Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Alter2Ego · Nov 24, 2012

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
The above is part of what you said at Post 2 on Page 1 of this thread. It's taken from paragraph 4 of your post.

Sheol and Hades are synonyms. They both mean the same thing—namely "the grave." Even the common English dictionary confirms this.

DEFINITION OF "HELL":
"The abode of the dead, identified with the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades; the underworld."
hell - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

BTW: If you are going to insist "Sheol, Hades, and the grave describe waiting places," be sure and provide scriptures that say this. I realize the above is what you've chosen to believe, but with all due respect, one's personal beliefs without documentary evidence to support it amounts to personal opinion. Any religious teaching that is not found in the Judeo-Christian Bible amounts to Traditions of Men.

Alter2Ego · Dec 22, 2012

kenisyes said:

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
The above is part of what you said at Post 2 on Page 1 of this thread. It's taken from paragraph 5 of your post.

1 Corinthians 15:22 makes reference to Adam's death and makes no mention of fire. The book of Revelation states at the first verse of the very first chapter that the entire book is being presented in symbolic language aka in signs. In other words, many of the expressions in Revelation have a deeper meaning than their face value. Whenever "fire" is used symbolically in the Bible, it's with reference to permanent destruction or cleansing.

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1 -- New World Translation)

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED IT by his angel unto his servant John:"(Revelation 1:1 -- King James Version)

kenisyes said:

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
According to the Bible and the English dictionary, the word "hell" is nothing more than mankind's common grave.

Enow · Dec 22, 2012

Alter2Ego said:

Jesus as the Son of Man had died. He has to be the Son of God if God expects to use Him as the only way to reconcile us back to God again through Jesus Christ. That is like saying God is reconciling the world to Himself, ( the Father) through Himself ( the Son).

God is the Saviour and yet Jesus Christ is named as the Saviour, thus Jesus is God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

But your question is to address scriptural support for the Triune God.

We see the plurality of the One God in creation:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

He did the same thing at Babylon.

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Now here is a key that He may help you understand: look at God's requirement for man in establishing a word which is the same as a true witness. It gives us insight on how God can judge unless He is the Triune God.

Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

If God so requires this from man to judge, what does that say about God as He is the judge? That He is the Triune God.

Look at how this requirement from man in establishing a word shows how the Triune God established a word in creation and in confusing the people at Babylon.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

How does God bear witness of Himself?

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true....36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me....

How did the Father borne witness?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So not only the Father had borne witness, but the Holy Spirit did too, and the fulfilling of all righteousness that Jesus was talking about was this prophesy below.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Here, the Son of God was speaking this prophesy of which was fulfilled at His water baptism when God the Father spoke from Heaven testifying of the Son as God & the Holy Spirit did too by alighting on Him.

John 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

So as God required from man, so does it speak to the character of the Triune God in how to give a true witness.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

May God help you to understand that Jesus being "before Him" is just His way of saying we can come to God the Father through Jesus Christ as we are reconciled to God through the Son, Jesus Christ, but they are One. So in that respect, no one is before God as they are One, but Jesus is serving as the Mediator between us and God in bringing us to God as well as serving as the only way to relate to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Proverbs 8:36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Mark 9:.....be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is said that worms will die and the fire will quench when there are no more corpses, but what happens in the resurrection of the unjust when they are no longer in that corruptible flesh as in the terrestriel flesh?

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

If this be true:

Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 Timothy 3:13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Then how will the unjust be in the resurrection? We see hardened criminals as unredeemable and deserved to be locked up forever, then for God to promise us that sin and death will be dealt with forever, then the dealers of sin has to be dealt with too. We would not welcome an unrepentant and hardened criminal in our home to spare him life imprisonment of suffering, otherwise we'd jeopardize the safety and well being of those in our house. So in no way will God allow eternal sinners that cannot die again, dwell within His House after all the trouble He went through in reconciling us back to Himself as God is good, and nothing outside of Him is good.

So I can see how in the resurrection of the unjust, there will be eternal torment. We cannot fathom it because we would see ourselves repenting, but we should recognize that not every criminal in prison will be reformed, and some desire to go back to prison once they are let out.

