Gifts

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Marian

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Hi Dave,


Its a gift coming from God and its really an awesome and Have this gift from the Holy Spirit and He will give it to you.
My friend gave this site to fully understand the gift of the Holy Spirit that i wanted also to know.

From : http://www.remnantofgod.org/tongues2.htm
We find undeniable evidence in God's Word that there is a true gift of tongues. No Bible believing Christian will question this fact. There are three recorded instances when the gift of tongues was given to the apostles and disciples. There is further reference to this gift in one of Paul's epistles. (See I Corinthians.) The Bible speaks of it as a true gift given by the Lord. There is a true gift of tongues. So, the question becomes, is that which is currently promoted and seen today as tongue-speaking, the true Biblical gift.
The heart of the tongue-speaking movement's message is Acts 2. In the second chapter of Acts is found the first instance when the Christian church was given the gift of tongues. Because it is the first time that anything like this is recorded in the Bible, great detail is given. There is great elaboration, to make sure that we understand exactly what this gift is and why it was given. Jesus, in His departing words, had promised, "For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5. Again Jesus had foretold of the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Acts 1:8. With these precious promises given, the disciples began to search their hearts and prepare for this marvelous event. For ten days they continued in prayer and humiliation that they might receive this gift promised by the Lord.
After spending ten days on their knees, the Lord poured out His Spirit in answer to their prayers. "Now when the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4.
After much heart searching, confession, prayer and preparation, the Lord abundantly fulfilled His Word. It was fulfilled in a very marked way to give great impetus to the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus. There were only a few disciples and a commission to warn the entire world, and so, for this reason, the Lord gave largely of His Spirit. Obviously, the disciples received the true gift of tongues, but what was this true gift?
"Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, 'Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:5-11. What was the gift of tongues that the disciples received? It was the ability to speak in other languages. A true miracle indeed! It takes years to learn a language fluently, and even then there is usually an accent; but not so when the true gift of tongues was given. Instantaneously, the disciples were able to communicate with those who spoke totally different languages than what the disciples spoke. This was indeed a remarkable day.
It was the feast of weeks, one of the required feasts for the Jewish males to attend. The city of Jerusalem was crowded with pilgrims from the outlying areas, and it was at this time that God chose to pour out His Spirit in a marked way. When the sound from the outpouring of the Spirit was heard, the curious crowd came flocking together to see what was happening. With thousands of people gathering around to hear, the disciples began to speak, but this was no normal speech. It was with the gift of tongues. It caused great confusion and amazement. Never before had men been able to speak a language that they had not learned. It caused such consternation to the wondering crowd, that they enumerated the different languages that were spoken and understood. There were fifteen total: Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, Libya, Rome, Cretans and Arabs. There is no question about it; the gift of tongues was the ability to speak another language, fluently, without ever having learned it.
Why was this gift given? It was for the proclamation of the gospel. With such a large number of Jews from all over the world in attendance, the message could then spread with lightning speed. The Jews would hear the gospel of Jesus and take it back to their homes. Then Christianity would grow exponentially. The purpose of the outpouring of the Spirit and the gift of tongues was not to give evidence that they were baptized with the Spirit, but to spread the everlasting gospel far and wide.
It is true that the priests and rulers opposed this gift. This should not be surprising, for they were the very ones who crucified our Lord and Savior. They were the very ones who bribed the soldiers to silence the testimony of the resurrection. Once again they hardened their heart against the display of God's power, and attempted to attribute this miracle to natural causes. They claimed that the disciples were drunk with wine. (See Acts 2:13.) Peter quickly silences that ludicrous objection by showing it to be a fulfillment of the Old Testament Scriptures. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh:" Acts 2:16, 17. The manifestation of the Spirit was not vain babbling that could be confused for a drunken man's speech; it was the perfectly understood use of foreign languages&. everyone heard them speak in his own language.... And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? We hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:6, 8, 11. The preaching of the disciples was not indiscernible babbling that was then deciphered by the hearers; it was distinct languages spoken by the disciples under the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the true gift of tongues.
In the New Testament there are two usages of the word, tongues: 1) the physical tongue in the mouth, or an object shaped like it and 2) languages. There is generally no question about the body part which we call the tongue. It is the fact that tongues mean known languages, that can be misunderstood at times. "We hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." "And have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation." "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands." "And he said to me, 'You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.'" "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves." "And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people" "And he said to me, 'The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.'" Acts 2:11; Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15. Over and over again, particularly in Revelation, is the word "tongue" or "tongues" used, meaning languages. When the apostles received the gift of tongues, it enabled them to speak in other languages to be able to spread the gospel, and tongues is repeatedly used by Bible writers meaning languages. The true gift of tongues, then, is the God-given ability to speak other languages.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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I would love to hear what you guys have to say about spiritual gifts-especially the gift of speaking in tongues
Im not sure if i actually have that particualr gift and have had some bad experiances in the past but have moved passed those.
I know that all gifts are from our awsome god and im aware of some of the gifts that he has given me already but im wondering how can one know if they are actually speaking/praying in tongues-should one practice, keeping asking god until it happens or just wait till you randomly start one day??
well like anyother Biblical doctrine man has gotten their hand in it, there is a false teaching concerning that if you get baptized in the Spirit that you will speak tongues but the Bible clearly says that

