each is to die of their own sins

[SarahM777]

Why did Adam and Eve sin?

To blame your birth state for your sin is to deny your own culpability in your rebellion. You are blaming God.

Skinski,

You didn't answer the questions.

Two where did I blame God in this? Just because one has a bent to do things wrong does not shift the blame. Remember God created Adam and Eve perfectly,after they fell the whole entire creation has been under the curse of sin. See what you don't get is how wide and deep the curse goes,everything in the entire creation was affected. You want to minimize how badly sin has AFFECTED everything,including our entire being. And what else don't get is that because the curse is there we go right to the wrong,don't even have to think about it,it's a part of us whether you like it or not. Which by the way is what Paul said here

Romans 7

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Paul is very clear that it is something inside of him that causes him to do this. Paul says NO GOOD THING DWELLS IN him.
But of course you have those that will insist that somehow they are better then Paul. They DO have good in them,they can choose the right things to do. So what does that Paul? Is Paul confused? Is he lying? Or does Paul speak the truth when he says that there is NO GOOD THING IN him? So is Paul blaming God because Paul does not have any good in him?

 

[homwardbound]

Yielding to God wholeheartedly IS NOT saving yourself.

No, you are right, it is God who has thus done it at the cross for me and I hold onto that wholeheartedly, no other way except through Christ, who I am co-crucified with on a daily basis, hourly, and on and on as it gets deeper and deeper
Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

Why did Adam and Eve sin?

To blame your birth state for your sin is to deny your own culpability in your rebellion. You are blaming God.

And so God had Mercy on us all, by his Son Christ, in a sense it is not our fault, yet we all still know right and wrong and have sinned period by free choice, being aware. And God who knows no sin took it all away through the Son
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Not in Good Works, in the Faith of God through Christ the Son, where we all are forgiven, just not all have received this, and those that have go to death, participate with Christ in Christ's death, and thus are mead alive though dying to the self as Paul did, thus Paul could as we can too, through co-crucifixion with Christ
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Did God just do this for Paul or for all that believe God, yet many are stuck on some kind of I must work program and have denied the truth of self being crucified with Christ
So what do you think Skinski, does God get all the credit or not, whether anyone sins or not?

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski,

You didn't answer the questions.

Two where did I blame God in this? Just because one has a bent to do things wrong does not shift the blame. Remember God created Adam and Eve perfectly,after they fell the whole entire creation has been under the curse of sin. See what you don't get is how wide and deep the curse goes,everything in the entire creation was affected. You want to minimize how badly sin has AFFECTED everything,including our entire being. And what else don't get is that because the curse is there we go right to the wrong,don't even have to think about it,it's a part of us whether you like it or not. Which by the way is what Paul said here

Romans 7

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Paul is very clear that it is something inside of him that causes him to do this. Paul says NO GOOD THING DWELLS IN him.
But of course you have those that will insist that somehow they are better then Paul. They DO have good in them,they can choose the right things to do. So what does that Paul? Is Paul confused? Is he lying? Or does Paul speak the truth when he says that there is NO GOOD THING IN him? So is Paul blaming God because Paul does not have any good in him?

Paul is speaking of the BONDAGE of sin by personifying sin. He is not saying that sin is a some kind of "thing" in him that forces him to sin.

He is speaking of being in "captivity to a law in his members" and due to this captivity he cannot stop sinning. Thus he is a wretched man crying out for deliverance.

This is why Paul says in Romans 8:2...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit of life In Jesus Christ is what set him free from this wretched state.

As a wretch he was "carnal and sold under sin." In other words he was operating under a base nature and was enslaved. Sinners are basically enslaved to the bodily passions and desires.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In this carnal state where he was sold under sin he found that...

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

In other words he could not escape this enslavement in the flesh.

What did Abraham discover as pertaining to the flesh? (Rom 4:1). Abraham found that being counted righteous by God was not of works (Rom 4:6) but was strong in faith and trusted God (Rom 4:20-21) and thus walked in those steps (Rom 4:12).

What did Paul discover as it pertains to the flesh? He had a desire for change (in his mind) but the law he found active in his flesh kept him in captivity to the law of sin (Rom 7:23).

Again read Romans 8:2 for Paul specifically teaches what set him free and it was not the flesh. Rather it was the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST which set Him free. This is why there is no condemnation of those who are IN Christ Jesus because they are no longer enslaved to the law of sin and death because they no longer walk according to the flesh, instead they walk according to the Spirit whereby they mortify the deeds of the body.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Romans Wretch was under the law and sought release from bondage via the law. It does not work for one cannot defeat sin in the flesh. Only via plugging oneself into God can one be set free hence...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The bondage is broken in dying with Christ...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The old man must be crucified with Christ once and for all and this is where the "body of sin" is DESTROYED!

This is the death that sets one free from being enslaved to sin. It is not only the death but the rebirth that is associated with it. For it is the Spirit of life In Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death and what is that law?

That law is that if you sin you die. God's salvation sets us free from that because via a death and rebirth the life IN Christ whereby we walk in the Spirit keeps us from "sinning unto death." Hence...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is a complete change of service. We go from SERVING SIN to SERVING RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The Romans wretch is CLEARLY still serving sin because sin is still his master. Hence he is CARNAL and SOLD UNDER sin. He cannot do what he wants because he is a slave. Sin owns him.

Jesus Christ through the cross BOUGHT US BACK from sin. Thus when we partake in his sufferings (2Pet 4:1) and die with in order that we abide in the Spirit of His life (Rom 8:2) we cease from sin (2Pet 4:1) because we no longer serve sin (Rom 6:6) but instead serve righteousness (Rom 6:12-13). This is what it means to be under grace.

Grace is not some abounding forgiveness which cloaks ongoing enslavement to sin.

