Bakery closes after Christians refuse to bake gay wedding cake!

[Pearlie]

Hi Santuzza, forgive me but I do not know the American constitution. Are you saying that your country's constition excludes sexual orientation in its definition of discrimination. Our hard-fought for constitution in South Africa for example defines discrimination as: (2) No person shall be unfairly discriminated against, directly or indirectly, and, without derogating from the generality of this provision, on one or more of the following grounds in particular: race, gender, sex, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture or language. Note the reference to sexual orientation in the above. The 'customer' would have been able to take the matter to the Constitutional Court by way of redress.

Also, I am confused as to your analogy. In my mind, the wedding gig is exactly the same as the cocktail party because it is not about the actual event (the cake in the story) but about your beliefs as the artist (bakery owner)? Both events, the wedding and the cocktail party, are for the same people who espouse a way of life which you despise. So are you against gays or gay weddings?

 

[Brut]

Excerpt from from the article: Just last month, New Mexico’s Supreme Court ruled that two Christian photographers who declined to photograph a same-sex union violated the state’s Human Rights Act. One Justice said the photographers were “compelled by law to compromise the very religious beliefs that inspire their lives.”

It won't be long before the governments in the western world compel Bible believing churches to compromise their beliefs. Even then there will be 'Christians' who would be whining about "respecting the law of the land".

The word of our Lord is true: Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
John 15:18-21 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

 

[Agricola]

"...the state is willing to rehabilitate and reeducate Christian business owners like the Kleins." (from the article)

This is one of my favorite lines. Seriously? They need to be rehabilitated and reeducated? As though they are criminals, or sick, and stupid for standing their ground on what they believe?

Yes they need to be re-educated in buisness and trade laws. Like it or not, if you run a buisness you have to abide by the laws which state you can not refuse a service or custom based on race, gender, politics, disability, religion or sexual orientation.

They were clearly in breach of this law.

Imagine the uproar if they refused to serve someone because they were black.

Chritians are already portrayed as evil bigots and considered so by a number of people, so why re-inforce that by refusing to bake a lesbian couple a cake for thier wedding? What if they asked for a donught instead? would they be refused because they were lesbian? if not why not?

See how silly we are getting.

If I was the cake shop owner, I would have more than happily taken their custom. YEs I might think its disgusting and depraved and be totally against weddings, which I am, but I am not going to condemn or judge them for doing something the law allows them to, especially as it has no effect on myself.

Why stop at homosexuals. Would you refuse a cake to a customer who wants to celebrate a year of living in sin with a partner?

What about the local drug dealers and pimps? What about the Muslims and Budhists, refuse them trade too as they are following a false religion?

What I would have done was lovingly created the Lesbians thier cake, and wished them well for thier day, then put my bakers card in the box with a really nice bible verse on it. Maybe if they wanted a lot of input, engage tghem in discussion, tell them about being a Christian and what it means.

God still wants the homosexuals getting married for himself, its our job to bring them to Him. Spreading hate and condemnation is not going to do that.

 

[Daniel94]

The Chick-Fil-A analogy does not work because the cake was being asked for a special occasion which the bakers could not support because of their religious beliefs. Of course I can't be sure, but my guess is that the bakery would have been happy to serve these folks if they came in and just wanted to buy a few cookies.

Here's another way to understand it. I'm a professional singer. If a gay couple were to approach me and ask me to sing at their "wedding," I would refuse, citing my religious beliefs. However, if they came to me and asked me to sing at their cocktail party, I would agree -- just another gig. Because a wedding/marriage ceremony to me is sacred, I have the right to refuse based on my sacred beliefs.

Also, discrimination is not applicable here because homosexuality is a choice, where race and gender is not a choice.

The Chick-fil-A analogy does work. One is a Christian company willing to serve all while the other is a Christian company unwilling to serve all. No one was asking the couple to support the marriage. They were asked to bake a cake. It really is as simple as that. As I said in my first post people just want to play the victim and get their way. Which both sides in this case are doing that, but at some point someone has to be the bigger person. Why can't it be the Christians?

How would the wedding not be just another gig? If the cocktail party you were to sing at was a cocktail party for a group of lesbians then what would be the difference? Marriage in man's eyes is different from marriage in God's eyes. Christians hold to closely the idea of marriage in the sight of man. Man does not make a marriage blessed. God does.

If you want to say you can't discriminate against someone for something they choose then if someone denied you service because you were a Christian then you better not say it's discrimination. You can not be discriminated against if it's something you choose. You choose to be a Christian so your discrimination claim would not work by your logic. Oh wait, no it would be discrimination because of the law. You see how the law protects your choices, well it also protects the choices of others as well. Although, I don't believe homosexuality is a choice so please do not say that it is a choice unless you have personally dealt with it because I can assure you that I made no choice to like the same gender.