I Corinthians 12
1co 12:1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.1co 12:2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.1co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.1co 12:4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.1co 12:5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.1co 12:6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.1co 12:7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.1co 12:8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;1co 12:9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;1co 12:10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:1co 12:11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.1co 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.1co 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
notice verse 1
1co 12:1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
and then in verse 10
1co 12:10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


to another not to all but to another there there are several places in acts where when people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit they did speak in tongues but it is not the evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost







here is a time when no tongues were mentioned after receiving the Holy Ghost


Ac 8:15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:Ac 8:16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)Ac 8:17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.Ac 8:18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

but the main point is that the same Spirit but different gifts so let's not be ignorant brethren not all that receice the Holy Spirit will speak tongues, also praying in tongues and speaking in tongues is also totally different.
 

iwant2serve

Senior Member
Apr 12, 2009
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Tongues are one of the most misunderstood gifts that God gave us. People teach that if you don't speak in tongues then you are not saved. When in a church service Pastors and Ministers pray for people and tell the congregation "everyone pray in tongues". People are in a church service and just blurr out all loud in tongues. The Bible, in Corinthians chapter 14 is a good place to study about tounges. I will tell you this much as improtant as tongues is as a gift LOVE is the best gift of all. For if you have all the gifts and have not LOVE ther is no edification to no one. I think it is better to seek God for the interpitation of tongues, in that way others can be edified by what is being said. Although tongues is a sign of the Ho;y Spirit, the best sign is the power the Holy Spirit to change your life. I I would have never spoke in tongues it would have been ok, but if there was no power of the Holy Spirit to change my life then I would be worried.
 
R

Remmy

Guest
soo i have a quick question..maybe we take a break from this''speaking in tongues gifts'' for awhile...it may seem like a dumb question but i've been a commited christian for almost 2years so i dont know too much about spiritual gifts..i mean i took like a spiritual ability test a couple of times and i kept getting different gifs every time i did the test so i thought maybe i should wait and mature first and than find out what my gifts are..anyway so this pastor prophesied over me and he said i will have dreams and visions..about a month later i was laying on my bed,i had just read my bible and i dont know if i fell asleep or not but i had this dream(or vision) i dunno what to call it..but i knew it wasnt just an ordinary dream because everything was soo clear...never in my life had a dream been that clear to me so i knew it wasnt just a normal dream..so i was at the beach at night time with alot of ppl around me..the moon and stars were sooo bright..it was sooo pretty..and all of the sudden the moon and the stars fell down and ppl started to rise up and i did too but than i got scared and i forced myself to wake up but i couldnt open my eyes..i litterly had to open my eyes with my fingers..they were so heavy..it was like i wasnt suppose to wake up yet...... i had this dream a year ago and i still dont know what it really means
my question is,is this a spiritual gift?? or is it just something every christian has?and how do i know what god is tryin to tell me? i guess thats3 questions huh..lol..

hopefully someone can help me out..
god bless
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Could be a prophetic gifting imparted to you or stirred up in you from the pastor.

Dreams and visions are promised as far back in the old testament:

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


Those spiritual gift tests do not always give reliable results. Spiritual gifts are the God-given ability to do things which you were not able to do previously, in the natural. They cannot be learned, and they come from God's Spirit not your natural person.

