in need of help. Bob thinks about the Bible verse that says "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" and "Be kind to your enemies" and "if your enemies need help, then help them" So Bob then proceeds to help Tim. This is carnal. It is good that he helped, it is good that he thought of the Bible, it is good that decided to help Tim because that is what the Bible instructs him to do. It is still CARNAL.

Bob Knows that Tim hates him and that he is the enemy. Tim one day needed help, and Bobs sees him in need of help.Bob immediately helps Tim, because even though Tim hates Bob, and Tim views Bob as the enemy. Bob loves Tim. Bob does not help Tim because the Bible says to, or instructs him to. Bob helps Tim, because it is in his heart to do so. That is SPIRITUAL.

A person can believe Jesus in a carnal way or a spiritual way. Believing is one of the steps to Salvation is it not? how can a person believe in Jesus a carnal way, you ask?

A person may read the Bible and believe what they are reading, the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, therefore He must have been if the Bible is True and is the Word of God. This is a carnal belief.
Those who believe Jesus in a spiritual way. KNOW that He is the Son of God, not because the Bible says He is, nor because that is what men have been teaching, They KNOW He is because the Spirit of Truth has revealed it to them. They just KNOW.
People who use to be Christians and are no longer Christian, had a carnal knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Carnal knowledge increases a persons own understanding, such as gleaning Truths from the Hebrew and Greek.
Spiritual knowledge changes a persons life, and understanding altogether..

^i^ Responding to Post #39

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

i hope nobody is thinking that i am condemning the study of Hebrew and Greek, i am not, i know first hand experience that when i was on milk, the study of Hebrew and Greek was good. But now that i am on meat, i realize that seeking the Truth via the study of Hebrew and Greek was actually hindering me. Because i was seeking the Truth on my own merit, through my own studies, through my own intelligence . i KNOW now there is a better way, and that is through the Holy Spirit of Truth. Hebrew and Greek and even the Bible itself, is but a middle man. Hebrew does not teach you Truth, Greek does not teach you Truth, and even the Bible does not teach you Truth, it is the HOLY SPIRIT that teaches you Truth, The Word of God is a means in which the Holy Spirit can teach you those Truths. And even though you can glean some Truths from the Hebrew and Greek, it is NOT a place to go to, to seek the Truth, in which the Holy Spirit of Truth can reveal to you through the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit cannot contradict the Word of God,

Very True, who has said otherwise?

and if you don't know for sure that you have the Word of God in your own language without error, and you don't know for sure that the originals were copied without error and preserved the Word Of God perfectly and you are not fluent in that language, then how do you know it's the Holy Spirit and not your own feelings or some other spirit giving you guidance?

In order for anyone to come to the Truth, or for the Holy Ghost to work in the capacity that it can work, they must first believe the Word of God is True. To believe in Jesus is to believe in the Word, for the Word and Jesus are same. IF you doubt the Word which God gave us, then you also doubt Jesus, because He is the Word.

Lets assume the Bible is in error. Which is BETTER in the eyes of God

Bill and Ted stand before God on Judgement Day.
Bill did not believe God's Word was True, he doubted some of the things said in it, he knew men wrote it, which could have been wrong in what they wrote, scientist were saying the Earth is Billions of Years old and that is a FACT, so the Genesis account can't be right either, doubts, confusion, and maybe guilt. And because of those things, Bill does not live by that Bible.
or
Ted who lives by it because it is the Word of God. and does not focus on what people say is not True in the Bible.

Which of the two pleases God more? Even if it is wrong, and not correct. it is Teds Faith that will save him, he believes it is the Word of God and therefore will live by it, regardless if it is wrong or not.

another example.

Tanya and Tina stand before God on Judgement Day.

Tina, spoke in Church, talked in Church, gossiped in Church. The verse that said women are not permitted to speak in Church was mad void, because she was told by others that it no longer applies today, that what was said was to the women back in those days.
or
Tanya, who did not speak in church at all, because she wanted to live by the Word of God that plainly taught that women should not speak in Church, and wrong or right, she obeyed it because the Word of God did not teach it ended at some point.

