God's suverenity in our decisions and in our fates

[trofimus]

It is said in the Scriptures:

1. that God hardens (Exod. 4: 21 and 7:3; Isa. lxiii. 17);

2. that God sends a lying spirit (1 Kings xxii. 23); strong delusion that they should believe a lie (2 Thess. ii. 11);

3. that he deceived the prophet (Ezek. xiv. 9);

4. that he commanded Shimei to curse (2 Sam xvi. 10);

5. that the children of Eli hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them (1 Sam. ii. 25);

6. that the Lord took away Job's substance, even although that was done through the malice of brigands (Job i. 21);

7. that he raised up Pharaoh, to show his power in him (Exod. ix. 19; Rom. ix. 17)

8. that he is like a potter who makes a vessel unto dishonour (Rom. ix. 21);

9. that he hides the truth from the wise and prudent (Matt. xi. 25);

10. that he speakes in parables unto them that are outside, that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest at any time they might be converted, and their sins might be forgiven them (Mark iv. 12; Luke viii. 10);

11. that Jesus was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts ii. 23);

12. that Pontius Pilate and Herod with the Gentiles and the people of Israel did that which the hand and the counsel of God had determined before to be done (Acts iv. 27, 28);

13. that it was of the Lord to harden the hearts of the enemy, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour (Joshua xi. 20);

14. that the Lord mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, and caused it to err in all its works, like a drunken man (Isa. xix. 14);

15. that Rehoboam hearkened not unto the word of the people, for the cause was from the Lord (1 Kings xii. 15);

16. that he turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate his people (Ps. cv. 25).

------------------

How then can we define our freedom or free will?

 

[Grace777x70]

Those are all interesting observations and all very good questions.

I can think of 2 things for myself that I think I need to factor in when looking at these. Others may have a different opinion and that is fine. We all know in part only. I suspect that most of these things we will not know about fully until we stand before the Lord one day.

1) There are some scholars of the Hebrew language that describe certain uses of verbs in a different sense then what is sometimes translated. For example:

Young's Analytical Concordance from the 1800's says this at the start of the work under - 'Hints and Helps for Bible Interpretations - 70 (b) - Active verbs in Hebrew frequently express a permission - not in a causative sense."

Is it possible that some things that "look" like God has caused them - in reality they are consequences of actions in this world? Could it be that God used those consequences to bring about His plan despite what the circumstances produced? After all God is God and He can do anything - except lie.

( isn't that comforting to know?..we can trust Him when He says something. )

2) Jesus is perfect theology.

Hebrews 1:1-3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said that "No man knows my Father but I have come to reveal the Father and to do His will."

Whatever "perception" we have of God from the Old Testament that does not line up with what Jesus showed while He was on this earth will not be accurate.

It doesn't mean that God has changed as His nature always remains the same. His ways change for sure as can be seen from the law of Moses to the New Covenant based on the work of Christ.

So, we can have a "perception" of God and not be accurate in our assessment if it conflicts with what Jesus has shown.

Have we seen Jesus do any of the OP's actions while He was here revealing the nature of the Father? I haven't looked at them like that yet so I'm just throwing these 2 things out that I need to be answered before I can come to a conclusion that could be based on my faulty "perception" of what was happening in the Old Testament.

I have no idea if 1) is true or not and it could be one of those things that some think it's true and some don't.

I am 100% confident that Jesus is the exact nature of the Father so the thoughts of 2) - for me - are necessary to factor in before I can make a decision on the things talked about in the OP.

People are free to have a different opinion....as I'm just giving out my thoughts.....

 

[stonesoffire]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grace777x70 again.

I really wanted to rep u for this!

 

[Magenta]

Pharaoh hardened his own heart numerous times before God further hardened it. Also, saying God forms vessels for dishonour is not sound doctrine, for Paul is merely asking a question, not making a statement. Even though God as sovereign would have that right, to say He purposefully forms people to make them sin so He can punish them for their sins is to ascribe an attribute of evil unto a good and gracious, long suffering, loving, just, and merciful God.

