Drunkness

[Nautilus]

What i cant responsible for every individuals weaknesses and still live a life. Im sorry there are people out there who have issues with things like alcohol I really am, but I dont see that a reason to deny myself. Ive always had a negative opinion of the way christians use the stumbling block verse. Like if just watching me do something is enough to make someone stumble, they were never serious about their faith in the first place.

 

[Stephen63]

Man if i took the time to judge every action i did beforehand to determine whether or not someone would stumble from it, i would never get anything accomplished.

Really? You make it sound as if some changes are needed.

 

[Stephen63]

What i cant responsible for every individuals weaknesses and still live a life. Im sorry there are people out there who have issues with things like alcohol I really am, but I dont see that a reason to deny myself. Ive always had a negative opinion of the way christians use the stumbling block verse. Like if just watching me do something is enough to make someone stumble, they were never serious about their faith in the first place.

You & I set at different ends of the spectrum. I've always had a negative opinion on the way the people water these verses down so they can live irresponsibly when it comes to others. I feel sorry for former alcoholics who have became Christians and now they read stuff like this in the forums. I also feel sorry for the hundreds, if not thousands, of children who may grow up thinking that drinking alcohol is all right. After all, how much is too much? How much do we drink to keep it under the borderline? You see, out of every thread that talks about alcohol, no one agrees on a standard, therefore there isn't one. It leaves us to do what's right in our own eyes, and that's dangerous. That's probably a good reason why we shouldn't do it in the first place.

 

[superdave5221]

I don't usually hear being "under the influence" rationalized except by those who indulge. Always ask yoursef...Would Jesus do it? IF no..then don't.

Any comment on what Jesus would do is pure speculation.

What we do know is what Jesus did.

Jesus drank wine.

In Roman society in the first century, wine, a fermented beverage, was commonly drank with meals. Generally, table wine was diluted with water with about four parts water to one part wine. Sometimes, if a stronger drink was desired, a two to one, or one to one mixture might be substituted.

Straight wine was never had unless the intent was to become intoxicated. Therefore, the "under the influence" is a good indicator of whether or how much alcohol to consume.

One other thing to consider. If you read 1 Cor. 9, Paul talks about the use of liberty. Paul states that in consideration of those of lesser faith, you should not use the liberty that you have to do some things if those things cause others to stumble. This would apply in some cases to Christians and the use of alcohol. In the presense of those with a known weakness or problem, it is better to not use the liberty that we have to use alcohol in moderation.

There are situations in certain societies in which the refusal to accept an alcoholic drink would be offensive to the offering parties. This is certainly not a good way to start an evangelistic relationship.

In light of what the bible says, and what we know about people in general, it is better to not be dogmatic about this issue, and let each person decide based on his/her conscience as to whether or not to use alcohol in moderation. Excessive use to drunkeness is prohibited in the bible.

 

[Ariel82]

standard: drink but don't get drunk

eat but don't be a glutton

pray unceasingly.

 

[Stephen63]

standard: drink but don't get drunk

eat but don't be a glutton

pray unceasingly.

Questions:
1. How much is too much?
2. How will I know when I've reached the borderline?
3. Can I get addicted even though I don't get drunk?
4. Can the child of an alcoholic woman "drink responsibly" without getting addicted? (research this)

 

[zone]

You & I set at different ends of the spectrum. I've always had a negative opinion on the way the people water these verses down so they can live irresponsibly when it comes to others.

get real.
so they can live irresponsibly? *yawn*

stephen if you don't drink wine with your meals, no one judges you for that.
why don't you heed Paul's warning, and stop judging others?

if you struggle with wine, don't drink it.
tell other christians and they assuredly won't drink it when you are there.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I've been reading your posts. You would make a good pastor.

I would not; however, I'm an apologist. But you shine with the pastorial gift brother.

Alcohol was prohibited in America for a reason, and it's not because people were just having one drink with their dinner. It was the Protestant Church that pressed for prohibition because they seen it as immoral. We don't have to be drunk to be impaired, and one drink is all it takes to impair one's judgement, if even for just a moment. We must be sober and vigilant in these times.

Just as a general rule for myself: if the world supports it, I am most likely going to be against it. Why? Satan is the father of this world we live in, take a look around it's all too obvious. He tells Jesus in the wilderness that all the kingdoms of the world have been delivered unto him (Luke 4:4-6).

