I would like to Dialog with a Seventh-day Adventist

john832 · May 12, 2014

Not only a living human...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Let's see what a living soul is...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Living:

H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

Yep, means alive.

Soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

A living soul is a creature that is alive and breathes for a living.

The word for soul is nephesh. Let's see if it is used anywhere else in the creation account...

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The word here for "hath life" is nephesh. Same word translated soul in Gen 2:7.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

creature: nephesh, a soul living in the waters.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

creature: nephesh, a soul living on land.

So God calls things that live in the ocean souls. Abalone, oysters and crabs are souls. Sharks, whales and tuna are souls.

Things that live on land are souls. Foxes, turtles and lizards are souls. Snakes, birds and skunks are souls.

All of these creatures were created before man and yet they are called souls.

Can a soul die?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Seems to me that you may want to do a little investigation as to what the Bible really says.

gamlet · May 14, 2014

TrevorL said:

I'm sorry I don't have a copy of this book. And I'm also not so familiar with that aspect of our history. But the teaching of the church is of a literal 1,000 years that the righteous will spend in heaven.

gamlet · May 14, 2014

Jackson123 said:

Do you mean that you can't change the literal meaning of a text? I'll take it that this is what you mean. (Please tell me if you don't mean this.) Now, what did Jesus mean by his words in Matthew 19:17, "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments"?

Now, previously I said that there were gaps in your theology (questions you couldn't answer). These gaps should lead you to consider other explanations. Theology is all about building a structure of thought that is consistent and harmonious in all parts. That is why we should consider all parts of Scripture that deal with a certain question and not stick with one verse alone and build a whole theology out of that one verse.

RachelBibleStudent · May 15, 2014

john832 said:

this is a classic example of scripture taken out of context...

in ezekiel God is not saying -anything- about whether there is an afterlife or not...he is talking about people being put to death on earth...

in the context God is saying that he does not put children to death for the sins of their parents...or vice versa...he puts only the sinner to death and only for their own sin...

Jackson123 · May 15, 2014

gamlet said:

Do you mean that you can't change the literal meaning of a text? I'll take it that this is what you mean. (Please tell me if you don't mean this.) Now, what did Jesus mean by his words in Matthew 19:17, "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments"?

Now, previously I said that there were gaps in your theology (questions you couldn't answer). These gaps should lead you to consider other explanations. Theology is all about building a structure of thought that is consistent and harmonious in all parts. That is why we should consider all parts of Scripture that deal with a certain question and not stick with one verse alone and build a whole theology out of that one verse.

I interpret literal.

gamlet · May 16, 2014

Jackson123 said:

But a literal interpretation of Matthew 19:17 would oppose the teaching of the whole Bible which says that we are saved by grace and not by keeping the law.

Laodicea · May 16, 2014

RachelBibleStudent said:

So the Bible says in those verses the soul that sins shall die, but you say no. So you are telling God He is wrong

RachelBibleStudent · May 16, 2014

Laodicea said:

the bible says in those verses that God will not put a person to death for the sins of someone else...each person will be punished for their own sin...

the verses are saying -nothing whatsoever- about whether or not there is an afterlife...

prove-all · May 16, 2014

I'm not a Seventh-day Adventist but do believe in all of Gods Sabbaths

the devil thats immortal will be in chains for ever and ever.
mortal beings will be consumed by fire and gone.

eternal here means that never ever will they be again.

if a tenager sins and dies, would God inflict pain for eternity on him?

prove-all · May 16, 2014

never heard of ellen white till now,i believe in Gods sabbath,just like paul did for years after Christ died,bet he did not know or follow ellen white eather

prove-all · May 16, 2014

yes man and animal are mortal breathing creatures,from dust back to dust.

we do has a spirit in us though

spirit in man
- this is not Gods holy spirit it's mans,
1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
- science calls it youre concience, they can't see, or feel, or understand it
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
- it's what imparts thought, it seperates mans brain from animals
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
- a recording of youre life returns to God, without youre body it knows nothing and it's not immortal or alive by itself
this spirit in man, combined with Gods Holy spirit makes man complete

gamlet · May 17, 2014

prove-all said:

Where'd you get the idea that the Devil is immortal?

john832 · May 19, 2014

RachelBibleStudent said:

It must be taken out of context, it doesn't agree with your ideas.

RachelBibleStudent · May 19, 2014

john832 said:

here is the whole chapter for everyone to see...you are obviously taking your verses out of context because the interpretation you are reading into those verses does not have anything to do with what the rest of the chapter is about...