 

[trofimus]

Those are all interesting observations and all very good questions.

I can think of 2 things for myself that I think I need to factor in when looking at these. Others may have a different opinion and that is fine. We all know in part only. I suspect that most of these things we will not know about fully until we stand before the Lord one day.

1) There are some scholars of the Hebrew language that describe certain uses of verbs in a different sense then what is sometimes translated. For example:

Young's Analytical Concordance from the 1800's says this at the start of the work under - 'Hints and Helps for Bible Interpretations - 70 (b) - Active verbs in Hebrew frequently express a permission - not in a causative sense."

Is it possible that some things that "look" like God has caused them - in reality they are consequences of actions in this world? Could it be that God used those consequences to bring about His plan despite what the circumstances produced? After all God is God and He can do anything - except lie.

( isn't that comforting to know?..we can trust Him when He says something. )

2) Jesus is perfect theology.

Hebrews 1:1-3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said that "No man knows my Father but I have come to reveal the Father and to do His will."

Whatever "perception" we have of God from the Old Testament that does not line up with what Jesus showed while He was on this earth will not be accurate.

It doesn't mean that God has changed as His nature always remains the same. His ways change for sure as can be seen from the law of Moses to the New Covenant based on the work of Christ.

So, we can have a "perception" of God and not be accurate in our assessment if it conflicts with what Jesus has shown.

Have we seen Jesus do any of the OP's actions while He was here revealing the nature of the Father? I haven't looked at them like that yet so I'm just throwing these 2 things out that I need to be answered before I can come to a conclusion that could be based on my faulty "perception" of what was happening in the Old Testament.

I have no idea if 1) is true or not and it could be one of those things that some think it's true and some don't.

I am 100% confident that Jesus is the exact nature of the Father so the thoughts of 2) - for me - are necessary to factor in before I can make a decision on the things talked about in the OP.

People are free to have a different opinion....as I'm just giving out my thoughts.....

1.
a) Is there any https source? I have never heard about this.
b) What do you mean by saying that God can do anything except lie? What He can do, for example?

2.
Actually, points 8, 9 and 10 are from the New Testament, i.e. the "era" of Jesus Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Pharaoh hardened his own heart numerous times before God further hardened it. Also, saying God forms vessels for dishonour is not sound doctrine, for Paul is merely asking a question, not making a statement. Even though God as sovereign would have that right, to say He purposefully forms people to make them sin so He can punish them for their sins is to ascribe an attribute of evil unto a good and gracious, long suffering, loving, just, and merciful God.

OK, I will not argue about these 2 points. But what about other 14 points?

 

[Grace777x70]

1.
a) Is there any https source? I have never heard about this.
b) What do you mean by saying that God can do anything except lie? What He can do, for example?

2.
Actually, points 8, 9 and 10 are from the New Testament, i.e. the "era" of Jesus Christ.

1) Here is a link to Young's Analytical Concordance. You'll have to go to the page that has "Hints and Helps" at the first part of the file and then go to 70 (b) to see the permissive and not a causative reference.

https://archive.org/stream/analyticalconco00youn#page/n23/mode/2up

Here is something else I found too.

I did find a Bible commentary by him on Google Books. Concerning this passage:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him (Ex. 10:1; Emphasis are mine)
​
Robert Young's Commentary says:

X. 1. DECLARED HARD.] See 3. 19; the causative (or Hiphil) form of the Hebrew verb is often simply permissive or declarative, as has been already repeatedly noticed, and as is universally admitted by all Biblical critics; see Ex. 23:7; 22:9; De. 25:1; 2 Sa. 15:4; Is. 2: 21; 1 K. 8:32; Job 9:20, &c.
​
Young uses a similar illustration in another passage in relation to Moses and Aaron:

Numbers 16:41
41 The reduplication of the pronoun shows the bitterness of the people; they thought that Moses and Aaron might have interceded with the Lord, and He would have spared even the guilty; they, not doing so, were held as having 'put them to death.' So; also, because Jeremiah (1. 10,) was commissioned to foretell the desolation of nations, he is said to do it himself; and God, because he foretold (Ex 3. 19,) the obstinacy of Pharaoh, is said (in 4. 21,) to have produced it. The Hiphil (or causative) form of the Hebrew verb found here is often only permissive.
​
So indeed Dr. Young did believe and teach that many of the things attributed to God in the OT could be read primarily as permissive in nature, even if he never got into the explicit detail about it that I was expecting to read.

