Again, Faith Without Works

[NiceneCreed]

Your right. Faith without works IS DEAD. Thus as James so correctly stated. If we SAY we have faith. But have no works. How can we be saved? Our faith is dead. No faiht, no salvation. Even demons believe.

The sad part. is many want to go to the opposite end of the spectrum. And add works to faith TO BE SAVED. they are no more saved than the one who has no works. Because neither have faith in the work of Christ.

You are correct, but to clarify, James spoke specifically about works of faith, whereas Paul spoke against works of the law; not that Paul thought we should be disobedient to the law; rather, Paul knew the Law did not have the power to bring salvation. While James spoke about works of faith as "authentication" of one's faith, at no time did James also negate the redemptive power of Christ to mankind. Christ alone is sufficient for us to have grace, and as Ephesians 2:10 (NIV, 2011) states, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:1-5)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are correct, but to clarify, James spoke specifically about works of faith, whereas Paul spoke against works of the law; not that Paul thought we should be disobedient to the law; rather, Paul knew the Law did not have the power to bring salvation. While James spoke about works of faith as "authentication" of one's faith, at no time did James also negate the redemptive power of Christ to mankind. Christ alone is sufficient for us to have grace, and as Ephesians 2:10 (NIV, 2011) states, "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Am I missing something?

I think James and paul were speaking the exact same thing in different ways to different audiences.

1. Paul, to the legalist. We are saved by grace through faith, not works our works are a byproduct of being made a new creation (eph 2: 8-10

2. James, to the licentious. If you claim you have faith (the faith which paul spoke of in Eph 2: 8-9) But do not have works (the works Paul spoke of in eph 2: 10) your faith is dead (non existant) can your faith save you? No.

 

[josh123]

worse yet. They think (like the pharisees) they obey them. and probably (like the pharisees, do a good job on the outside (for all to see)), But like the pharisees. they can;t see they can not even do them like God commands.

and just like the pharisees when the truth came they could see it because they were too proud to accept it, gonna get them in trouble though.. and something they will regret forever if they don't fix it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and just like the pharisees when the truth came they could see it because they were too proud to accept it, gonna get them in trouble though.. and something they will regret forever if they don't fix it

And they HATE US, like they HATED CHRIST.. Like I always say, If Christ came today, and we did not knopw who he was, they would reject him.

 

[NiceneCreed]

I think James and paul were speaking the exact same thing in different ways to different audiences.

1. Paul, to the legalist. We are saved by grace through faith, not works our works are a byproduct of being made a new creation (eph 2: 8-10

2. James, to the licentious. If you claim you have faith (the faith which paul spoke of in Eph 2: 8-9) But do not have works (the works Paul spoke of in eph 2: 10) your faith is dead (non existant) can your faith save you? No.

They were both speaking about faith, yes. But look at the context in the different passages and focus instead on the meaning of the word "works;" here is where the confusion lies. When Paul was speaking of works, he was essentially stating that works of the law cannot save, because there were many Jews returning to Rome after the banishment of emperor Claudius had been lifted, only to find the church was comprised of predominantly Gentiles. The Jews were upset the Gentiles were not following the laws, but they themselves (the Jews) believed the law had redemptive properties. This is obviously the reason why Paul stated it is by faith alone we are saved.

By stark contrast, when James was referring to "works," he was not referring to works of he law; rather, he was referring to works of faith, as illustrated here by Paul, not James:

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:1-5)





So it is plain to see that because there is confusion about the semantic range of the word "works," people have also confused the true meaning of "faith." I think we are in agreement but have not fully discussed our views to their full potential. But we should agree on this one point: Context of any biblical passage is dictated by the semantic range of the words contained within that passage.


God Bless!

 

[josh123]

And they HATE US, like they HATED CHRIST.. Like I always say, If Christ came today, and we did not knopw who he was, they would reject him.

i would like to show you something, same thing happening today 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. [h=3]Luke 23:33[/h] There the most holy place they ( today it's in the church) ( the most holy people) crucified him( crucified him for telling the truth something against their doctrine) know what they are doing? the same exact thing again 6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[h=3]Hebrews 6:1-6 you see? condemning themselves from ever receiving the holy spirit [/h]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They were both speaking about faith, yes. But look at the context in the different passages and focus instead on the meaning of the word "works;" here is where the confusion lies. When Paul was speaking of works, he was essentially stating that works of the law cannot save, because there were many Jews returning to Rome after the banishment of emperor Claudius had been lifted, only to find the church was comprised of predominantly Gentiles. The Jews were upset the Gentiles were not following the laws, but they themselves (the Jews) believed the law had redemptive properties. This is obviously the reason why Paul stated it is by faith alone we are saved.