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Abraham's bosom, which was really Paradise, was in hell in all respect, but across the chasm from hell . After His resurrection, He led the captivity captive as Paradise is now located in Heaven.

In spite of preaching unto those in captivity, and we noted how Jesus said in His parable that those in hell can hear and talk to those in Abraham's bosom, yet hell is not emptied. Those in hell should have been able to hear His preaching, but only the graves of the OT saints were opened and not the whole world's. So what does that tell us about evil?

Proverbs 8:36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Weird, but as far as I can understand, those unrepentant evil sinners can burn for all eternity. That is not voiding God's love, but showing God's holiness and justice in dealing with sin & death as it shows God's love towards the redeemed.

In one sense: His judgment towards the damned as being eternal also reminds the redeemed of His promises that we will never sin nor be seperated from Him again.

Alter2Ego · Jan 22, 2013

Enow said:

ALTER2EGO -to- ENOW:
You are cherry picking words off the pages of the Bible and ignoring the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are connected to the verses you are cherry picking from).

The word "Savior" is not a name; it's a title that describes a function. Jehovah God is the ultimate savior of humanity but uses his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ, as the means through which mankind is reconciled and saved.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." (1 John 4:14 -- King James Version)

"In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14 -- New World Translation)

QUESTION #1 to ENOW: According to 1 John 4:14, who sent the Son, Jesus Christ, to be Savior?

QUESTION #2 to ENOW: According to the rules of hierarchy, the one sent is taking orders from the one doing the sending. The Bible says Jesus the Son was sent by Jehovah the Father, which automatically makes Jesus inferior to Jehovah. Or are you telling this forum Jehovah sent himself? YES or NO?

QUESTION #3 to ENOW: Look at the context to the verse you cherry picked, which I bolded in red. Jesus Christ himself use the possessive "my" in reference to his heavenly Father, showing a clear distinction between him and Jehovah who "gave them me." Are you telling this forum that God gave them to himself? YES or NO?

QUESTION #4 to ENOW: Again, look at the context to the verse you cherry picked, which I bolded in red. Jesus Christ himself made it clear that the Father is "greater than all." The word "all" includes Jesus Christ himself. Do you accept Jesus' words that Jehovah the Father is greater than Jesus the Son? YES or NO?

Alter2Ego · Apr 28, 2013

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

According to the trinity dogma, Almighty God Jehovah is split up into three persons who are combined into a single "Godhead". The scriptures do not support the religious doctrine that says the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is a triune god. Below is a verse of scripture that demonstrates this.

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool." (Psalms 110:1 -- King James Version)

"The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." (Psalms 110:1 -- New World Translation)

According to that scripture, Jehovah is literally talking to himself. During the conversation with himself, Jehovah puts himself on his own right hand and refers to the enemy of the son (Jesus) as "your" enemy (indicating the enemy is Jesus' enemy and not Jehovah's), rather than using the possessive "our enemy"

That verse of scripture alone makes it clear that Jehovah and Jesus Christ could not possibly be part of a 3-prong god.

jimmydiggs · Apr 28, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

Dude, talk about long time no see.

Actually, your verses backfired.

Notice, The LORD said unto my Lord... Who is "The Lord" and who is "my Lord"?

New World Translation? Come on, I don't quote the Quran to you. Are you that silly?

So, who then is "my Lord"?

So far you've not even addressed the issue of the Trinity.

The Trinity isn't "three prongs", do you even understand the Trinity?

jimmydiggs · Apr 28, 2013

If this is your conception of the trinity, you're reallllllllllllllllllllllllly off.

ANIOHEVTORAH · Apr 28, 2013

Alter2ego, you have scripture about the 'Son of God' but Yeshua also said "Before Abraham was I AM" which is a direct reference of being God right out of Exodus 3, when Moses said "Who shall I say sent me" And YAH said, tell them "I AM that I AM sent you"

ChristReconcilesAll · May 13, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

Only corrupt translations of scripture support the Trinity and hell fire.