( Again this is one perspective which may or may not be true but it does make one think.)

2) I really can't see where #8,9 and 10 show God specifically doing harm to people on purpose but that could be open to interpretation too.

 

[Grace777x70]

1.
a) Is there any https source? I have never heard about this.
b) What do you mean by saying that God can do anything except lie? What He can do, for example?

2.
Actually, points 8, 9 and 10 are from the New Testament, i.e. the "era" of Jesus Christ.

Opps....sorry, I forgot to answer your question about God cannot lie. The scripture says that God cannot lie - it is impossible for God to lie.

Titus 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Hebrews 6:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sovereignty <---is this what you meant?

 

[trofimus]

Opps....sorry, I forgot to answer your question about God cannot lie. The scripture says that God cannot lie - it is impossible for God to lie.

Titus 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Hebrews 6:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

I know about this. But I think He cant do anything immoral, not just lie. You said He can do everything except of lie, so I asked if you think He can do something unwise, immoral or so

 

[trofimus]

Sovereignty <---is this what you meant?

Oooh, sorry, I used a Czech word. Yes, I meant sovereignty. I was typing faster than thinking.

It cannot be changed now, I suppose...

 

[Desertsrose]

It is said in the Scriptures:

1. that God hardens (Exod. 4: 21 and 7:3; Isa. lxiii. 17);

2. that God sends a lying spirit (1 Kings xxii. 23); strong delusion that they should believe a lie (2 Thess. ii. 11);

3. that he deceived the prophet (Ezek. xiv. 9);

4. that he commanded Shimei to curse (2 Sam xvi. 10);

5. that the children of Eli hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them (1 Sam. ii. 25);

6. that the Lord took away Job's substance, even although that was done through the malice of brigands (Job i. 21);

7. that he raised up Pharaoh, to show his power in him (Exod. ix. 19; Rom. ix. 17)

8. that he is like a potter who makes a vessel unto dishonour (Rom. ix. 21);

9. that he hides the truth from the wise and prudent (Matt. xi. 25);

10. that he speakes in parables unto them that are outside, that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest at any time they might be converted, and their sins might be forgiven them (Mark iv. 12; Luke viii. 10);

11. that Jesus was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts ii. 23);

12. that Pontius Pilate and Herod with the Gentiles and the people of Israel did that which the hand and the counsel of God had determined before to be done (Acts iv. 27, 28);

13. that it was of the Lord to harden the hearts of the enemy, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour (Joshua xi. 20);

14. that the Lord mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, and caused it to err in all its works, like a drunken man (Isa. xix. 14);

15. that Rehoboam hearkened not unto the word of the people, for the cause was from the Lord (1 Kings xii. 15);

16. that he turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate his people (Ps. cv. 25).

------------------

How then can we define our freedom or free will?

Matthew 23:37-39

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is HE who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


Joshua 24:14-15
“Now, therefore, fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

How then can we not define our freedom or free will?

 

[Grace777x70]

I know about this. But I think He cant do anything immoral, not just lie. You said He can do everything except of lie, so I asked if you think He can do something unwise, immoral or so

OH...ok..sorry. I mis-read you then.

I don't think God can do anything unwise nor do I think He can do anything immoral as it would violate His character.

Do, you think if a parent holds their child's hand down in a fire to teach them something is doing something immoral or wrong? I know here in North America - they would throw us in jail for that.

I wonder where we get this sense of "morality?" I believe we get it from God and our sense of "goodness" of what is good and what is evil is from God too.