By stark contrast, when James was referring to "works," he was not referring to works of he law; rather, he was referring to works of faith, as illustrated here by Paul, not James:

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:1-5)





So it is plain to see that because there is confusion about the semantic range of the word "works," people have also confused the true meaning of "faith." I think we are in agreement but have not fully discussed our views to their full potential. But we should agree on this one point: Context of any biblical passage is dictated by the semantic range of the words contained within that passage.


God Bless!

Again, it goes to the two audiences.

Paul spoke to those adding works of law. He said they will not save us, But those saved WILL DO THEM (and as far as Jesus said more) because they are saved.

James speaks of hearers and not doers.. Doers of what? The commands of God,

You can;t say you have faith and be licentious.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Again, it goes to the two audiences.

Paul spoke to those adding works of law. He said they will not save us, But those saved WILL DO THEM (and as far as Jesus said more) because they are saved.

James speaks of hearers and not doers.. Doers of what? The commands of God,

You can;t say you have faith and be licentious.

I never said both Paul and James were speaking to the same audiences, and I am in agreement with you on this point. Yet, carefully look at the semantic range of the word "works." James is not saying that one is required to have "works of the law" to be saved; rather, he was stating that "works of faith," as illustrated by Abraham's faith in God, is authentication of whether or not one has truly received God's grace. Do we agree on my last point?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Again, it goes to the two audiences.

Paul spoke to those adding works of law. He said they will not save us, But those saved WILL DO THEM (and as far as Jesus said more) because they are saved.

James speaks of hearers and not doers.. Doers of what? The commands of God,

You can;t say you have faith and be licentious.

I should have added to my last post -- James was not saying works of the law were required for one to have salvation, but he was illustrating that if one had true faith, then works of faith would be reflected by such an individual who possessed a true faith in God . . . I know, that was a mouth-full.

I hope I am properly conveying what it is I am intending to say. I do believe we should be obedient to the law, but it is not the law itself which saves. However, if one has works of faith (different from works of the law), then perhaps one will be obedient to Mosaic ethical laws because of their faith in God. Yet, one should be careful not to think works of the law are required to maintain salvation; this is where a lot of people get confused.

Anyway, while many people I personally know -- when discussing this issue -- focus primarily on the word "faith" (God Bless their hearts), I think they should redirect their focus to the semantic range of the word "works" in this particular instance, as this word in particular dictates how one should interpret what both James and Paul meant when they used the term. Obviously both men used the term when speaking to different audiences, and their messages were different but complimentary of one-another at the same time. However, Paul was referring to "works of the law," whereas James was referring to "works of faith;" there is a difference.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Again, it goes to the two audiences.

Paul spoke to those adding works of law. He said they will not save us, But those saved WILL DO THEM (and as far as Jesus said more) because they are saved.

James speaks of hearers and not doers.. Doers of what? The commands of God,

You can;t say you have faith and be licentious.

Also, I wanted to thank you for being patient with me on this issue, as I shared my particular view of these passages with you. I think we both agree that Paul was referring to a legalistic audience when he used the term "works." I also believe James was speaking to an audience who had no works at all, when he was using the word "works." However, there is a difference in not only their audiences, but also in the semantic range of their use of the word "works." I will say one more time to ensure I clarify my position of the definitions of the word "works" as used by Paul and James. Paul was referring to "works of the law," but James was referring to "works of faith."

I think the parallel would be comparing father Abraham to the Pharisees. Abraham was obedient to God because of his faith, and it was credited to him as righteousness. By contrast, the Pharisees, even those who were law abiding, most likely lacked the same degree of faith as Abraham possessed.

Abraham's work was a work of faith, but the Pharisees works were works of the law. Do you see now the difference between the two? So the question is: Which one has true faith in Christ? The answer is Abraham.

And furthermore, if your carefully read Romans 4:1-5, Paul clearly states it was not by works of the law Abraham was credited righteousness, but by works of faith; Paul and James are saying the same thing.

 

[john832]

Just out of curiosity, who is this doing the speaking?

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

And then He proceeds to give the other nine Commandments.

Who is doing the talking, do you know?

looooooooooooool i'm sorry for the lol but this just made me laugh sorry. in order to anwser your question i will ask you another question who did god deliver out of egypt? was it the gentiles or the jews?

Hmmm, didn't think you would answer. Not sure if you don't know or don'e want to know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said both Paul and James were speaking to the same audiences, and I am in agreement with you on this point. Yet, carefully look at the semantic range of the word "works." James is not saying that one is required to have "works of the law" to be saved; rather, he was stating that "works of faith," as illustrated by Abraham's faith in God, is authentication of whether or not one has truly received God's grace. Do we agree on my last point?

James is not saying ANY WORKS are required. He is saying that those who claim to HAVE faith (not just mere belief) WILL DO WORKS.