I believe in Yahweh Elohim, the Father, the source of all (Genesis 1:1), the "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), and the goal of all (1 Corinthians 15:28). I believe in Yehshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten son of God, the word of God, and the image of God who died for the sins of the whole world, was roused from the dead by the Father, and sits at his right hand in heaven. I also believe in the holy spirit of God, the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, that inspired the authors of the scriptures, and lives in us believers. (Matthew 1:18; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 Corinthians 3:16) The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma" literally means "blow-effect," and by implication is the imperceptible intangible power of action, life, and intelligence. The "holy spirit" is not a mythical third "person" in a triune godhead, but it is the power of God. The Roman Empire established the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of political expediency long after the scriptures were already the doctrine of believers. Words were added to (1 John 5:7) in Latin manuscripts in an attempt to verify the Trinity, but that deception has been discredited by earlier Greek manuscripts which do not contain that adulterated verse. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures does it say that the Father is a "person" co-equal with his son and his holy spirit. The Trinity is simply the philosophy of man, and it dishonors the Father. The ancient Jews differed from the other nations by believing in one God. Despite the fact that Trinitarians claim they also do, the fact is that the Trinity originated from pagan polytheism. The Trinity does not represent the God of the Hebrews, and it should not represent the God of Christians.

"The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)

Hell is obviously not the lake of fire because the King James Version Revelation 20:14 says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

"Hell" is an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades," literally meaning "unseen," which refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" in common bibles. Those who support the corrupt translations say Christ was speaking figuratively of "Gehenna" as a place where unbelievers are tortured in fire forever after they die. "Gehenna" is actually the ravine of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" has propagated the myth of "hell fire."

Failing to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, the church changed scripture to deceive people with fear of torture in fire forever, but even the corrupt translations of scripture used by the church say all are reconciled through Christ.

So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

“Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36)

ChristReconcilesAll · May 13, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

I have no formal training in theology, and I don't claim to be an authority. Anything you see me post is simply my opinion from personal study unless it is quoted from scripture.

Only corrupt translations of scripture support the Trinity and hell fire.

I believe in Yahweh Elohim, the Father, the source of all (Genesis 1:1), "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), and the goal of all (1 Corinthians 15:28). I believe in Yehshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten son of God, the word of God, and the image of God who died for the sins of the whole world, was roused from the dead by the Father, and sits at his right hand in heaven. I also believe in the holy spirit of God, the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, that inspired the authors of the scriptures, and lives in us believers (Matthew 1:18; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 Corinthians 3:16). The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma" literally means "blow-effect," and by implication is the imperceptible intangible power of action, life, and intelligence. The "holy spirit" is not a mythical third "person" in a triune godhead, but it is the power of God. The Roman Empire established the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of political expediency long after the scriptures were already the doctrine of believers. Words were added to (1 John 5:7) in Latin manuscripts in an attempt to verify the Trinity, but that deception has been discredited by earlier Greek manuscripts which do not contain that adulterated verse. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures does it say that the Father is a "person" co-equal with his son and his holy spirit. The Trinity is simply the philosophy of man, and it dishonors the Father. The ancient Jews differed from the other nations by believing in one God. Despite the fact that Trinitarians claim they also do, the fact is that the Trinity originated from pagan polytheism. The Trinity does not represent the God of the Hebrews, and it should not represent the God of Christians.

"The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are inaccurate translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I've learned the Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)

Hell is obviously not the lake of fire because the King James Version (Revelation 20:14) says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

"Hell" is an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades," literally meaning "unseen," which refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. Those who support the corrupt translations say Christ was speaking figuratively of "Gehenna" as a place where unbelievers are tortured in fire forever after they die. "Gehenna" is actually the ravine of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" has propagated the myth of "hell fire."

Failing to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, the church changed scripture to deceive people with fear of torture in fire forever, but even the corrupt translations of scripture used by the church say all are reconciled through Christ.

