How to Lose Truth and (maybe) Your Head

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L

lesjude

Guest
#1
How to Lose Truth and (maybe) Your Head


John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb. See Luke 1:39-45.
John had the revelation of who Jesus was/is. Matt 3:13-17 and
John 1:29-37

New King James Version (NKJV)
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”

37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

The question is why did he not follow Jesus as the 2 disciples? Why did he speak truth to a man (Herod) who Jesus called a fox and would not even speak to? I will add that Herod was of the line of Esau and that line had (and still is) tried to destroy the seed of Christ all through the Bible. That spirit works with the spirit of one world government and religion to destroy believers today. See Luke 23:6-12.

First, John had the revelation but decided he did not like it as it did not fit the agenda of an earthly king as he believed Jesus should be. He chose not to humble himself and become as a "little child" to follow Jesus, listen, and find out what Jesus intended. An example is today's "dominion theologists" and a lot of other folks to numerous to mention.

John latched on to the nearest thing to a potential king (Herod) and began casting "pearls before swine". (Read the latest biography of Billy Graham if you want a modern example.) The result of John not humbling himself and getting involved in politics, which Jesus warned His disciples NOT to do, Mark 8:13 Mark 8:15, and resulted in John losing the revelation he had.
Matthew 11:2-6

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of[a] his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”

4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

Note that Jesus answered him with the word.

Pride that he could 'get it done' by getting involved in politics and casting pearls before swine had dire consequences. NOTHING has changed with Christians involved in partisan politics. By the way that was the Jezebel spirit in Herodias and her daughter that killed John. Do not wonder why 'she' has so much to say in today's churches. It is for the same the same reasons: female pastors, Christian women dressed like ****s, and the sensuous dance teams are some examples.
Revelation 2:20-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[a] that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[c] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[d] 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[e] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.


This is one reason the church has lost the revelation of who Jesus is, what He said to do, and HOW he said to do it. See Matthew 5, 6, and 7, Matthew 10:7-8, and Mark 16:15-18.
I will also add that how Christians think they should 'help' Israel by engaging in partisan politics is another BIG reason for loss of revelation of the same things. Please note that Israel is UNREGENERATE. The Bible is VERY specific as what believers should do in their regard.
Romans 9:6-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[a]


 
I

Indubitably

Guest
#2
"Pride that he could 'get it done' by getting involved in politics and casting pearls before swine had dire consequences. NOTHING has changed with Christians involved in partisan politics. By the way that was the Jezebel spirit in Herodias and her daughter that killed John. Do not wonder why 'she' has so much to say in today's churches. It is for the same the same reasons: female pastors, Christian women dressed like ****s, and the sensuous dance teams are some examples."

I believe some of your rants are not valid and I fail to see the connection with your primary thread and John being beheaded. Christians need to be involved in some political activity to have our collective voice heard in a society bent on every issue being made anti-Christian. All politics are partisan.

The goings on in the church, today? Some of the things you mention are good. Fundamentalist Christian values prohibit dancing. Yet, David danced before the Lord with all his might. There is nothing wrong with dancing in worship. As a matter of fact, dancing as a form of worship to the true God has a long, long heritage. It dates at least back to the Israelite exodus from Egypt, when Miriam, the sister of Moses, led some of the women of Israel in dance (Ex. 15:20). However, just because David danced does not mean that people have to dance. But neither should we prohibit any function shown as acceptable and worthwhile in Scripture.

Women preachers and how women dress I will not touch. Those are no win topics and wisdom is called for here.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#3
All Rom 9:6-7 is saying is that just because one is from the line of Abraham that that doesn't qualifiy them to be part of Israel e.g. the Ishmaelites. Rather one had to be part of Israel by promise e.g. Isaac. So you have physical descendants by promise of God(natural birth through Isaac and Jacob) and those spiritual Israel through faith in God's Promised One.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#4


First, John had the revelation but decided he did not like it as it did not fit the agenda of an earthly king as he believed Jesus should be. He chose not to humble himself and become as a "little child" to follow Jesus, listen, and find out what Jesus intended. An example is today's "dominion theologists" and a lot of other folks to numerous to mention.


Wow...John was a man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, yet you basically say that he didn't not have enough faith in Jesus. How can you not see that you have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner?
 
L

lesjude

Guest
#5
"Pride that he could 'get it done' by getting involved in politics and casting pearls before swine had dire consequences. NOTHING has changed with Christians involved in partisan politics. By the way that was the Jezebel spirit in Herodias and her daughter that killed John. Do not wonder why 'she' has so much to say in today's churches. It is for the same the same reasons: female pastors, Christian women dressed like ****s, and the sensuous dance teams are some examples."

