Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[maxamir]

No argument


Again no argument


Again, you did not complete the whole passage. you did want most people do and cut only the parts out that support your case. and ignored the parts that do not.

The argument has nothing to do with who will be saved, we agree.

The argument is who did Jesus die for, and what was the will of God.

The will of God is whoever sees and believes.

You want to remove believe from the equation. That's where the error comes from.

if the whoever is whoever chooses to believe then why did Christ say some were already condemned?

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is the fruit of salvation and NOT a condition to it!

 

[maxamir]

No one said it was.

But God will not give it to you unless you look and believe, thats the will of God.


But they can look and see. otherwise no one could be saved.



Yes. Sin was forgiven, that is called justification.. That is done through faith. Period.

You can not be made alive while still under the penalty of sin. Unless that sin is redeemed or justified.

We are justified by faith.

You can not remove faith from the equation.

Can a dead person look and believe?

Obviously you do not believe in the doctrine of original sin and somehow think that God lied to Adam when He told him he would die on that day.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

 

[maxamir]

Your argument is with scripture


There you go picking and choosng again

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Who did he give the right? To THOSE (as many) Who received him.

You can't keep cutting or ignoring plain words of scripture.

You also need to learn to interpret correctly.

I did not will God and he saved me based on that will. It was his will that if I saw and believed, i would be saved.


lol.

You talk about me humbling myself while you hold yourself up an a pedistool of how great you are that God chose you..

You need to look inside my friend.

I have no reason to boast before God as I know I only deserve the lowest pit of Hell and that He chose me not because of who I am or anything I have done, do, or will do but purely out of the good pleasure of HIS will to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6).

If you now understand that salvation is up to God's will then why do you continue to insist it is dependent upon the will of the person who believes?

True humility only comes to those who are granted to understand that salvation has absolutely nothing to do with their will which is at enmity with God.

 

[maxamir]

God changed my heart 40 years ago.

When will you allow him to change yours?

if God truly changed your heart you wouldn't be boasting about you being saved because you believed.

Cry out to Him to grant you grace to believe completely in His grace while He still gives you breath.

Act 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[maxamir]

lol.

Nope.

thats where you are in error.

They are liviung breathing souls.. They are not so dead they can do nothing.

Again, Stop puffing yourself up. and stop making God the creator of evil..

I suppose you think the Apostle Paul needs to change what he had written below about the nature of man born in sin?

Rom 3:10 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Rom 3:12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD;
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS;
Rom 3:17 AND THE WAY OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

God decreed all things that come to pass including the entrance of evil into the world at the choice of man by the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of His justice and His holy love in saving His people from that evil to the praise of the glory of His grace.

 

[maxamir]

Same here

Without the cross. I could not have any faith..

then humble yourself and stop looking to your faith and look to Christ and live!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The oldest Greek is "aligned to eternal life."
The TR has butchered the Greek to grunt language

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been aligned to eternal life believed.

τεταγμένοι
aligned

εἰς
to

ζωὴν
life

αἰώνιον
eternal


It means just like verses 46 Paul and Barnabas are "preaching the Gospel" and when the Gospel is heard Paul explains in Romans "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ."

So as the Gentiles heard the Gospel and Faith came and they Believed, it did as verse 48 explains... aligned them to eternal life

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If you think the word world means every single person without exception then there is no Hell as all must therefore be saved and Christ lied when He spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven to warn people of going there.

Instead, I believe you think that Christ died for every single person not to save anyone at all but to make it possible for them to save themselves if only they would believe.

The sad truth is that the demons believe and they are not saved and it is impossible for man to believe unless he is first born again by grace which came through Christ because without the Holy Spirit, the Gospel is foolishness to spiritually dead men.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes that includes everyone when there walking in the flesh even saved people.


Galatians 5:16-18I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

When a saved person is led of the spirit they are not subject to the law

When a saved person person is led by the flesh they are subject to the law this when they act as a natural man to.