That is different to naturally acquired talents and abilities. You might have no naturally acquired ability to preach for example, and the test might reveal that... but when the Spirit comes upon you and manfiests a spiritual gift of preaching through you, you then have the supernatural ability to preach.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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1 Corinthians 13

The context of this chapter is mainly about love.. with a sub-context of the spiritual gifts of the gifts of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.. and also other gifts when you look back at the beginning of the book of 1st Corinthians.

In this - Paul writes about the primacy of love.. the permanent nature of this.. and faith and hope.. over the temporary nature of gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge + others.

Paul wrote to the church at Corinth.. at a particular time..

He wrote about the 'more excellent way' that would supercede the use of the gifts of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.. at a time in the future from the people of the church at Corinth.

This more excellent way would render the use of prophecy and tongues and knowledge etc.. as being 'rendered inoperative, ceased, abolished'

"Now I know in part and prophecy in part.... but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away"

The more excellent way involved the continuance of faith hope and love, without the need for prophecy and tongues.. and would come about by something that is perfect arriving.

That which is perfect or the perfect thing -

1) it is an inanimate object-- not an 'it' -- it is a 'thing'

2) the perfect is compared with the partial.. whatever is perfect was in part in Paul's time - the perfect completes the partial

3) the word perfect- in the Greek.. means something that is 'mature' 'lacking nothing necessary for completeness' 'complete' - it has a slightly different meaning to the English interpretation of perfect.. unless you look at the word in terms of a perfecting of something in process.

4) the perfect thing-- will give a full reflection of a person.. allow them to know themselves fully by it's revelation

So- what was in part in Paul's time? In process.. that became complete later?
Something that lacks nothing necessary for completeness?
Something that is an inanimate object? Something that is the revelation of God.. as tongues, prophecy, tongues and the other gifts are?

The Word of God.. the bible.. fits 1 Corinthians 13 like a glove

It is--

*complete
* the full revelation of God's Word
* it completes the purpose of tongues and prophecy and knowledge gifts to reveal God's Word
* it is a thing
* it was in part in Paul's day.. OT complete.. but NT in process
* it gives a full reflection of who people are.. has human nature down to a tee


Problems with Jesus being the perfect thing-

* Jesus is not an inanimate object-- He is a being-- an 'it' .. he is not a 'thing'

* the context of 1 Corinthians 13 is something in part coming to maturity.. completion.. Jesus was never in part

* the context of 1 Corinthians 13 is also about God's revelation through spiritual gifts.. not the 2nd coming of Jesus

* the perfect thing that was to come was mysterious to Paul.. if this is supposed to be Jesus' 2nd coming.. Paul knew this very well.. and was not mysterious

* after the point at which the perfect thing has come.. faith hope and love remain.. what is the need for faith and hope.. once we see Jesus? Faith is the evidence and substance of something not seen.. Hope is in Jesus' 2nd coming.. what need is there for either of these once Jesus returns?

Put your emotions aside and think this passage of 1 Corinthians 13 through.. you will find that the Word of God fits 1 Corinthians 13 like a round peg in round hole.. and the 2nd coming of Jesus like a square peg in a round hole :)
 

wattie

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Feb 24, 2009
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oh and the gift of knowledge.. was knowledge of God's revelation.. being revealed through the Apostles to bring scripture to completion. We have knowledge now ya.. but do not need the supernatural gift of knowledge to know God's revealed Word.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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That which is perfect or the perfect thing -
1) it is an inanimate object-- not an 'it' -- it is a 'thing'

Wattie I agree that the "perfect" is not referring to Jesus, however, neither is it referring to the canon of scripture. The perfect "it" was I think perfect knowledge of God to be gained at the second coming of Christ.

Few, even non-charismatic theologians would attribute that which is perfect to the canon. The majority seem to refer it to the second coming of Christ. The following is a list of what some different bible scholars had to say on the subject and they don't refer to the perfect being scripture, but something more perfect and more profound:

As John Gill says in his commentary:

But when that which is perfect is come,.... When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,
"the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";''

John Gill (November 23, 1697 – October 14, 1771) was an EnglishBaptist, a biblical scholar, and a staunch Calvinist. He was born in Kettering, Northamptonshire. In his youth, he attended Kettering Grammar School, mastering the Latin classics and learning Greek by age eleven. The young scholar continued self-study in everything from logic to Hebrew. His love for Hebrew would follow Gill throughout his life.