 

[SonInMe]

The bakery was targeted.

This is not discrimination unless its a religious freedom problem.

They did not sue because they would lose.

Would you expect an african american bakery to make a cake for a KKK celebration....and if a KKK'er went to an african american bakery, there would be many questions asked as to motivation...why not in the case of the christian baker and the gay couple?

Its hate filled agenda.

 

[allaboutlove]

I wouldnt have made the cake ether... i wouldnt not do bussiness with them because of there sexual orintation if they wanted to buy some cup cakes or cookeies or whatever id have sold it to them but i wouldnt have made a wedding cake for them because i have to agree thats comprimising your faith by helping someone with something you know is wrong... an they cou,d have easily gone to another bakery i would have even suggested one for them.

 

[MissCris]

Was there maybe a better way for the bakery owners to handle the situation? Probably. Sure, they could have just baked the cake, shared some scripture, and been done with it. That would maybe have saved their business, I don't know.

The thing that bothers me most about this story, and all the others like it, is that it's merely a symptom of the overall sickness of the world we live in now. If the situation were reversed, had it been a gay couple refusing to bake a cake for a Christian wedding, I honestly don't think anyone would have batted an eye- it would have been their "right" to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. It wouldn't have hit the news.

I'm not a fan of "what if" discussions, normally they're far-fetched and ridiculous, but I think this is valid- based off of other news stories, and the ones that don't get beyond local news. It's minority groups getting to do/say whatever they want to/about any other people they decide they hate, and then not getting equal punishment for it.

Are the people who have been threatening the bakery owners having any kind of legal action taken against them (that's an honest question, does anyone know)? If not, WHY not? It might have been "wrong" for the bakery to refuse to bake the cake, but then it's also wrong for people to be throwing around threats and harassing the couple, isn't it?

I don't know...it just seems to me like all this talk of being "equal" isn't the goal at all- people who cry out that they want equality actually want to have MORE rights than everyone else- the right to do exactly as they please, without repercussions- and they've pretty much got it, as far as I can tell. If it was simply about being treated the same as everyone else, the lesbian couple would have simply sued the bakery, not rounded up an angry mob. These self-proclaimed "victims" are bullies, and they bullied and victimized this couple right out of business.

It's all just sick.

 

[lil_christian]

Was there maybe a better way for the bakery owners to handle the situation? Probably. Sure, they could have just baked the cake, shared some scripture, and been done with it. That would maybe have saved their business, I don't know.

The thing that bothers me most about this story, and all the others like it, is that it's merely a symptom of the overall sickness of the world we live in now. If the situation were reversed, had it been a gay couple refusing to bake a cake for a Christian wedding, I honestly don't think anyone would have batted an eye- it would have been their "right" to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. It wouldn't have hit the news.

I'm not a fan of "what if" discussions, normally they're far-fetched and ridiculous, but I think this is valid- based off of other news stories, and the ones that don't get beyond local news. It's minority groups getting to do/say whatever they want to/about any other people they decide they hate, and then not getting equal punishment for it.

Are the people who have been threatening the bakery owners having any kind of legal action taken against them (that's an honest question, does anyone know)? If not, WHY not? It might have been "wrong" for the bakery to refuse to bake the cake, but then it's also wrong for people to be throwing around threats and harassing the couple, isn't it?

I don't know...it just seems to me like all this talk of being "equal" isn't the goal at all- people who cry out that they want equality actually want to have MORE rights than everyone else- the right to do exactly as they please, without repercussions- and they've pretty much got it, as far as I can tell. If it was simply about being treated the same as everyone else, the lesbian couple would have simply sued the bakery, not rounded up an angry mob. These self-proclaimed "victims" are bullies, and they bullied and victimized this couple right out of business.

It's all just sick.

And just to add on to this, I have a question. In doing what they did, are they letting themselves be victimized, because they said, "No, we won't do it, sorry." and so they're deciding to cry about it and the business ends up getting shut down, or are they trying to refuse to be victims in shutting the bakery down because they were refused service?

Either way it goes....it just feels SO wrong. If a place refuses to give someone service, I think everyone should have the common sense to just go somewhere else instead of making a big fuss about it. Yeah, they might be mad at them. B

ut the thing is, just like with Chick-Fil-A, if they knew beforehand they were Christian and knew where they stood, but were asked anyways, and when they gave the expected answer, there's suddenly accusations of hatred going towards them. But at the same time, aren't they the ones being hateful, boycotting and shutting places down, accusing them of hating gays, when all they did was say no, I don't support this?