Oh one more thing every name is in the book of life until it is blotted out


Revelation 3:5

King James Version



5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you think the word world means every single person without exception then there is no Hell as all must therefore be saved and Christ lied when He spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven to warn people of going there.

Again, this is not true. Because jesus said in the very next verses that whoever does not believe will be condemned.

what that means is jesus did nto die for the sin of unbelief.

Instead, I believe you think that Christ died for every single person not to save anyone at all but to make it possible for them to save themselves if only they would believe.

This ius not true either. How can I save myself if I can;t save myself and I must rely on someone else to save me?

Sometimes we just need to think about what we are saying

The sad truth is that the demons believe and they are not saved and it is impossible for man to believe unless he is first born again by grace which came through Christ because without the Holy Spirit, the Gospel is foolishness to spiritually dead men.

Demons do not trust the gospel. they believe there is one God.

Come on man..

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yep. that;'s why they must be spoke to By God..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

if the whoever is whoever chooses to believe then why did Christ say some were already condemned?

Because they did NOT BELIEVE.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is the fruit of salvation and NOT a condition to it!

View attachment 263351

So now you are telling God what God must do?

I was justified by Faith.. By the work of God.

Those are gods words not mine

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Can a dead person look and believe?

Did The disciples (all but Judas) look and believe?

What did peter say, You have the words of eternal life and we have come to KNOW you are the Christ?

Peter was not alive yet

Obviously you do not believe in the doctrine of original sin and somehow think that God lied to Adam when He told him he would die on that day.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Oh I believe it, I just do not distort it to mean something it was never intended to mean

In adam all die, even though in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have no reason to boast before God as I know I only deserve the lowest pit of Hell and that He chose me not because of who I am or anything I have done, do, or will do but purely out of the good pleasure of HIS will to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6).

Yes you do. God chose you over thousands of others.

Thats somethign to boast about

If you now understand that salvation is up to God's will then why do you continue to insist it is dependent upon the will of the person who believes?

Because it is Gods will that whoever sees and believes will be saved.

Is God not allowed to have a will?

True humility only comes to those who are granted to understand that salvation has absolutely nothing to do with their will which is at enmity with God.

When will you reach this level of humility?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

if God truly changed your heart you wouldn't be boasting about you being saved because you believed.

I am not. I am boasting in God who saved me..

Cry out to Him to grant you grace to believe completely in His grace while He still gives you breath.

I trusted completely in him 40 years ago. when will you?

Act 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

And because they believed, they were born again. Because they trusted God and stopped trusting self.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I suppose you think the Apostle Paul needs to change what he had written below about the nature of man born in sin?

Rom 3:10 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Rom 3:12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD;
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS;
Rom 3:17 AND THE WAY OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

God decreed all things that come to pass including the entrance of evil into the world at the choice of man by the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of His justice and His holy love in saving His people from that evil to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Yawn.

Chose this day who you will believe

Even Jesus said the people of Jerusalem were not willing..

Trust God or trust your doctrine.

If I was you I would walk away from doctrine and trust God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

then humble yourself and stop looking to your faith and look to Christ and live!

Looking to Christ IS FAITH. it is the defenition of true saving faith.. you look BECAUSE you have faith.. not to get it..

Stop looking at doctrine. it has you decieved..

 

[rogerg]

The false teachers are not the Elect.


No, I don’t believe so. The them are the false proohets.

I certainly understand what you’re saying. …and I’m at a loss; I don’t understand it. Right now, I’m studying…

I know it’s kind of late to address this now but after looking at your reply, selahsays, I wanted to give you my perspective of 2 Peter 2:1, as I do not believe the one that you replied to was correct. That prior post took the position that the false teachers and prophets were of those bought by the Lord. And with that interpretation, I completely disagree. I hope the following might make visible a point of view which may not be immediately obvious in the verse.