What about another example.

Bob and Tom

Bob knew the LAW said that the speed limit is 55, but he thought that was not correct, that this particular road it should be 75, or Bob thinks it is OK to drive 65 because cops won't give you a ticket, and besides that every one else is driving that speed.
or
Tom who drives the speed limit?
Which of the two, Bob or Tom is a LAW ABIDING citizen? And which is a LAW Breaker?

A person who believes the Word of God, because it is the Word of God, even if it is wrong, is far better off in the eyes of God than those who feel that His Word, is in error, or incorrect, or inaccurate, or no longer applies, or whatever else this generation can come up with as to not have to live by it. ALL Excuses.

^i^ Responding to Post#91

 

[KJV1611]

No offence, but this is a very ignorant statement and lacks the understanding of history....those who transliterated baptizo instead of translating the word has led to many who believe sprinkling is ok or correct.....this is just one example of many...and to add I will say that someone who worships a version of the bible instead of the God of the version would ultimately come to the conclusion that you came to!

WOW!

No offence taken brother. Ok, so what happens to me if I get sprinkled instead of dunked... am I not saved? What about the thief on the cross that never got baptized at all... did he go to hell?

 

[popeye]

There is a member of CC that states the following....

To study the bible from the orginal languages is CARNAL
They seem to indicate that God also INSPIRED the BIBLE in German, English etc.

How many people here believe it is wrong to use the Hebrew and the Greek to glean a better understanding of the word of God?

How many people believe that to use the Greek and Hebrew to better understand the words being used is carnal and cause one to follow men?

God inspired the bible as orginally written in Hebrew and Greek and to say it is carnal to use both to glean a better understanding of the word is foolish at best!

I use the txtus receptus,or receivd text all the time. Love it.
Hebrew interlinearr is online for all to use. I recommend this also.

No boggeyman in either.

 

[dcontroversal]

No offence taken brother. Ok, so what happens to me if I get sprinkled instead of dunked... am I not saved? What about the thief on the cross that never got baptized at all... did he go to hell?

Brother it is not about biblical slavation, but rather knowing and doing exactly what God desires for us to be right......Look, I use the King James...I have a rather lovely Cambridge, Berkshire, black letter edition.....but the truth is the truth....there are numerous words that have been transliterated that lose value by doing such...I can even think of verses where the same word is traslated the same and they are entirely different words with different meanings.....at the end of the day it comes down to knowing EXACTLY what is was said and meant by God and that IS WHY I look to the original languages.....for those who argue against this by claiming it is more spiritual to just pray and study the English version I say....1st John<---THE SPIRIT is (be verb) THE TRUTH......at the end of the day I want to know the exact thought expressed by the way it was given under inspiration....there are VERB tenses that cannot be translated into ENGLISH and just like in Hebrew....you find singular, dual (pairs) and plural which is THREE or more...the word LIFE in Genesis as applied unto Adam and God breathing into Adam the breath of LIFE...the word is PLURAL in Hebrew and indicates more than just LIFE as it means LIVES as in...
Intellectual lIFE
Spiritual LIFE
Physical LIFE

You do not get this from the English translation...that Is why I go to the Greek and the Hebrew.....another one to ponder is Daniel and the (writing on the wall) Notice the diffrence in the writing on the wall and his translation....He uses different words...why? Go to the languages and you will see why....it is the difference between a black and white TV from the 50's and a modern Flat Screen LCD...it opens up and reveals deeper truth that cannot be brought out by the English...no one will change my mind on this....and to say it is carnal to study from the Greek and or Hebrew is folly!