Where has our common sense gone?

 

[SonInMe]

I don't think anyone should be desciminated against for any reason.

I am not sure this is discrimination.

I am absolutely sure it was planned to push an agenda.

Its not against anything christian to sell any product to a gay person.

I think its against christian principles to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple.

I think its against christian principle to have a baby shower for an unmarried woman.

I think its against christian principles allowing an unmarried couple to serve on a ministry in church.

I think its against christian principles to allow a practicing gay man to serve as pastor.

Where is the line drawn? The agenda here is, as always, against Christ.

If they have to lose their bakery to keep their relationship with Jesus going well, then lose the bakery. The situation only defines the world...and the principles of a devout commited christian bakery

 

[didymos]

didymos....

Santuzza... you're starting to repeat yourself. I however will not, so please just:

 

[Brut]

John 15:18-19 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[Agricola]

Hypothetical question.

You driving along a long highway in middle of nowhere, 30 miles to nearest house and the kind of road which only gets 1 car in a few hours.

You spot a car broken down with flat tyre and engine smoking, a young lady is standing next to it. You pull over and ask if she needs help, she replies that she does as the car is dead and going no-where and she has been stuck there for 2 hours so can she have a lift back into town.

You agree , she then pulls a wedding dress from the boot of her car, you ask if she is getting married, she replies that its in a few hours time. Enquiring who the luck man is she informs you its not a man, but her girlfriend and they are lesbians.

Disgusted at this thought you turn to her and tell her that homosexual marriages are evil and against your belief and you can not now give her a lift as its against your belief and goes against God and by giving her a lift you will be aiding and abetting her disgusting perverted sin, something which you can do, you then accelerate off leaving her in a cloud of dust,

She stands in the road crying hoping that someone may come along soon, and hoping its not going to be a bigoted scum bag calling themselves a Christian.

 

[MissCris]

Hypothetical question.

You driving along a long highway in middle of nowhere, 30 miles to nearest house and the kind of road which only gets 1 car in a few hours.

You spot a car broken down with flat tyre and engine smoking, a young lady is standing next to it. You pull over and ask if she needs help, she replies that she does as the car is dead and going no-where and she has been stuck there for 2 hours so can she have a lift back into town.

You agree , she then pulls a wedding dress from the boot of her car, you ask if she is getting married, she replies that its in a few hours time. Enquiring who the luck man is she informs you its not a man, but her girlfriend and they are lesbians.

Disgusted at this thought you turn to her and tell her that homosexual marriages are evil and against your belief and you can not now give her a lift as its against your belief and goes against God and by giving her a lift you will be aiding and abetting her disgusting perverted sin, something which you can do, you then accelerate off leaving her in a cloud of dust,

She stands in the road crying hoping that someone may come along soon, and hoping its not going to be a bigoted scum bag calling themselves a Christian.

That's exactly the type of "what if" scenario that's completely unfair and far-fetched in rational discussions. Designed to elicit emotions or guilt from the people expressing a different opinion than yours- in short, manipulation.

Leaving somebody stranded like that is nowhere near the same as not baking a stinkin' cake for them. Leaving someone stranded- they could get hurt, robbed, killed, raped, lost, eaten by rabid hyenas, whatever. Not baking someone a cake- ....um...they might have to find a different bakery...

 

[allaboutlove]

Hypothetical question.

You driving along a long highway in middle of nowhere, 30 miles to nearest house and the kind of road which only gets 1 car in a few hours.

You spot a car broken down with flat tyre and engine smoking, a young lady is standing next to it. You pull over and ask if she needs help, she replies that she does as the car is dead and going no-where and she has been stuck there for 2 hours so can she have a lift back into town.

You agree , she then pulls a wedding dress from the boot of her car, you ask if she is getting married, she replies that its in a few hours time. Enquiring who the luck man is she informs you its not a man, but her girlfriend and they are lesbians.

Disgusted at this thought you turn to her and tell her that homosexual marriages are evil and against your belief and you can not now give her a lift as its against your belief and goes against God and by giving her a lift you will be aiding and abetting her disgusting perverted sin, something which you can do, you then accelerate off leaving her in a cloud of dust,

She stands in the road crying hoping that someone may come along soon, and hoping its not going to be a bigoted scum bag calling themselves a Christian.

I sgree with misscriss this scenerio is competly diffrent..

 

[Nautilus]

So if its okay they denied a gay couple a cake...would it be okay if they denied an interracial couple a cake?

Maybe the couple could have just gotten off their oh luck we are such perfect christians and just made the cake? Im glad they lost the bakery. There is o place in the world for discrimination regardless of your beliefs. Besides Im sick of christians like that couple that make everyone look closeminded and hateful.