Okay so this may be a little difficult to follow so please try to bear with me, because the verse is more subtle than it might initially seem to be on the surface, plus, I am not the best of writers. So, it may take multiple rereading to recognize it.

First, to establish a foundation, in 2 Pe 2:7 - 9, we are informed that those who have been ”bought” by the Lord, cannot “bring in damnable heresies even denying the Lord that bought them” because God will not permit them to do so. Once an elect became bought by the Lord, the Holy Spirit brings them, guides them, and keeps them, in righteousness. So, those bought cannot be the false teachers.

[2Pe 2:7-9 KJV]
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jude 1:4 describes the same type of situation as in 1 Pet 2:1, using almost the exact same wording. The verse informs that “certain men who “before of old were ordained to this condemnation” (similar to the false teachers and prophets of 2 Peter 2:1). It would be impossible logically therefore that both conditions be true at the same time: that from old, God ordained them to condemnation, and yet, they also had been bought by the Lord – one precludes and negates the other. Further, why would the Lord have bought them if He had already ordained them unto destruction or vice versa since the verse informs us that they were ordained to destruction from of old?

[Jde 1:4 KJV]
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In 2 Peter 2:1, the” denying the Lord” informs us of the message that the false teachers would teach; the "that bought them" those whom the false teachers would try to teach their message to; that is, through their teaching, the false teachers would try to deny the Lord unto those who were actually bought of the Lord. It does not mean that the false teachers were themselves bought of the Lord (Jde 1:4 also teaches against that possibly being correct).

If I may, just for clarity purposes, rephrase to better demonstrate my point:

This is what I believe the verse to state:
“ false teachers bring swift destruction upon themselves by the teaching of the heresy of the denial of the Lord unto those whom the Lord bought.”

This is what I believe the verse not to state:
“false teachers, those bought by the Lord, brought swift destruction upon themselves from the Lord by the teaching of the heresy of the denial of the Lord.”

In the first (above), the "bought" by the Lord, are those who would be taught by the false teachers (but who will never accept it nor suffer destruction); in the second, the bought are the false teachers who definitely will suffer destruction.

I hope I was able to make the distinction a little clearer so as to nullify the perception that Christ died for everyone.

2Pe 2:1 KJV]
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

If you have difficulty in understanding it, please let me know and I'll try to clarify - as I said, I'm not the best of writers.

 

[rogerg]

The false teachers are not the Elect.


No, I don’t believe so. The them are the false proohets.

I certainly understand what you’re saying. …and I’m at a loss; I don’t understand it. Right now, I’m studying…

I should have included in my prior post to you that it will only be the elect who are bought by the Lord.

 

[maxamir]

Yes that includes everyone when there walking in the flesh even saved people.


Galatians 5:16-18I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

When a saved person is led of the spirit they are not subject to the law

When a saved person person is led by the flesh they are subject to the law this when they act as a natural man to.

Oh one more thing every name is in the book of life until it is blotted out


Revelation 3:5

King James Version



5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

a saved person always seeks to obey God out of gratitude and not merit.

 

[maxamir]

Again, this is not true. Because jesus said in the very next verses that whoever does not believe will be condemned.

what that means is jesus did nto die for the sin of unbelief.




This ius not true either. How can I save myself if I can;t save myself and I must rely on someone else to save me?

Sometimes we just need to think about what we are saying


Demons do not trust the gospel. they believe there is one God.

Come on man..


Yep. that;'s why they must be spoke to By God..

it seems to me that you agree with your head but disagree with your heart because you still maintain that salvation is ultimately dependent upon the person believing and therefore not grace.

 

[maxamir]

Because they did NOT BELIEVE.


So now you are telling God what God must do?

I was justified by Faith.. By the work of God.

Those are gods words not mine

no one is justified by faith in and of itself but by grace through faith in the blood of Christ (Rom 3-5).

Unless you submit to faith being a gift of God's grace and not something that people generate within themselves according to a supposed free will then you do not yet understand faith or grace.