Abraham was not saved by his work. His work PROVED his faith was real. True faith produces true works. If Abraham did not have true faith, he never would have done the work to begin with, This is what James is saying, He is trying to point out the licentious attitude in the church that mere belief is enough and we can go on living like we always have. even if we change it to a so called christian living (which he claims is not christian at all)

 

[JaumeJ]

Abraham had faith and his faith was imputed to him as works. He went on to the brink of offering up his son, his only son, having the faith Yahweh could and would bring his son back because he believed Yahweh would keep His covenant with him no matter what. That is faith and works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I should have added to my last post -- James was not saying works of the law were required for one to have salvation, but he was illustrating that if one had true faith, then works of faith would be reflected by such an individual who possessed a true faith in God . . . I know, that was a mouth-full.

I hope I am properly conveying what it is I am intending to say. I do believe we should be obedient to the law, but it is not the law itself which saves. However, if one has works of faith (different from works of the law), then perhaps one will be obedient to Mosaic ethical laws because of their faith in God. Yet, one should be careful not to think works of the law are required to maintain salvation; this is where a lot of people get confused.

Anyway, while many people I personally know -- when discussing this issue -- focus primarily on the word "faith" (God Bless their hearts), I think they should redirect their focus to the semantic range of the word "works" in this particular instance, as this word in particular dictates how one should interpret what both James and Paul meant when they used the term. Obviously both men used the term when speaking to different audiences, and their messages were different but complimentary of one-another at the same time. However, Paul was referring to "works of the law," whereas James was referring to "works of faith;" there is a difference.

I understand what your saying, and I am not saying you are claiming works to be saved.

I just do not see where your getting this in context.

the people of james did no work. work of law or anything else. They were not trying to do works of the law. they rejected all work unless it suited them or made them look good.

in other words. they did not repent, they were still all about self. not others.. true repentance causes us to be outward focused. not inwards. that is where the works of faith procedes from.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Also, I wanted to thank you for being patient with me on this issue, as I shared my particular view of these passages with you. I think we both agree that Paul was referring to a legalistic audience when he used the term "works." I also believe James was speaking to an audience who had no works at all, when he was using the word "works." However, there is a difference in not only their audiences, but also in the semantic range of their use of the word "works." I will say one more time to ensure I clarify my position of the definitions of the word "works" as used by Paul and James. Paul was referring to "works of the law," but James was referring to "works of faith."

I think the parallel would be comparing father Abraham to the Pharisees. Abraham was obedient to God because of his faith, and it was credited to him as righteousness. By contrast, the Pharisees, even those who were law abiding, most likely lacked the same degree of faith as Abraham possessed.

Abraham's work was a work of faith, but the Pharisees works were works of the law. Do you see now the difference between the two? So the question is: Which one has true faith in Christ? The answer is Abraham.

And furthermore, if your carefully read Romans 4:1-5, Paul clearly states it was not by works of the law Abraham was credited righteousness, but by works of faith; Paul and James are saying the same thing.

no problem bro.. we need to be patient.

now to let you know what I see between abraham and the pharisee.

abraham was all about God and others. because he experienced the love of God poured out on him and thus trusted God. which is why he worked.

The pharisees lacked repentance. they were all about self. the difference between the pharisees and those in james is the pharisees did religious works thinking it saved them, the people of james did selfish works thinking they were already saved..

so in Gods eyes. neither had TRUE works.

I also believe Paul spoke of any work whatsoever. Not just works of the law. As he said in titus. Not by works of RIGHTEOUSNESS (any good deed) we have done.....

 

[SarahM777]

Abraham had faith and his faith was imputed to him as works. He went on to the brink of offering up his son, his only son, having the faith Yahweh could and would bring his son back because he believed Yahweh would keep His covenant with him no matter what. That is faith and works.

Sorry Jamie,

But that is a direct contradiction of what scripture says.

Romans 4

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


His faith was not imputed as works but as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Not once does the Bible say it was imputed as works.

 

[JaumeJ]

Apostle in Hebrew is sheliach. The word means to be sent.

 

[JaumeJ]

YOu have the correct quote. Now here is an example of the meaning of righteousness along side of works.

Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Above is Paul's teaching in reference to Psalm 32 where righteousness is shown as being associated with works to some degree in that anyone living under the auspices of grace is imputed righteousness without having to work. Faith is works. Prayer is works. Preaching is works. Praise is works. Waiting for the return of Yeshua is works. None of which will save a soul, however those who are saved will do works because it is the new nature to do things to show our love, praise, faith, hope and gratitude to the Living God, Yahweh.

Sorry Jamie,

But that is a direct contradiction of what scripture says.

Romans 4

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


His faith was not imputed as works but as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Not once does the Bible say it was imputed as works.