 

[santuzza]

didymos, I repeated myself because you didn't seem to understand the point. I see now that you are not able to do so.

 

[MissCris]

So if its okay they denied a gay couple a cake...would it be okay if they denied an interracial couple a cake?

Maybe the couple could have just gotten off their oh luck we are such perfect christians and just made the cake? Im glad they lost the bakery. There is o place in the world for discrimination regardless of your beliefs. Besides Im sick of christians like that couple that make everyone look closeminded and hateful.

Does it say somewhere in the Bible that being part of an interracial couple is an abomination? I don't see how that really relates...the bakery owners denied service to the lesbian couple because Christianity teaches- straight out of the Bible- that homosexuality is wrong. I don't understand why it's closed-minded for people to actually practice Biblical values...?

 

[jimmydiggs]

And just to add on to this, I have a question. In doing what they did, are they letting themselves be victimized, because they said, "No, we won't do it, sorry." and so they're deciding to cry about it and the business ends up getting shut down, or are they trying to refuse to be victims in shutting the bakery down because they were refused service?

Either way it goes....it just feels SO wrong. If a place refuses to give someone service, I think everyone should have the common sense to just go somewhere else instead of making a big fuss about it. Yeah, they might be mad at them. B

ut the thing is, just like with Chick-Fil-A, if they knew beforehand they were Christian and knew where they stood, but were asked anyways, and when they gave the expected answer, there's suddenly accusations of hatred going towards them. But at the same time, aren't they the ones being hateful, boycotting and shutting places down, accusing them of hating gays, when all they did was say no, I don't support this?

Where has our common sense gone?

They intentionally go to these places for the purpose of causing problems.

 

[allaboutlove]

So if its okay they denied a gay couple a cake...would it be okay if the y denied an interracial couple a cake?

Maybe the couple could have just gotten off their oh luck we are such perfect christians and just made the cake? Im glad they lost the bakery. There is o place in the world for discrimination regardless of your beliefs. Besides Im sick of christians like that couple that make everyone look closeminded and hateful.

If they where hateful toward the couple then yes the christians would be in the wrong to but if they simply said im sorry but i cant bake you this cake thats bot hateful or closeminded thats simply standing up for your belifes.... an the thing is the lgbt communtity is always talking about equal rights an no discrimination which is fine an dandy but then they turn around an try an force there ways an belifs of others which is doing exactly what theyve been fighting against an tqll me how is that riyht? If they want people to be understanding of there belifs than they should do the same an they should have sumply said i understand an went to another bakery.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Hypothetical question.

You driving along a long highway in middle of nowhere, 30 miles to nearest house and the kind of road which only gets 1 car in a few hours.

You spot a car broken down with flat tyre and engine smoking, a young lady is standing next to it. You pull over and ask if she needs help, she replies that she does as the car is dead and going no-where and she has been stuck there for 2 hours so can she have a lift back into town.

You agree , she then pulls a wedding dress from the boot of her car, you ask if she is getting married, she replies that its in a few hours time. Enquiring who the luck man is she informs you its not a man, but her girlfriend and they are lesbians.

Disgusted at this thought you turn to her and tell her that homosexual marriages are evil and against your belief and you can not now give her a lift as its against your belief and goes against God and by giving her a lift you will be aiding and abetting her disgusting perverted sin, something which you can do, you then accelerate off leaving her in a cloud of dust,

She stands in the road crying hoping that someone may come along soon, and hoping its not going to be a bigoted scum bag calling themselves a Christian.

What if during the night you see a unicorn walking through town, near where you live. The town you live in is a town of leprechauns, but the leprechauns tolerate you because you're not a bigoted scum bag calling yourself a unicorn. The leprechauns, however, don't like the unicorns because the unicorns have one horn, and don't like red beards. So, the leprechauns naturally not favoring this intrusion into their neighborhood. One of the leprechauns decides to do something about the unicorn driving his hummer into town really loud, so the leprechaun calls one of the fairies down at the local police station. The fairy at the station sends an alert and dispatches all the fairy police from the leprechaun town to hunt for the unicorn. The fairies get the unicorn, put a saddle on it, and then Gandalf the White comes and rides the unicorn out of town away from the leprechauns and the bigoted popo fairies.

How would you clean up the rainbow unicorn apples, that the unicorn left behind?

I'm all for hypotheticals when they're used to test consistancy of logic, but yours I think could go on a Bill and Ted movie.

To answer yours though. You do as Jesus said, and be the Good Samaritan. Baking a cake is not a Samaritan issue.