John Wesley wrote:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come - At death and in the last day. That which is in part shall vanish away - Both that poor, low, imperfect, glimmering light, which is all the knowledge we now can attain to; and these slow and unsatisfactory methods of attaining, as well as of imparting it to others.

John Wesley (pronounced /ˈwɛslɪ/) (28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and Christiantheologian.


Peoples New Testament (B.W. Johnson) commentary says:

When that which is perfect is come, then the partial knowledge and prophecy will be done away. The imperfect will give way to the perfect; the perishable to the enduring. "The perfect" was expected at the coming of Christ. Some think that it came when the church was fully matured, since the special gifts then ceased. If there is a reference to this, the final and complete reference is to the glorified church.


Matthew Henry wrote:

III. He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (1Co_13:10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here. The difference between these two states is here pointed at in two particulars: 1. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood: When I was a child, I spoke as a child (that is, as some think, spoke with tongues), I understood as a child; ephronoun - sapiebam (that is, "I prophesied, I was taught the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, in such an extraordinary way as manifested I was not out of my childish state"), I thought, or reasoned, elogizomēn, as a child; but, when I became a man, I put away childish things. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused and indistinct notions of things, have children, in comparison of grown men! And how naturally do men, when reason is ripened and matured, despise and relinquish their infant thoughts, put them away, reject them, esteem as nothing! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts and acquisitions in this world, when we come to heaven. We shall despise our childish folly, in priding ourselves in such things when we are grown up to men in Christ. 2. Things are all dark and confused now, in comparison of what they will be hereafter: Now we see through a glass darkly (en ainigmati, in a riddle), then face to face; now we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known. Now we can only discern things at a great distance, as through a telescope, and that involved in clouds and obscurity; but hereafter the things to be known will be near and obvious, open to our eyes; and our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1Jo_3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Psa_36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day.

Matthew Henry (18 October 1662 – 22 June 1714), was an Englishnon-conformist clergyman


Barnes wrote:

Albert Barnes (1798 – December 24, 1870) was an Americantheologian, born at Rome, New York, on December 1, 1798. He graduated from Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, in 1820, and from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1823. Barnes was ordained as a Presbyterianminister by the presbytery of Elizabethtown, New Jersey, in 1825, and was the pastor successively of the Presbyterian Church in Morristown, New Jersey (1825–1830), and of the First Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia (1830–1867).


1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come - Does come; or shall come. This proposition is couched in a general form. It means that when anything which is perfect is seen or enjoyed, then that which is imperfect is forgotten, laid aside, or vanishes. Thus, in the full and perfect light of day, the imperfect and feeble light of the stars vanishes. The sense here is, that "in heaven" - a state of absolute perfection - that which is "in part," or which is imperfect, shall be lost in superior brightness. All imperfection will vanish. And all that we here possess that is obscure shall be lost in the superior and perfect glory of that eternal world. All our present unsatisfactory modes of obtaining knowledge shall be unknown. All shall be clear, bright, and eternal.


We also have contemporary theologians like D. Carson who says that 1 Corinthians 13 appears to preclude a position that the gifts have ceased, but that it refers to the parousia.

He comes from a different background still:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_CarsonDonald A. (D. A.) Carson is a prominent, conservative scholar of the evangelical movement. He is currently a research professor of the New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, which is based in Deerfield, Illinois, United States. Carson's academic qualifications include a Bachelor's degree in Chemistry from McGill University and a Doctor of Philosophy in the New Testament from the University of Cambridge.
Don Carson is also a speaker at many Christian conferences.


2) the perfect is compared with the partial.. whatever is perfect was in part in Paul's time - the perfect completes the partial.


Verse 11 to 13 show this:1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Paul is talking about his level of knowledge attained. He is saying that his knowledge shall be clear and distinct. That which is perfect, and that which is partial, is knowledge.

Logically, it makes no sense to say that the scripture is that which is perfect. Because if that were true, then what Paul said about his knowledge being partial at the time, and the fact that he wrote a large part of the scriptures and yet we claim the scripture is perfect, is entirely contradictory.
Guess what? Paul, with all his partial knowledge, was the author of much of the new testament! Therefore scripture is simply a record of Paul's partial knowledge he had at the time he wrote it. There is no magical elevation in knowledge since some guys decided which books should be in the canon or not. What Paul wrote for us in his writings as partial knowledge, is still partial knowledge today.