I believe some of your rants are not valid and I fail to see the connection with your primary thread and John being beheaded. Christians need to be involved in some political activity to have our collective voice heard in a society bent on every issue being made anti-Christian. All politics are partisan.
The Bible is clear on how a disciple should act and do for government and those in authority. The point is John lost His revelation of Jesus and His Kingdom as a result of wanting to help establish an earthly kingdom i.e. grooming that fox Herod for the position. Now it is true a Christian cannot lose a revelation they do not have. It seems many do not know what kingdom they are primary citizens of and in which they are pilgrims passing through. The results are not representing King Jesus by doing what he said to do the way He said to do it. They feel they have to do something and "polyticks" law suits, boycotts, petitions, protests, tough talk becomes the means while what Jesus says to do is given lip service to (prayer), not done Mark 16:17-18, and obedience to government when expedient. The result is often intense scorn and hatred of Christians see Genesis 19:9 for the wrong reasons. Persecution for the right reasons comes from living the principles of Matthew 5, 6 and 7 and doing Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 at every opportunity. We do and get persecution for it.

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results is one definition of mental issues. Much prayer was offered for who Christians thought was "God's" choice for president in numerous elections. How have they done? That is NOT praying in faith. Nor can anyone pray in faith for someone they are critical of like President Obama. The Bible is quite clear about being critical of those in authority. Do not do it, even in your thoughts.

The goings on in the church, today? Some of the things you mention are good. Fundamentalist Christian values prohibit dancing. Yet, David danced before the Lord with all his might. There is nothing wrong with dancing in worship. As a matter of fact, dancing as a form of worship to the true God has a long, long heritage. It dates at least back to the Israelite exodus from Egypt, when Miriam, the sister of Moses, led some of the women of Israel in dance (Ex. 15:20). However, just because David danced does not mean that people have to dance. But neither should we prohibit any function shown as acceptable and worthwhile in Scripture.
I have no problem with dancing before the Lord. Making rules is the opposite of being led by the Holy Spirit as to modest and seemly behavior. If you have ever seen the sensuous dancing of some of the dance teams you would see a BIG difference.

Women preachers and how women dress I will not touch. Those are no win topics and wisdom is called for here.
This settles the issue very clearly:
1 Timothy 2:12-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

12And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
Pray, prophesy, used in all the spiritual gifts, teach younger woman and children, a prophetess, evangelist, all of proverbs 31: 10-32 but not an elder/teacher as is quite clear. I am sure the spirit of Jezebel will respond to this as well as the fellow traveling Ahab spirit.
 
L

lesjude

Guest
#6
Wow...John was a man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, yet you basically say that he didn't not have enough faith in Jesus. How can you not see that you have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner?
No, I have simply put together what scripture says about what happened to John and why. The lessons apply to Christians today as they do get persecution for unscriptural reasons. When John said he must decrease it did not mean he was not to follow Jesus as His disciple and instead get involved with that Fox Herod. Please read the OP again as the scripture is very clear that John lost his revelation of who Jesus was.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#7
No, I have simply put together what scripture says about what happened to John and why. The lessons apply to Christians today as they do get persecution for unscriptural reasons. When John said he must decrease it did not mean he was not to follow Jesus as His disciple and instead get involved with that Fox Herod. Please read the OP again as the scripture is very clear that John lost his revelation of who Jesus was.
Perhaps it was John's disciples who were beginning to question and John posed the question on their behalf.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#8
"Pride that he could 'get it done' by getting involved in politics and casting pearls before swine had dire consequences. NOTHING has changed with Christians involved in partisan politics. By the way that was the Jezebel spirit in Herodias and her daughter that killed John. Do not wonder why 'she' has so much to say in today's churches. It is for the same the same reasons: female pastors, Christian women dressed like ****s, and the sensuous dance teams are some examples."

I believe some of your rants are not valid and I fail to see the connection with your primary thread and John being beheaded. Christians need to be involved in some political activity to have our collective voice heard in a society bent on every issue being made anti-Christian. All politics are partisan.

I agree with this position... frankly now more than ever Christians SHOULD be involved in politics...especially in America where we have a "professed" Democratic government structure instead of KINGS. Quite assuradly the systems are not the same... IMO... the attitude of overlying scripture regarding monarchy to apply to democratic structure is a deception of the enemy and creates apathy. Realistically speaking US government has become a corporate oligarchy BECAUSE the christian population is so busy playing CHURCH and MINISTRY the American society we live in is crashing down around our ears... yet God appointed us a christian nation from inception... and apathy causes to throw it all away. Yep... God will be chastening us... sure enough... Parabel of the light under a basket comes to mind.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#9
No, I have simply put together what scripture says about what happened to John and why. The lessons apply to Christians today as they do get persecution for unscriptural reasons. When John said he must decrease it did not mean he was not to follow Jesus as His disciple and instead get involved with that Fox Herod. Please read the OP again as the scripture is very clear that John lost his revelation of who Jesus was.

okay... i see your point better.
 