18 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
‘The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— [SUP]7 [/SUP]if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, [SUP]8 [/SUP]if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, [SUP]9 [/SUP]if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother [SUP]11 [/SUP](though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, [SUP]12 [/SUP]oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, [SUP]13 [/SUP]he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, [SUP]16 [/SUP]or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, [SUP]17 [/SUP]he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. [SUP]18 [/SUP]As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [SUP]22 [/SUP]All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[SUP][k][/SUP]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? [SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

[SUP]30 [/SUP]“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [SUP]32 [/SUP]For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

TrevorL · May 22, 2014

Greetings Gamlet,

TrevorL said:

gamlet said:

I was interested in this section of the book because it gives an indication that many that joined in with the Millerite movement believed in the 1000 years kingdom upon the earth, and I agree with this understanding. Quoting a portion from page 478:

I have a sympathy towards these “British literalists”, because as I read the many prophecies that speak of the return of Jesus, they teach me that Jesus will sit upon the literal throne of David in Jerusalem, ruling over Israel and the nations for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

TrevorL · May 23, 2014

Greetings again Gamlet,

Another aspect of SDA teaching that I find both interesting, but difficult is their emphasis on 2300 days of Daniel 8. This has some connection with the events surrounding William Miller’s teaching concerning the 2300 day / years being fulfilled in 1843, later revised to 1844. It has been reported that William Miller was disappointed at the failure of any evident event happening in 1843 or 1844. It seems that only later did the SDAs decide that something had happened in heaven in 1844. As I understand this, the SDAs are to some extent derived from a faction of the Millerites. I have never understood what the SDAs now believe happened in 1844, as it seems to me obscure. I believe that there was nothing but completeness and perfection in heaven, and Jesus after his resurrection fully took up his role in heaven when he ascended to sit at the right hand of God, his Father.

In Chapter 23 of my copy of the SDA book “SDAs believe .. A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines” 1988, there is an exposition of “Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary” and one of the diagrams has the time period of 2300 day / years, starting in 457BC and ending in 1844 AD. Contrary to this view, I believe that the focus of Biblical events has to do with events upon this earth leading up to the establishment of the Kingdom upon the earth when Jesus will reign from literal Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days appears to be from the major event in the vision of Daniel 8 the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. "The Anchor Atlas of World History" states that Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews, a reversal of the events of AD70 that Jesus was speaking about.

The events of 1967 are an essential step to set the stage for further events prophesied, for example Zechariah 14, resulting in the complete cleansing of Jerusalem. The important vision of Isaiah 2 clearly depicts this outcome:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): "1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
The language of this prophecy speaks nothing of the complete destruction of the nations at the return of Jesus as is taught by the SDAs.

The power that God has over the elements, revealed recently in drought, fire, flood, storm and earthquake, and the shaking of the nations in the Middle East witness that the times of the Gentiles are drawing to conclusion. The political and religious rulers are antagonistic to the Jewish occupation of East Jerusalem and ignore the prophecy of Daniel 8 and the words of Jesus in Luke 21 and the testimony of the prophets.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is seated at the right hand of God the Father is soon to return and bring the times of refreshing and restitution of all things spoken by the prophets. He will replace the kingdoms of men with his righteous rule, when he sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem ruling over the house of Jacob and over the nations Psalm 8, Psalm 72, Jeremiah 3:17, Daniel 2:44, Matthew 5:34-35, Matthew 19:28, Luke 1:30-33.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Kind regards
Trevor

Daley · Aug 4, 2014

gamlet said:

My sincere apologizes for taking so long to respond. I was hoping that we could have a private discussion please. I will send you a private message.

Daley · Aug 5, 2014

Ok, what the heck, let me put this in the public forum since this is where you're giving the answers. I would like to know, and would like you to support this by quoting your church documents, what festivals, and what sabbaths are mentioned in Col 2:16. One of the main reasons I think the weekly sabbath is mentioned here is because the yearly sabbaths are already mentioned, and I wonder how SDAs deal with this because traditionally, I've heard some say the weekly sabbath wasn't a shadow and isn't being referenced here.

Below is a list of reasons I think the weekly sabbath is included as a shadow of Christ, and I would like gamlet to respond to them individually, using his church documents to show that his position is the official position of the church, because I have heard some contradicting opinions on this from Adventists. My mother herself is an adventist.

“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival (heortes) or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17 New King James Version)

“Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival (heortes), a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17 New International Version)

“"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. * * * Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:14, 16-17 King James Version)

The Greek word translated “holy day” at Colossians 2:15 in the King James Version is “heortes,” which means “festival, feast” or “feast day.” (W.E. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) This is the word used in the Bible for annual feasts such as the Passover (Luke 2:41; 22:1) and the feast of tabernacles (John 7:2). All annual Sabbaths were part and parcel of the annual feasts, and could not exist apart from them. For example, the feast (heortes) of unleavened bread included the Sabbaths which fell on the first and seventh days of this weeklong festival. (Leviticus 23:6-8) Heortes is the Greek term in the Greek Septuagint of the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament embracing all such annual Sabbaths. The “feasts [heortes] of the Lord” (Leviticus 23:4) include the Passover (Leviticus 23:5), the feast of unleavened bread (Leviticus 23:6-8), Pentecost (Leviticus 23:15-16, 21), the memorial of trumpets (Leviticus 23:24-25), the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27-32), the feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:34-44), and so on. Thus, when Paul mentioned the annual ‘holydays’ or ‘festivals’ (heortes), and the monthly ‘new moons’ at Colossians 2:16, he already included all yearly and monthly Sabbaths. There was nothing left for Paul to mean by “the Sabbath days” except the weekly Sabbath, because all the other Sabbaths were already mentioned as heortes (yearly sabbaths) and new moons (monthly Sabbaths).