Also just as the scripture Stephen posted says it's not good to do it if it will make somebody stumble, offend them, or make them weak and there are a WHOOOLLE lot of people that fall into those categories.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Questions:
1. How much is too much? well if the motive is you are consuming for the purpose to appreciate and savor the taste... sipping and enjoying it that way... the small amount consumed does not have an intoxicating effect. Am I being clear about the MOTIVE? Consuming a beverage with the motive to be affected is going to have exactly that affect... Do you get it??? Should a right motive person consume too much to quickly and become affected, they will be convicted of their error... discover their limit and make a wise PERSONAL decison in that regard to future consumption. Further that person has not comitted some horendous sin because the bible is CLEAR that regarding LIBERTY... MOTIVE is what determines... we can do RIGHT things with wrong motives and WRONG things with right motives. THe bible also clearly teaches that there is LICIT and ILLICIT use, sex is a very good example. THe bible also clearly indicates "medicinal use" so concluding consumption is forbiden in the bible is an ERROR. Consumption with the motive for DRUNKENNESS is clearly forbidden... be it a LITTLE or a lot... understand?
2. How will I know when I've reached the borderline? anyone would know... see above regarding MOTIVE.
3. Can I get addicted even though I don't get drunk? NO.. you clearly do not understand the mechanics of addiction and your perspective appears to be lacking the MOTIVE requirement I have previously mentioned.
4. Can the child of an alcoholic woman "drink responsibly" without getting addicted? (research this)

[COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"[COLOR="Magenta"]]yep... again you do not understand the mechanics of addiction which include, MOTIVE and Metabolics.

ALso this Dogmatic appraoch does not include the HOLY SPIRIT or the fact that the bible says a born again person is BORN AGAIN... so if a unsaved alcoholic wants gets born again and then wants to believe thay are an alcoholic for the rest of their lives whether they drink or not... this is a form of enslavement... to which CHrist has set them free. Many people CHOOSE to be enslaved to the"lifetime alcoholic" lie... because they don't understand, the full benefits package of redemption.
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

 

[See_KING_Truth]

I've been reading your posts. You would make a good pastor.

Being a pastor would be awesome!

 

[Jon4TheCross]

A person can be drunk on money as well, I mean just look at the reaction people have when given large amounts of money, and then to see what they do with it, wow, it's drunkeness as well.

WHY do you persist in doing violence to words and their proper definitions... with grandiose philosophy?

You also made it a point to emphasize being under the influence (under the power of?). A person can be drunk/under the influence/under the power of money, fame, luxuries, family, alchohol, hate, etc. Drunk is just another word for being under the power of something. Anyone pointing fingers at someone under the power of something should keep in mind the fact that almost all are not under the power of God alone, because we are still in the body of this death. I will not judge anyone who drinks, or look down on them anymore or any less than someone who does not approve of taking action regarding all things common, equality, no respect of persons, casting lots, etc, because those who do not approve of taking steps towards these goals that help with unlimited fruitfulness, are also under the power of something besides only God.

All that the Everlasting Priesthood needs is God (our one and only inheritance), and everything else is a tool to be used in the goal of unlimited fruitfulness and edification. If we do not understand that nothing is ours but God/Light, then we are under the power of that something that we consider our own. A person who is under the power of the need to have a certain quality of life is equally hindered from unlimited fruitfulness as much as a person under the power of something else like alchohol. The only difference is the way the world and Christians treat the various people (respect of persons), and that is partly why there is such a thing as a greater sin than another sin. Alchohol brings out the abundance of the heart much easier for many, and for many the abundance of the heart is damaging to others. This makes drinking alchohol to the point of drunkeness with a bad abundance of the heart an equal sin to lying, but if it brings out even more damaging actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words because of a bad abundance of the heart a more damaging choice which many times results in even more sin.

1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.