So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

“Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36)

iamsoandso · May 13, 2013

there is the father in haven,,he cannot die and there is no proof he ever died.,,,,,,,,,now the oldest(firstborn son),,,after the death of his father inherits the his fathers estate(son of god,after the death of the father),,,,but again,the father of Christ has not nor shall he ever die.

then how so then that the son(Christ),will ever inherit his fathers house?,,,,now in the pagan religions the father does have the ability to die,,,but in the christian faith the father cannot die. spring forward now,,,,,,,,"inherit the kingdom of heaven",,,,how then can you inherit an household where the father cannot die?,,,,,,,"what so ever father giveth me cannot be plucked out of mine hand,,,,,",,,,,,,,,

now you may inherent all given to the son by the father,,,,,for he did of a truth die for your sake,,,"all that the father gave to the son you have",,,,all in his possession,the whole house,the whole possession,,the kingdom of god. for you see he did die at Calvary,and you were his very house,and you do possess it in his stead. he is the head,and you the body,,,the father gave it to him,and you inherited it from your lord and master,,,at the cross.

now whatsoever the father gave to the son,the son will give back to the father,,,,,as if the parable was was of Christ,,he will take the penny and invest it and when the father requires it of him he will render you to him as increase.

we stumble about it at different paces it seems,,,,,others as the tree,they live,they die they,fall, they turn to dust they sift down into the pebbles of sand in the earth. they all corrupt,they rust, the gravity calls them after death. it says "dribble down into my clutches,reduce yourself to the molecule,then the atom,,,slowly sinking into the fire,,,to the half life of the isotope,,,,,,,,"melted in the freaverent heat of the fire".

but there is the possession of the son,the possession given to him of the father. and this second death has no effect on you,you cannot be plucked out of my lord,the son of gods hand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i am in the midst of loving you,,,

Ciscokid · May 13, 2013

All Christian doctrine MUST be "profitable for doctrine" (2 Tim 3:16). Doctrine must agree with the scriptures, it MUST be UNDERSTANDBLE. Therefore I find it VERY hard to accept the Trinity doctrine, especially when no one can actually/scripturally explain the Trinity doctrine. Christians say they believe in ONE God--yet they believe God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are three SEPERATE persons. HELLO Do the math--1 God+1 God +1 God = 1 God?
Sorry but the math of the Trinity doctrine doesn't agree with the scriptures. Please spare me the trash about we must accept the Trinity by faith. Faith, without scriptural representation is useless. To many "Christians" accept doctrines without consulting the scriptures. Lets face it--the Trinity IS a traditional man made doctrine., that's why the definition is so insane.
The definition of the Trinity is completely insane, that is IF you believe SCRIPTURALLY that all doctrine must be profitable/ understandable. YES, "The trinity is a way developed(by man) to teach this fact in early Christianity. " The problem is--the Trinity is not a fact nor scriptural. Research church history, compare it with the scriptures. Tertullian was the first person in church history to speak of God as though he were three persons. YES, GraceBeUntoYou the Trinity doctrine is a traditional man made doctrine. Naturally, very few folks will actually SEARCH the scriptures to find the truth--because we all know how PEER pressure work. Nobody wants to admit the King has no clothes.

ChristReconcilesAll · May 13, 2013

I just saw I had a double post. I'm sorry about that folks. The page wasn't responding, and I didn't think the first one went.

ChristReconcilesAll · May 14, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