The implication is that the Sabbath being described in Colossians 2:16 is the weekly Sabbath. When Paul here says “Sabbath days,” if he meant annual Sabbaths he was needlessly repeating himself. In that case he would be saying, ‘Let no one judge you regarding…an annual Sabbath, a new moon, or an annual Sabbath,’ a statement neither logical nor likely!

At Colossians 2:16 the expression “the Sabbath days” has the word “days” in italics because it was not there in the original Greek, but was added or supplied by the translator. Without the added word, the original King James reading would be, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of THE Sabbath.” This reading removes any doubt that Paul meant the seventh day, and is supported by the fact the very same word Paul used for the Sabbath at Colossians 2:16 is translated “THE Sabbath” at Matthew 28:1; John 5:9, 10, 16 and other places.

The expression “Sabbath days” at Colossians 2:16 is used 8 other times in the King James Version an in all eight it means the weekly Sabbath. (Matthew 12:5, 10, 12; Mark 3:4; Luke 4:31; 6:2, 9; Acts 17:2) In fact, the term “Sabbath days” is never used for any other day except the seventh day! In every case, not almost every case, but every case without exception, “Sabbath says” means the weekly Sabbath.

Sabbaton, the Greek word for Sabbath at Colossians 2:16, is translated “Sabbath” 60 times in the New Testament. The first 59 times it means the weekly Sabbath. (Matthew 12:1-2, 5, 8, 10-12; 24:20; 28:1; Mark 1:21; 2:23, 24, 27-28; 3:2, 4; 6:2; 15:42; 16:1; Luke 4:16, 31; 6:1-2, 5-7, 9; 13:10, 14-16; 14:1, 3, 5; 23:54, 56; John 5:9-10, 16, 18; 7:22-23; 9:14, 16; 19:31; Acts 1:12; 13:14, 27, 42, 44: 15:21; 16:13; Acts 17:2; 18:4) How strange that for Sabbath-keepers the word “Sabbath (sabbaton)” means the Sabbath 59 times but the 60[SUP]th[/SUP] time it don’t! Such an interpretation goes contrary to the consistent linguistic use of the word in the Gospels as a reference to the weekly Sabbath, but this is the only way they can save the Sabbath from Paul’s list. Obviously, Sabbath means the same thing in Colossians 2:16 as it means in the other 59 places were the word occurs. In fact, the New Testament never uses sabbaton for any yearly or monthly holydays! All Gospel writers used sabbaton EXCLUSIVELY for the weekly Sabbath!

Daley · Aug 5, 2014

Given the information just presented, and more could be added, how do SDAs explain Colossians 2:16-17 in light of this information?

JesusLives · Aug 5, 2014

Originally Posted by Jackson123

Brother Gamlet,

Your doctrine about hell is base of the assumption that the word for ever and ever mean temporary, the word eternal mean temporary.

When there is a verse in the bible that heaven is eternal then you interpreted as forever and ever.

Don't you think it is discrimination?

About Jude, the writer use Sodom and Gomorrah in this verse as analogy

Analogy not prove anything. Analogy is only tool to make easier for the reader to understand.

Jude 1:7Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Jude 1:7.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In my opinion this is an analogy. The people there doing fornication etc than God punish them. Is the punishment temporary?

We can't prove that they not being punish anymore. They body burn than die, but they soul is still in waiting for second punishment. And I am sure they soul will be punish in the eternal fire exactly like the verse above.

For example, Mr X is a rapist and found guilty in the court than Judge pronounce death sentence.

So Mr x was shot to death.

Do you believe that is the only punishment for Mr X only physical punishment that took 5 minute?,

Do you think a fire brimstone is the only punishment for people in Sodom? How about their soul?

gamlet said:

I believe as brother Gamlet that once hell fire consumes the wicked that the fire will go out and the main reason I believe that is the verses below because how can the wicked be ashes under our feet unless they are destroyed and the fire has gone out?

Malachi 4 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
4 “For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up,” saith the Lord of hosts, “that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves from the stall.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,” saith the Lord of hosts.

I would like to Dialog with a Seventh-day Adventist

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