L

lesjude

Guest
#10
"Pride that he could 'get it done' by getting involved in politics and casting pearls before swine had dire consequences. NOTHING has changed with Christians involved in partisan politics. By the way that was the Jezebel spirit in Herodias and her daughter that killed John. Do not wonder why 'she' has so much to say in today's churches. It is for the same the same reasons: female pastors, Christian women dressed like ****s, and the sensuous dance teams are some examples."

I believe some of your rants are not valid and I fail to see the connection with your primary thread and John being beheaded. Christians need to be involved in some political activity to have our collective voice heard in a society bent on every issue being made anti-Christian. All politics are partisan.

I agree with this position... frankly now more than ever Christians SHOULD be involved in politics...especially in America where we have a "professed" Democratic government structure instead of KINGS. Quite assuradly the systems are not the same... IMO... the attitude of overlying scripture regarding monarchy to apply to democratic structure is a deception of the enemy and creates apathy. Realistically speaking US government has become a corporate oligarchy BECAUSE the christian population is so busy playing CHURCH and MINISTRY the American society we live in is crashing down around our ears... yet God appointed us a christian nation from inception... and apathy causes to throw it all away. Yep... God will be chastening us... sure enough... Parabel of the light under a basket comes to mind.
The US has NEVER had a democratic structure. I doubt most "good" Americans could even pass the basic civics test required for aliens to become citizens. Apathy! Legal and illegal drugs and popular culture plus the lies and spin of the main line news media induce coma with no help necessary. We let our lights shine by doing what Jesus said the way He said to do it. Not many seem to know or care doing "what is right in their own sight". You are right about playing church because the only similarity between the early NT church and today is purely coincidental. They were NEVER involved in the politics of the time except to be persecuted for doing and living the gospel.
Christian nation! Founded by deists, birthed in a rebellion with Christians killing Christians and the purveyor of filth. A murderous nation that fought a genocidal 'civil' war, the only nation to slaughter innocent civilians TWICE with totally unnecessary A bombs, and before that targeted civilians in both Germany and Japan with firebombing. And today do the same in two nations attacked illegally as a result of known government lies in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom' and you say this is a Christian nation. Really! It is in the name of drug money and oil the US is waging perpetual war under the 1984 slogan "war is peace". Maybe it is "if you do not do as we tell you we will bring 'democracy' to your nation". You cannot "get back" to a myth that never was!
There is no such thing as a Christian nation only Christians living in a nation being salt and light by living the principles of Matthew 5, 6, and 7, doing Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8, and changing hearts by bringing people into the Kingdom of God as disciples not church members.
Read this link because nationalism is just another false religious cult.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/40922-nationalism-religion.html
 
Last edited:
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#11
The US has NEVER had a democratic structure. I doubt most "good" Americans could even pass the basic civics test required for aliens to become citizens. Apathy! Legal and illegal drugs and popular culture plus the lies and spin of the main line news media induce coma with no help necessary. We let our lights shine by doing what Jesus said the way He said to do it. Not many seem to know or care doing "what is right in their own sight". You are right about playing church because the only similarity between the early NT church and today is purely coincidental. They were NEVER involved in the politics of the time except to be persecuted for doing and living the gospel.
Christian nation! Founded by deists, birthed in a rebellion with Christians killing Christians and the purveyor of filth. A murderous nation that fought a genocidal 'civil' war, the only nation to slaughter innocent civilians TWICE with totally unnecessary A bombs, and before that targeted civilians in both Germany and Japan with firebombing. And today do the same in two nations attacked illegally as a result of known government lies in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom' and you say this is a Christian nation. Really! It is in the name of drug money and oil the US is waging perpetual war under the 1984 slogan "war is peace". Maybe it is "if you do not do as we tell you we will bring 'democracy' to your nation". You cannot "get back" to a myth that never was!
There is no such thing as a Christian nation only Christians living in a nation being salt and light by living the principles of Matthew 5, 6, and 7, doing Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8, and changing hearts by bringing people into the Kingdom of God as disciples not church members.
Read this link because nationalism is just another false religious cult.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/40922-nationalism-religion.html
OUCH!!!!!!
 
L

lesjude

Guest
#12
All Rom 9:6-7 is saying is that just because one is from the line of Abraham that that doesn't qualifiy them to be part of Israel e.g. the Ishmaelites. Rather one had to be part of Israel by promise e.g. Isaac. So you have physical descendants by promise of God(natural birth through Isaac and Jacob) and those spiritual Israel through faith in God's Promised One.
Revelation 3:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Please click on the link and read:http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/40948-unregenerate-israel-christians.html