I finally got to read all the posts in this thread, and wow you folks sure get riled up defending the Trinity and hell fire. I don't know if the sister is a Jehovah Witness, but I agree with her that neither of those doctrines is scriptural. I'm not a Jehovah Witness, for the record, and, according to some folks on this site, I'm not a Christian either because I don't submit to Rome which those same folks claim to have broken away from. I do not worship the three headed Roman god, and I don't believe the Roman lie of torture forever in fire either. I worship Yahweh Elohim, the creator of all, the God of Hebrew scripture whose only-begotten son, the word of God, the image of God, Yeshua HaMashiach, commonly called Jesus Christ, died for the sins of the whole world, was roused from the dead by the Father, and sits at his right hand in heaven, but who is subject to his Father. I've seen the word Jehovah used other places than our sister's profile including the King James Version. It seems like Yahweh is more common these days, but the point is I don't think you have to be a Jehovah Witness to think the Trinity and hell fire are nothing more than doctrines straight from the Roman Empire instead of scripture. I don't know if she does, but if she believes Jesus is Lord, died for our sins, and was roused from the dead, I think she's Christian even if I disagree with any other doctrine she may have just like I do with Catholics and Protestants. I think we should be doing what our sister Angela said in another thread about encouraging each other instead of condemning each other. I think we should use scripture as our basis of proof, not church doctrine, and, since most of us don't read Hebrew or Greek, you need an accurate translation to do so. I get amused at the Protestant vs. Catholic debate on this site because these doctrines are shared by both which has a lot to do with why I don't belong to either persuasion. I've communicated with some folks online who said they were Jehovah witnesses, and I don't agree with some of their interpretation of scripture either. I don't belong to any church or religious organization, but I do study a concordant literal translation of scripture daily. Translation has a lot to do with the confusion here because 1 John 5:7 does not have words added to it by the Roman church attempting to verify the Trinity in an unadulterated translation, and translating "aionion" as "eternal" is crazy since it's the adjective of "aion," literally translated "eon," a period of time not endless time. How do you describe a period of time as eternal unless you have an agenda to perpetrate deception about immortality of the soul? I think my Protestant brothers and sisters should wake up and realize that you're honoring what the Roman church has dictated instead of what is in scripture. It's too bad Martin Luther didn't purge these two doctrines when he did some others. Then I might consider being a Protestant. I was born and raised Catholic, but wised up when I was young and got out of that church. I hung out with some Protestant folks later, but then I decided I'm better off simply believing the word of God. I used to be a die hard King James fan until I became aware of its inaccuracies. I don't read the New World Translation. I've read several versions, but I have found the Concordant Version to be the most accurate. You won't find anything about the Trinity or eternal hell fire in it because they are not in the ancient text of scripture. Now you can argue that they're church doctrine which is correct, but they're not in scripture. If you argue that somebody who doesn't believe them is not Christian, then you're incorrect. I just prefer to call myself a believer because I don't want to be associated with the Trinity, immortality of the soul, or torture in fire forever. God is one not three, and his ultimate plan is not to torture in fire forever the majority of humanity. It is to be "all in all."

"You hear that I said to you, 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

"For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27,28)

Alter2Ego · Jun 1, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

If you would bother to read through the entire thread, you will see that I have addressed it thoroughly.

Angela53510 · Jun 1, 2013

So just wondering if you get brownie points for posting in this forum with your NWT of the Bible, and twisting of Bible verses? Like going door to door people do.

Are you the trainer or the trainee? I don't think you're convincing anyone of your heresies.

Just a few thoughts from an observer of cults!

europanz · Jun 1, 2013

"Let US make man in OUR own image" Gen .1:26.
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."Isaiah 9.6
" Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matt 28.19

Alter2Ego · Jun 5, 2013

europanz said:

ALTER2EGO -to- EUROPANZ:
I have be shown those identical scriptures numerous times by Trinitarians who claim the verses are proof of trinity. The context to each of the above verses says otherwise. But since you are claiming they are proof of trinity; please explain where you are seeing, in each of the above verses, the following: Father, Son, and holy ghost combined into a single "Godhead," and they are co-equal and co-eternal. Can you do that?

Alter2Ego · Jul 11, 2013

europanz said:

ALTER2EGO -to- EUROPANZ:
Sorry about the typo. I meant to write: "I have been shown" instead of "I have be shown."

Still waiting for you to show where Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6, and Matthew 28:19 indicate: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three person within a single "Godhead," and all three of the persons are co-equal and co-eternal. I read all three of the above verses and don't see anything resembling that. So I await your explanation.

Alter2Ego · Jul 11, 2013

Angela53510 said:

ALTER2EGO -to- ANGELA53510:
You are "an observer of cults" and don't even know the meaning of the word "cult"? Notice the definition below. Focus on Definitions #1 and #2.

Definition of CULT

1
: formal religious veneration : worship

2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3
: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4
: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

5
a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
Cult - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So exactly what point are you attempting to make when you indicate that only Jehovah's Witness get the "cult" definition?

BTW: I quoted from several different Bibles within this thread. Not only that, you failed to show the forum where the New World Translation (NWT) does not have the same contents as all other English Bible translations. When do you intend to do that? I will have to withhold your brownie points until you do so.

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