That which is in "part" cannot refer to any singular book of the bible. Each book of the bible was existing in complete form and not parts of information scattered around the place. I do believe the books of the bible were perfect at the authors wrote them.

Where do you think the books of the bible came from? Were they all written when the canon was closed? No, they were already in circulation in the church well before the canon was closed, and at the time when the spiritual gifts were in use in the church.

Think about it, you claim that the scripture is that which is perfect and that resulted in the gifts ceasing. But the very scripture you claim is perfect, such as 1 Corinthians, is the very scripture that was in existance at the time they were exercising the gifts. Did Paul tell them they could stop using the gifts now that he had sent them a letter ? No way.

Further problems for the cessationist position are when we try to compare the old and new testaments. The idea that the perfect which has come in 1 Corinthians 13 is the scripture, finds no supporting evidence in the old testament.

The passages in Joel 2:28-32 which foretell the events of Pentecost , say nothing about anything ceasing. Rather it says that
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

and then jumps straight to the end in verse 30-31.

There is no such idea of anything ceasing during the period of the last days in the prophetic words of Joel.

We find the introduction of the gifts and the Spirit to the church prophesied in Joel. Yet such a great event of the completion of scripture and resulting ceasing of the Spirit's function through the gifts, is not mentioned at all in Joel?

But that which is "perfect"t referring to the parousia and perfect knowledge of Christ in 1 Corinthians 13, fits nicely with the coming of the Lord mentioned in Joel 2 verses 30 and 31 and so we have synergy between the old and new testaments on this issue.
 
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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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Problems with the perfect thing being 'the church'

* Jesus church was complete right from the start when He started His first church with His disciples.. it was never in part. It grew as an institution as more churches were planted.. but with Jesus as the Head every church then.. and now.. can be mature and complete through Him.

Problems with the perfect thing being perfect knowledge..

* Perfect knowledge of what? If it is of Jesus-- this is perfect knowledge- would be 'mature' or 'complete' knowledge.. and is contained in scripture.. we don't have complete knowledge ourselves.. but there is a complete picture of Jesus in scripture.

Remember-- that which is perfect.. is something mature, complete, lacking nothing necessary for completeness.. and is a thing.

When Paul was talking about scripture being in part.. He wasn't just referring to what He wrote to the Corinthians.. but the entire canon. And yes.. the books were complete before the canon was closed.. but it is the completion of the canon.. not the approval of the canon by humans that is the perfect thing.

Also.. the word perfect.. like I typed before-- doesn't carry the same meaning as the English interpretation.. as unblemished or untainted.. when you see the word perfect... have a look in the margins in bibles at what it means..

1Co 13:10 ButG1161 whenG3752 that which is perfectG5046 is come,G2064 thenG5119 thatG3588 which is inG1537 partG3313 shall be done away.G2673

G5046

τέλειος

teleios

tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

So this is something complete.. rendering prophecy, tongues and knowledge + other gifts ceasing.. with prophecy tongues and knowledge gifts + others as in part.

It is comparing are part with something complete.. a portion of the whole. If prophecy and tongues and gifts of knowledge is God's revelation.. the bible is the complete record of God's revelation!


Think few scholars consider that which is perfect to be the Word of God coming to completion? Well.. have a look at thousands of independent baptist church pastors.. and see what the majority of them have to say about it. The majority of these churches are grounded in the Word. Same goes for
open brethren churches.. but that isn't really the point. The issue is what is the best look at scripture when you let it interpret itself.

I don't care much for commentators.. I do care for just discussing scripture plainly..

Prophecy and tongues shall cease.. but when Jesus comes that which is in part shall be done away?

This is a completely superfluous thing for Paul to write! Of course prophecy and tongues would be gone away then.. because saved people will be taken up to heaven!

This verse is only significant if Paul is talking about something happening before saved ones are taken up. Remember it is something Paul considers mysterious.. Paul did not consider the 2nd coming mysterious..

If it is perfect knowledge of Jesus and not Jesus.. isn't scripture a complete record of who Jesus is? Perfect- telios - something mature and complete..

If I put the 2nd coming as the perfect thing.. or perfect knowledge as teh perfect thing.. the depth that it goes with the surrounding verses is very shallow.. and it does not fit the context.. put the completion of God's revelation.. the Word of God.. and it compares perfectly with the spiritual gifts as being God's revelation... it completes something that was in part..