It is possible in certain circumstances and situations that drinking alchohol can be a decision based on the motivation to love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself. If someone offers a specific type of person a beer, and accepting that beer is more edifying than rejecting it, then it's better to accept it for that specific type of person. In the same way it is edifying to eat or drink things that appear to be less than edible from a certain perspective, because if it's offered by people who value that seemingly unedible food or drink, then we know that God takes care of the rest. This is also why we can drink deadly water and it won't hurt us, as long as it's not testing God, and it brings glory to God. I agree that for the majority of Christians, they look at any alchohol and any smoking or chewing or things like that as something unedifying, and so in this culture we should just let it go, and seek to edify. If there are other cultures where it is more edifying to accept certain things which they consider a gift that other cultures consider an abomination, it is more edifying to be made all things to all men, that we by all means might save some. I believe that a soldier on the front lines is more likely to be in these situations, rather than a more localized member of the church.

Word definitions are definitely important.

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[psychomom]

Any comment on what Jesus would do is pure speculation.

What we do know is what Jesus did.

Jesus drank wine.

In Roman society in the first century, wine, a fermented beverage, was commonly drank with meals. Generally, table wine was diluted with water with about four parts water to one part wine. Sometimes, if a stronger drink was desired, a two to one, or one to one mixture might be substituted.

Straight wine was never had unless the intent was to become intoxicated. Therefore, the "under the influence" is a good indicator of whether or how much alcohol to consume.

One other thing to consider. If you read 1 Cor. 9, Paul talks about the use of liberty. Paul states that in consideration of those of lesser faith, you should not use the liberty that you have to do some things if those things cause others to stumble. This would apply in some cases to Christians and the use of alcohol. In the presense of those with a known weakness or problem, it is better to not use the liberty that we have to use alcohol in moderation.

There are situations in certain societies in which the refusal to accept an alcoholic drink would be offensive to the offering parties. This is certainly not a good way to start an evangelistic relationship.

In light of what the bible says, and what we know about people in general, it is better to not be dogmatic about this issue, and let each person decide based on his/her conscience as to whether or not to use alcohol in moderation. Excessive use to drunkeness is prohibited in the bible.

superdave!!

It's always nice to see you.

And, you took the words right out of my...fingers?? lol

We have a glass of wine on occasion, and always mix it with water.
(my OB/GYN calls this 'abstemious'. )
And if we are with or around folks who would be offended, we just skip it.

We have friends who never have wine in a public place, though they do sometimes at home.
They just don't want to create a bad witness, and to my mind, that's kindness and Godly living.

Perhaps people whose lives have been negatively touched by someone with a drinking problem are more sensitive to this issue, and I respect that.

-ellie

ps--I hope this post isn't offensive, in itself...
I promise you, if you have a problem with this, and you were at my house and it happened to be the day after Thanksgiving, the bottle we started at dinner the day before wouldn't be in sight.
Not because we are ashamed of it, but because we love you!

 

[BarlyGurl]

You also made it a point to emphasize being under the influence (under the power of?). Yes Jon I did say that, yet the thread topic is DRUNKNESS and the OP pliainly indicated DRINKING, as in consuming intoxicating beverages as the intended context.

A person can be drunk/under the influence/under the power of money NO, unless you are asserting that we EAT/DRINK/SMOKE money and that by eating/drinking MONEY we become inebriated, intoxicated, or or otherwise altered in mind. WHich is not the case. Here I will barrow from an argument you have made previously and state that MONEY is NEUTRAL it is form of bargaining exchange not a commodity intended for injestion. Asserting a person can be DRUNK on money is false. Howbeit a person can be influenced negatively by the "BUYING POWER", percieved "SOCIAL STATUS" or "EARTHLY GAIN"... the bible calls this LOVE of money and it is a LUST of the flesh.
fame, is also NOT eaten and is a STATUS not a substance
luxuries, ARE purely subjective as my luxuries are subject to my preference and opinion. The term is vague, luxuries can be comodities which are drank/eaten/smoked, but do not necessarily have intoxicating effects.
family, is the inclusive term of a group of people generally accepted to be related by blood/marriage/adoption. EATING/ DRINKING?SMOKING your family is highly wicked and NORMAL people would no do this. WE can be influenced by a family member (person) or several... but that is by an external permissiveness by relationship, it is NOT drunkness.
alchohol, YEs alcohol which is the intended focus of the thread.
hate, is an emotion subject to the will it it has NO physical substance and cannot be eaten/drank/smoked.
etc. Ad Nauseum
Drunk is just another word for being under the power of something. According to this statement, if I were capable of seizing your person and rendering you unable to to move or escape... you would be under my physical power and therefore DRUNK??? I am hoping you recognize the absurdity in that.