Grace is the literal power of God which sets one free from enslavement to sin.

Many people do not believe it.

Instead they believe they will be Romans Wretches for the rest of their lives and salvation is simply trusting in the provision they perceive as the cross which to them is a COVERING for ONGOING INIQUITY.

What do you believe Sarah?

Are you carnal and sold under sin?

Have you been set free from bondage or do you still serve sin?

Has your heart been made PURE?


Do you believe in HEART PURITY in salvation? Well do you?





Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Skinski7]

It seems to me that many people believe that "sin in them" is effectually greater than "Jesus Christ in them." Due to this belief they completely deny that they can defeat sin via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Hence they will continually argue in favour of ongoing sin. These folks never stop defending a life of ongoing sin. They teach "sin you will and sin you must." What a tragedy!


Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It seems to me that many people believe that "sin in them" is effectually greater than "Jesus Christ in them." Due to this belief they completely deny that they can defeat sin via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Hence they will continually argue in favour of ongoing sin. These folks never stop defending a life of ongoing sin. They teach "sin you will and sin you must." What a tragedy!

It seems to me that you are wallowing in your own delusions, and projecting onto others the condemnation of your own conscience that results from the holy spirit's witness against your own disobedience.

 

[Elin]

More information...

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ood-christ-ransom-not-penal-substitution.html

GOT ANSWERS?

Romans 5
Peace and Hope

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless,

Christ died for the ungodly.

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

what's all this Christ dying FOR others?
what's all this BLOOD shed FOR others?
what's all this DYING FOR the UNGODLY?
what's all this WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES Sinless Perfect Jesus DIED for us?

WHY DID HE SUFFER AND DIE?

how did THAT satisfy God - JESUS DYING TO SATISFY - WHAT?

His wrath on SIN.

who sinned?

JESUS?

 

[SarahM777]

What do you believe Sarah?

Are you carnal and sold under sin?

Have you been set free from bondage or do you still serve sin?

Has your heart been made PURE?


Do you believe in HEART PURITY in salvation? Well do you?

Do you even read completely what I post or do you ignore a lot of it?

How many times do I have to give you my testimony? How many times do I have to tell where I was and where He has brought me?

He is the one that made my heart pure. He has made me a new creation. Which includes heart,mind soul and spirit and in time it will my body.

I can say as David said so long ago.

Psalm 51

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

It seems to me that many people believe that "sin in them" is effectually greater than "Jesus Christ in them." Due to this belief they completely deny that they can defeat sin via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Hence they will continually argue in favour of ongoing sin. These folks never stop defending a life of ongoing sin. They teach "sin you will and sin you must." What a tragedy!


Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

who is arguing in favor of ongoing sin? I see we are debating that Christ took it all away to give us new life in the Spirit of God and we learn to trust God and be in Spirit to obey, and it is not us obeying, it is God through by the Holy Spirit from God to us, by the resurrected Christ.
The fight is either one is of the flesh or Spirit, so which are you of the Spirit of God or the flesh?

 

[Skinski7]

Do you even read completely what I post or do you ignore a lot of it?

How many times do I have to give you my testimony? How many times do I have to tell where I was and where He has brought me?

He is the one that made my heart pure. He has made me a new creation. Which includes heart,mind soul and spirit and in time it will my body.

I can say as David said so long ago.

Psalm 51

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

If you truly believe in heart purity in salvation then what is it EXACTLY that you object to in my writings?

It seems to me your objection is rooted on the notion of "inability" in an Augustinian context. Not that we can "do nothing apart from Christ (Joh 15:4-5)" for He is the light of the world and the source of all life. Rather in the context that God must first offset an "inability to yield" ala Irresistible Grace offsetting Total Depravity.

I believe that the grace of God has appeared to all men and thus all men have the ability to turn to God because all men have been enlightened by Christ (Joh 1:7). There is no such thing as inability lest God gives one over to a reprobate mind Rom 1).

So what is it exactly you object to? Be specific with a quote of mine and don't insinuate something you cannot substantiate with my actual words please.

 

[homwardbound]

No one has the ability to do what Christ did in the flesh, before salvation and or after.
So since the flesh is unredeemed and are in waiting for this redemption, how about in the meantime one ask God for one to be dead to flesh be co-crucified with Christ at the cross of Christ, and then just maybe seeing our flesh nature dead to sin as romans 6 says we are, just maybe we can then see the born again Spirit of God for each of us by the resurrected Christ in the Spirit of God.
Now I hear this is to be true as a daily practice dead to flesh sinful nature, co-crucifixion deeper and deeper as each day goes by, seeing the new life clearer and clearer as we die deeper and deeper.
That to me is the new life as shown to me, life is in the Spirit of God
Therefore as Romans states
[h=3]Romans 6:1-11[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Dead to Sin, Alive to God[/h]6What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5[/SUP]For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So as it states if you are dead to sin which you are if you decide to die to self and be co-crucified with Christ at the cross, then you are alive to God in the Spirit of God and can't sin. The only way one can sin is not believe they are dead to it and alive to God
So if one wants to stop and not be proud and or boastful anymore, trust God and be co-crucified with Christ at the cross die to self as Saul did and became Paul, counting all his flesh works as garbage and can glory more in his flesh than any other.
Trusting God to show those that are seeking to know truth that sets them free, and they shall be free indeed

[h=3]1 John 2:1-3[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

[h=3]The Test of Knowing Him[/h][SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments

So what are his commandments then? Could it be! dead to self and alive to God, by asking God to co-crucify you with God's Son Christ, so you can then be alive to God?
Or should we just continue to try and do what is right with God's help?
And for those that are trying to do it with God's help, how are you doing, getting proud or boastful, a little self-righteous, as Saul was hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe you might consider what is being written to you? free choice God just love you