Some things just don't need to be taught to know instinctively that they are evil. ( unless their minds are gone )

 

[dcontroversal]

Oooh, sorry, I used a Czech word. Yes, I meant sovereignty. I was typing faster than thinking.

It cannot be changed now, I suppose...

Cool....learn a new word every day HAHA peace

 

[trofimus]

OH...ok..sorry. I mis-read you then.

I don't think God can do anything unwise nor do I think He can do anything immoral as it would violate His character.

Do, you think if a parent holds their child's hand down in a fire to teach them something is doing something immoral or wrong? I know here in North America - they would throw us in jail for that.

I wonder where we get this sense of "morality?" I believe we get it from God and our sense of "goodness" of what is good and what is evil is from God too.

Some things just don't need to be taught to know instinctively that they are evil. ( unless their minds are gone )

Exactly, He cant do anything that is against His good and wise character.

But to my original question - do you have some kind of a system how to draw a line between His eternal decrees about our lifes (good or bad) and our freedom and responsibility?

 

[Grace777x70]

Exactly, He cant do anything that is against His good and wise character.

But to my original question - do you have some kind of a system how to draw a line between His eternal decrees about our lifes (good or bad) and our freedom and responsibility?

Good question.

Here is the way I conduct my life. I believe I am free while in this earth to make decisions. I believe that I can be influenced by either the flesh or by the real me - the new man in Christ. I can choose with my will in these situations.

God also works within us to both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us the desire and the capability to do what is the good thing. He wins us over with His love - not in a dictatorship. God is love and love never fails.

I believe that God has plans and purposes for us. How those come about is most likely a combination of things like us working together with Him and some things He Himself is going to do and it is not based on us.

I believe that if it is God that is building the house - then no matter how bad we have ruined things with our own ways - He can be caught in the act of being Himself and still create His plan and purpose in and through us.

God thinks and lives in a place where time does not exist to Him like it does to us. How all that factors in to accomplishing what He has for us to do - I'm not sure. There is all of eternity too and not just things on this earth. He saved us because of His fiery love for us and He wants us to be with Him.

I know that it is also God that grants us repentance as well. I believe it starts and ends with Him - and there is a whole lot of me working with Him or not working with Him in between all that He does. There is a tension there but is not fully known to me the dynamics of it all.

I am at a point where I just say everyday that "It is You who is at work in me both to will and to do of Your good pleasure"...then leave it at that and thank Him that He will do what He said He will do.

I'm not sure if that answers your question but that's what comes to me when I think of these things that you have asked.

 

[oldethennew]

trofimus said,

"Exactly, He cant do anything that is against His good and wise character.

But to my original question - do you have some kind of a system how to draw a line between
His eternal decrees about our lifes (good or bad) and our freedom and responsibility?"

==============================================================
as far as our 'freedom', we are 'free' from the bondage of this world and all of the varieties of sin...
our 'responsibility' is to 'still be free from sin and bondage', we are 'slaves of Righteousness', this is our
responsibility... as far as God's Eternal Decrees', a couple examples given are, Eli and his sons - they were
'fornicating' before the TEMPLE ' - God doesn't like it when we try and 'mix' the 'un-holy with the HOLY,
therefore He made the decree'...we have Job, he was deprived of his
'worldly-possessions', because he was 'self-righteous'...'possessions are NOTHING' in comparison to,
God getting US right...
in all of the rest of scripture stated, we NEED to LOOK at the BEFORE and the AFTER, because,
'out-of-context', they can make our Saviour out to be the 'bad guy, when in FACT,
HE IS THE GREATEST and ONLY GOOD GUY!!! ...

 

[nowyouseem033]

Good question and thread for that matter...

Freedom can only be found in Christ. Which in turn means a true free will can only also be found in Christ.

Sinners have a will but that will is enslaved and in bondage towards sin. So how is it free i ask people who advocate it?

 

[oldethennew]

it's NOT free in the Spiritual realm, we can't just run willy-nilly in wickedness...that basic philosophy
that teaches us to 'gratify' whatever 'lust' we choose is contrary to God's Will...

therefore, there ARE consequences...