 

[Jeff_56]

No offence taken brother. Ok, so what happens to me if I get sprinkled instead of dunked... am I not saved? What about the thief on the cross that never got baptized at all... did he go to hell?

people , men, mankind, just don't get it.

is yahshua master, or not master ? lord? or not lord?

did the thief on the cross do everything yahshua told him to do while they were hanging out together ?

duh.... yes. i.e. he obeyed. trusting. faithfully.

p.s. the thief was quite possibly immersed some time before he ever got arrested. since everyone else who accepted yahshua as the messiah had been immersed, it would make simple true sense that the thief had also been immersed sometime in the past (note that the scripture says that those who were not immersed rejected yahshua as the messiah). so.....

but even if not, for those who are still dense, yahshua said they would be together (in a good way in paradise), so unless by hell you simply mean the grave, he didn't go to hell. if you mean the grave, then he did..... simple still.

again, is yahshua master, or not master ? since immersion in his name was a command, not a suggestion, go figure out
who is the lord and master of someone if they do and if they don't obey him....... try to find out before death, because after death, is judgment, and that is final.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The creation language was more likely than not in Hebrew and if it was good enough for ABBA Father it should be good enough for us to at least try to get an understanding of His language...

(The sentence is the opinion of the writer GandalfTheGrey and should not be quoted as the truth in any way shape or form... )

 

[p_rehbein]

people , men, mankind, just don't get it.

is yahshua master, or not master ? lord? or not lord?

did the thief on the cross do everything yahshua told him to do while they were hanging out together ?

duh.... yes. i.e. he obeyed. trusting. faithfully.

p.s. the thief was quite possibly immersed some time before he ever got arrested. since everyone else who accepted yahshua as the messiah had been immersed, it would make simple true sense that the thief had also been immersed sometime in the past (note that the scripture says that those who were not immersed rejected yahshua as the messiah). so.....

but even if not, for those who are still dense, yahshua said they would be together (in a good way in paradise), so unless by hell you simply mean the grave, he didn't go to hell. if you mean the grave, then he did..... simple still.

again, is yahshua master, or not master ? since immersion in his name was a command, not a suggestion, go figure out
who is the lord and master of someone if they do and if they don't obey him....... try to find out before death, because after death, is judgment, and that is final.

Wow! This is about as far out as I have ever read here.............goodness....... that's a looooonnnnnggggg way to go to support water baptism necessary for salvation.

 

[jb]

Deeper understanding and knowledge is always groovy.

I haven't seen the word "groovy" either written or spoken in quite a few years now, I think its such a lovely sounding word! lol

As regards the thread topic, well, I would say that the person who denies that knowing the original language in which the Scriptures were inspired and written giving a better understanding of their meaning is simply trying to cover up their ignorance and/or laziness in studying God's Word, as we mature in Christ I think this is what we should be aiming to do...

Yahweh Shalom

 

[pwrnJC]

IT was the beautiful timing of GOD that the annointed WORD of GOD was produced in the international languages of that day and time. It reached more people in a dark world. Who are we to tell someone else that it is CARNAL? Did the Holy Spirit inspire us for that cause? Does declaring certain languages as CARNAL help to heal or bring us closer as fellow CHRIST believers? I am sure that the same people who would say such nonsense also find fault with most everything else.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

[
Which seems very clearly to indicate that you believe the Greek PROVES Jesus is God BETTER than the English can. This is what my whole post in reply was about, Not about the cultist, or Arianism (JW's etc) and Sabellianism.

\[/QUOTE]

If you have to go to the Greek to find better proof that Jesus is God, I have to wonder if He lives in you.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

If you can't find enough proof in English that Jesus is God, by all means go back to the Greek and investigate, and when you realize Jesus is God, then you know He can save you from Hell and you can believe He will..... but don't trust anything except the Textus Receptus manuscripts. All other manuscripts were rejected by real born again believers untill they were pulled out of the trash can for modern translations so the editors of those translations could pretend to be scholars on a higher level than less educated people and now people fall into the same error thinking thier own intellect is the stadard for determiniing what God said in our language rather than accepting the proven translation of the Word of God into English in the King James Bible which was brought to us preserved and promoted by a long chain of martyr's blood.