* Jesus was never in part
* The church was never in part - every church Jesus owns has been complete since He began with His disciples
* Knowledge of Jesus was never in part-- OT predicted Him.. eyewitnesses saw Him..


So we will have to agree to disagree.. :)
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Of course prophecy and tongues would be gone away then.. because saved people will be taken up to heaven
That is exactly the point which Paul is making. I can't see how it is superfluous because he is explaining the temporal nature of the gifts, and how only love will remain in heaven , or rather, in the new earth, depending upon where the saints will be. Some held such high importance for the gifts they neglected to love. Paul is saying, the gifts will pass away, but the love won't.


This verse is only significant if Paul is talking about something happening before saved ones are taken up. Remember it is something Paul considers mysterious.. Paul did not consider the 2nd coming mysterious..
Writing of scripture and closing of the canon doesn't sound particularly mysterious either?


I can't see that we can read anything else into the text about completion of scripture. I did first get that by plain reading of the text myself years ago, and it's comforting to realise that a fair number of theologians from different non-charismatic backgrounds also make no mention of it being the close of the canon. That is not to say that these men I quoted from do not believe in cessation due to other reasons - but it shows that the use of what Paul said as irrefutable proof of cessation is not a very solid argument.

Wattie, going by verses 11 and 12 which clearly refer to understanding and knowledge, it is clear to me and most of those theologians I quoted from that the context is not scripture or canon, but knowledge. The sense of the text is that what is partial (knowledge) will become perfect (knowledge). What is partial and then becomes perfect must be the same thing.

You claimed that the scriptures were in part but I think you'd have to add the scripture to that list as well. Did Paul ever say the scriptures were partial? Never. In fact, at the time, it was written that the Scriptures they had were able to perfect the man of God (verse 17), which indicates the complete nature of scripture they had at the time, and that it was never in a partial state to be later completed.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So any argument that scriptures were partial and incomplete, and become perfect, is not correct.

Knowledge of what? Good point. Knowledge of Jesus was never in part? Well I think there is a heck of a lot we don't know about God and Jesus and Jesus was spending only 1 to 3 years with a handful of them not to mention Paul who never saw Jesus in the flesh but received the gospel by direct revelation. That's my best guess.

Regardless of what sort of knowledge it is that was in part but will become (future tense) perfect, it is clear that it cannot be the scriptures which were a) never in part, and b) never perfected.

The scriptures never "came to completion" as you claim. The scriptures were never in part themselves. Your idea suggests that when the writings were written they were somehow imperfect. Gill shows this is not correct in his statement:
Not that the Scriptures, the rule and measure of knowledge, and from whence spiritual knowledge is derived, are imperfect;

What is the Scripture really? What we have is a collection, not a revised edition, not a perfected edition, of books that were written by the original authors when those authors themselves were still in a state of partial knowledge as Paul admits in 1 Corinthians. So the idea there were partial and became complete simply by choosing which books should be in the canon, is not sound logic at all.

Before the canon of scripture was determined, each book of the bible was a complete whole and perfect in its own right. Many of the books that we know of as today as "canon" were already well in circulation in the early church before someone had the idea to put them all together and call it a new testament or whaver they did.

We know that the scripture has been perfect ever since and even before the Spirit and gifts for service and power ever came to the church as per the prophet Joel and Pentecost. Any idea of scripture coming to perfection or completion is not sound theology. A complete record of God's revelation was exiting before any guys decided to choose which books should be canonised and which not.

So to summarise , the following reasons are cases for the "perfect" not referring to the close of the canon or completion of scripture:

1. Scripture was never in such a partial state , that it had to be completed or perfected later on. The idea that it was partial at the time Paul wrote it, is totally contradictory to the idea they somehow become "complete" when Paul's writings are put together with some others. Every book of the bible was complete and mature at the very moment the inspired author wrote it. We know that the various books of the bible, the canon, was already in circulation in the early church before it was ever officially "canonised". Scripture itself , which refers to scripture, such as 2 Ti, indicates it to be a complete and useful thing , that does not require future completion of any sort.

2. Historical early church writings post-scripture, speak of the gifts as being still in existance.

3. There is no prophecy in the old testament predicting any ceasing of the gifts at the time scripture is "complete". This is despite prophecy existing which predicts the coming of the Spirit (Joel, and other places). There's no mention of it ceasing. If it was such a great and mysterious event, we should be able to find reference to it in the old testament. I can't.