Word definitions are definitely important. Yes I agree... which is why I pointed out your misuse of words. OI also recall that I am not the only person to have mentioned the misuse or to have suggested you "CHECK" the grandiose rationale born from it. Have some care for your neighbor, use words with more consideration, instead of making them stumbling blocks.

 

[Nautilus]

You can be drunk with more than alcohol...perhaps you should have looked up definitions. Alot of the things he is talking can all fit under the phrase drunk with power or the second definition of drunk which is 'overcome with strong feeling or emotion'

drunk [drʌŋk]
adj
1. intoxicated with alcohol to the extent of losing control over normal physical and mental functions
2. (Psychology) overwhelmed by strong influence or emotion drunk with power
n

 

[BarlyGurl]

You can be drunk with more than alcohol...perhaps you should have looked up definitions. Alot of the things he is talking can all fit under the phrase drunk with power or the second definition of drunk which is 'overcome with strong feeling or emotion'

drunk [drʌŋk]
adj
1. intoxicated with alcohol to the extent of losing control over normal physical and mental functions
2. (Psychology) overwhelmed by strong influence or emotion drunk with power
n

Am I mistaken that the title of this thread is DRUNKNESS (mispelling of DRUNKENESS) and that the OP paily stated DRINKING?
drunk·en (drngkn)
adj.
1. Delirious with or as if with strong drink; intoxicated.
2. Habitually drunk.
3. Of, involving, or occurring during intoxication: a drunken brawl. See Usage Note at drunk.
4. Cooked with wine or another alcoholic beverage: drunken mushrooms.
drunken·ly adv.
drunken·ness n.

Is this a thread about DRINKING - swallowing a liquid alcoholic beverage or colorful psychological figurative speech?

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I'm sorry, I was just emphasizing drunkeness in general.

G1850
ἐξουσιάζω
exousiazō
ex-oo-see-ad'-zo
From G1849; to control: - exercise authority upon, bring under the (have) power of.

1Co 6:12 All thingsG3956 are lawfulG1832 unto me,G3427 butG235 all thingsG3956 are not expedient:G4851 G3756 all thingsG3956 are lawfulG1832 for me,G3427 butG235 IG1473 will notG3756 be brought under the powerG1850 ofG5259 any.G5100

 

[BarlyGurl]

I'm sorry, I was just emphasizing drunkeness in general.

I honestly don't think you are purposefully intending to confuse... you get LOFTY. I am a pretty smart gal... but some people really are looking for direction and their spirituality quotient is just developing. Isn't it expedient for very simple threads to have a simple a treatment and leave the loftier commentary to the more complex threads? Heck... even I try to stay out of those....
Blessings to you.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I'm sorry, I was just emphasizing drunkeness in general.

I honestly don't think you are purposefully intending to confuse... you get LOFTY. I am a pretty smart gal... but some people really are looking for direction and their spirituality quotient is just developing. Isn't it expedient for very simple threads to have a simple a treatment and leave the loftier commentary to the more complex threads? Heck... even I try to stay out of those....
Blessings to you.

Yes I understand what you are saying, but my part is to always challenge people in pointing fingers at themselves, and so I can do that in helping them to understand what it means to be under the power of something. When they understand that they are or aren't under the power of a specific thing, then they can help those who are still under the power of that. Many are under the power of money, and that to me is something worth pointing out, cause it's doing more damage than alchohol by far.
I will try to keep the loftyness to a minimum, and I thank you for your posts.

 

[RedTent]

No one is speaking about the Christian who is addicted to alcohol. My father felt he was addicted although he was drunk only three times in his entire life. He saw that others had one drink and stopped, he couldn’t stop, so he never had anything alcoholic again.

I understand addiction. I was addicted to nicotine, it was TERRIBLE. I stunk. I was sinning. I prayed continually. I quit every single night, it was always my last thought before I fell asleep. I only got control after I landed in the hospital, poisoned by nicotine. A wonderful group of spiritually grown women prayed for me, it was the next week that I landed in the hospital and was finally cured.

What a terrible disease addiction is! Some are cured through the Lord, some are not.