4. The context of 1 Cor 13, particularly the surrounding passages about knowing in part, etc, indicate the context to be knowledge, and not a future "close of canon".

Finally, I think it is very difficult to establish a case for cessationism based upon sola-scriptura, either from old or new testament canon, or even apocryphal writings.
 
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I came across a verse that I think is helpful with this subject. it is not a question if God still works through signs and wonders, miracles, and the gifts. but the question is does God still use man, and what are the gifts, and signs and wonders for, not that man can glory, but rather that the Glory of God may be seen. the manifestation of the Spirit to be seen , and God has always use man for this, and our Love and spiritual fruits should be our main focus for without Charity, all the power of the gifts come as tinkering bells. But back to the question does God still use man to get His work done, as I have pointed out in Mark's gospel of the great commission, Jesus said to go preach those that believed, the Gospel would have signs such as casting out devils, speaking in new tongues, healing the sick, etc. so it is clear that God use/blessed other people, that were not apostles to show His Glory through. and as I have said before doesn't anyone besides me, find it strange that preaching, healing, tongues and casting out devil among other things were mention here in mark but we have only bought preaching with us for the Church of today
these verses do not mention the gifts but does teach us on how long God wants people to see His glory through the Power of the Spirit, that not only is in us , but manifests Himself through us.

Eph 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,Eph 3:21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

this is not my world, this world will burn one day and it's elements , but the World that I have through Christ, is a world where God can receive glory through the Chruch and in the Church throughout all ages. even in the past church and in the Church to come and in the Church today. Let God be the Glory. that has chosen the lowest of vessels to show Himself strong through.. throughout all ages including this present time.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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Hi and God bless,
I meant to get back sooner on this. I wanted to share more with you regarding this great subject.
I wrote previously about noting the difference between "gifts" and "manifestations."
I am presently using the King James Version for this short expository.
In 1 Corinthians 12:1 it reads, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Paul, writing by revelation revealing God's Will for us says, God does not want us ignorant. The word "gifts" in the King James Version is in italics for a reason. It was added by the translators. The word "spiritual" in Greek is the word, pneumatikos, meaning "things of the spirit", or "spiritual things."

That is the subject...SPIRITUAL THINGS...............which includes "gifts" [verse 4]

"administrations" [verse 5]..........."operations" [verse 6].........and "manifestations" [verse 7].

The nine manifestations are listed in verses 8-10.

In this sharing I will give you a basic understanding of these manifestations.

Speaking In Tongues is a manifestation of the spirit whereby you speak forth an inspired language divinely given to you by God. The language and the subject matter originate with God. The Spirit [God] gives the utterance. [Acts 2]. You do the speaking by believing. It worships God and builds you up spiritually [1 Cor. 12]. It is used primarily in your private prayer life.

Interpretation of tongues.........when speaking in tongues is employed in group worship, then speaking in tongues should be accompanied with interpretation of tongues. The interpretation will bring forth a message from God, to the people present, that will edify, exhort, and comfort.

Prophecy.......has the same effect as .......speaking in tongues with interpretation of tongues ......in that the hearers again will be built up by exhortation and comfort.

Speaking in tongues with interpretation of tongues ......and prophecy........serve to be signs for the believers of various spiritual maturilty levels. [1 Cor. 14:22]

Word of Knowledge........God reveals information to you which you cannot know with your five senses.

Word of Wisdom.........God reveals the action you should take, now that you know what's going on.

Discerning of spirits...........God reveals to you the necessary information concerning the presence or non-presence of spirits, their identity, and whether or not you may cast them out.


Faith [Believing]............Once God gives you revelation by word of knowledge, word of wisdom and/or discerning of spirits, you have to BELIEVE to carry out that revelation as God has given it, so that Miracles and /or healings can come into manifestation

Miracles and Healings are manifestations that come into evidence [they are manifested in the senses realm] when a person believes to carry out the revelation they received from God.


Ladies and gentlemen.......if you understand this, your walk with God will just take on a new joy and your understanding of records of miracles and healings in the Bible will become clear.

God bless, you are God's best

Mark
Thankyou for listing this. I have had many disscussions in the past with pastors and have often wondered why one would say that these gifts have already ceased. When I first read this scripture I saw multiple ways these words applied. I read it guided by the Holy Spirit and never was given the impression that these gifts have ceased. I did see how this scripture applies to our walk with Jesus and the many ways this is applied. The most telling is that all of the word is living and alive. It made no sence that it would cease in the way that some say. I saw how it applied to our relationship with Jesus. From childhood to adult. From newly saved to maturing in the word, I saw the prophetic applicaion in how the world will try to take away our knowlage, how what will stand the test in faith and when Jesus returns. My suggestion to all that are not certian is to read this in prayer with full hope in the help of the Holy Spirit and faith in Our Lord Jesus. Then stand before Jesus in prayer and answer to Jesus in your heart as to what you believe this scripture says. It is before him we will be accountable. I pray that the true understanding of the Holy spirit will be made known to all of us in Jesus Christ Our Lord's name. God bless, pickles
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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Paul considering something mysterious in 1 Corinthians 13..

1)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The second analogy Paul produces to illustrate the partial being swallowed up with the complete is the illustration of a partial, obscure reflection contrasted with a full, vivid and perfect image:

Verse 12: - “For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known”

The term “Glass” refers to a “Mirror”

Keep in mind the point of the illustration: To illustrate the partial being done away in the complete.

The term “Darkly” means “Obscurity”. It is the Greek word “Ainigma” where we get the English word “Enigma” from – mystery.

Q: What was obscure, mysterious to Paul and the Corinthians as he wrote this passage?

A: The revelation being revealed at the time through the gifts of tongues, prophesy and knowledge.

Paul is saying at the time he wrote to the Corinthians that:

“The revelation of God that we currently have provides a partial, obscure image but when it is complete, finished, matured, we shall have the whole picture!”

“For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (When that which is perfect is come) we shall see face to face”- a clear, vivid, full and perfect image.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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I would love to hear what you guys have to say about spiritual gifts-especially the gift of speaking in tongues
Im not sure if i actually have that particualr gift and have had some bad experiances in the past but have moved passed those.
I know that all gifts are from our awsome god and im aware of some of the gifts that he has given me already but im wondering how can one know if they are actually speaking/praying in tongues-should one practice, keeping asking god until it happens or just wait till you randomly start one day??
Hmm? I want to start with an actual experience. My husband and I had a friend who was Pentecostal. He was the first to mention speaking in tongues. (I was raised Southern Baptist and that gift just wasn't even discussed.) So I really wanted to know more about this since it is in the Bible. One night I got on my knees and prayed to God and told Him I believe all of the Bible is His Word and if He wanted me to understand I would accept it and if He didn't have me understand that I would still believe it was for yesterday, today and tomorrow. Period. Well God had a special gift for me and my prayer to accept all of His Words.

I was attending a Woman's Community Bible Study with about 200 women of all denominations. As I was studying my lesson for the week, I had my Strong's Concordance that I used to help me understand the meaning of words. While I was sitting there studying and answering the questions (with the help of the Holy Spirit) I began to hear words in my mind that sounded like jibberish. I called the leader of the Bible Study (who had also been my Sunday School teacher in the Baptist Church.) She told me not to call God's words jibberish. So I heard that still small voice that I knew was God speaking to me. I am a very good speller and I started writing the words down. Then I heard God again to look up the words in the back of the Concordance. I was totally awed at what happen. None of the words were in Greek but all were in Hebrew and it told the story of Jesus dying for our sins and that He is the perfect lamb. I started crying with joy because God had given me a special "gift". That which I didn't earn but was given by God because He chose to.

So I believed from that day forward. That without an interpretation there is no edification. Speaking in tongues in a group or alone is not edifying but is confusing. It is like only one side of a coin without it having a back side. God can and will provide interpretation. His gifts are for yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Then there is also praying in an unknown language. This God showed me is the perfect prayer because it is God praying for us to Him. There is no better prayer than God praying. We just have to be a willing vessel. That is true for whether you are called to speak in an unknown tongue or to give interpretation of that which you do not know the language.

I didn't witness this myself, but I heard that during one of Joyce Meyer's preaching or teaching or whatever you call her ministry, that on one side of the stadium a woman stood and spoke in a tongue she did not know. On the other side of the stadium two women started shouting. Joyce called them to the stage and it was verified that the two women heard the message in their own tongue. (I think they were African, but like I said I did not actually witness this.)

Does that make your hairs on your arms rise. It does mine. That is God's doing and not man's or woman's. Praise God for He is just and not a respecter of persons.
 
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