Your articles are basically...
1. They devoted themselves to God too much.
2. They had a big problem with gay people that they didn't have before.
3. There was a guy who was upset because his friends would worship, but didn't ask him how he was doing.
4. There was a guy who was lead incorrectly and rather than be corrected in love, thought himself higher than himself.
5. A couple people didn't agree with Mike's interpretation of Scripture so they said he was lying in front of thousands of people and other people didn't agree with their interpretation.
This is my basic summary of your sources. All of these things can be said about any church unfortunately.
It's fine, if you think this is a life producing topic than carry right on. I don't feel like it is, but I also don't have as close involvement as you do, if you have indeed been there.
But I have seen people's emotional agenda pull out stories from 2 yrs in the past before because of something they don't agree with they look for anything to back them up. That's what I felt this thread was accomplishing.
And as I've said, I don't have a ton of knowledge about this. I don't know Mike personally, I don't know what he teaches, I haven't been to IHOP, but I do know people who have been there and have only positive things to say.
I have personally met ministers that people think are "heretical" which has become the religious way of saying my theology interpretations are right and theirs aren't. I have met these men of God, seen their heart, seen their devotion to God and people, and then seen other people who slander them because they don't understand a few things.
I'm not saying this is you, but I am saying that its very easy to criticize. I know many people who don't agree with the things I teach, but usually people who know me personally and have done life with me, start to understand my heart, and why I believe the things I do.
I'd like to see more counterbalance to what good IHOP is doing, if you are okay with sharing good things, and praying for the people that you think are in gross error, then I think that's a good model for us to follow that has an agenda of love.
And I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, as really I am attacking the thought process of arm chair criticism. Which says I know better than you do, even though you've spent your entire life dedicated to God and the church, while I sit on forums or amongst my friends and speak bad things.
For instance, I have always thought deliverance should be done a certain way, but then I started meeting people who are in the trenches doing it week after week, year after year. Sure I might not agree, but I need to honor their life of dedication. And I curbed my "Scriptural interpretation" and started to be open to them. I still don't agree on everything they do, but my communication about them has certainly changed.
You seem like a very honest person and I have nothing against you. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt. The Holy Spirit will guide you as He wills.
C.
Warning: LONG (lol)
Our culture tends to demonize the victim or anyone who admits, “Look, I’m not having fun anymore.” I reported what people have experienced and witnessed firsthand at IHOP; to say they’re just somehow mistaken is the product of our loveless society. I have been connected to IHOP in Atlanta, yes, via the Atlanta Vineyard which I used to attend and where at least one of the pastors was accused of sexually abusing at least one of the daughters of a friend of mine in the church. Her husband thought she was crazy, because our culture molds people to reject anything that says, “Look, I’m not having fun anymore.” This isn’t just a two-year old story but a daily story; like the moon, it is ever present but is only visible at certain times of the day (so to speak).
The people I have personally known who have positive things to say about IHOP, Bethel Church in Redding, CA, etc. are people of a very disturbed character. Some of them are young and naïve, but the ones who’ve been there long enough take on a poisonous nature. However, you have to put their character next to certain psychological suggestions (personality profiles) or else you will probably totally miss it. For example, we’ve all heard about the Jezebel spirit (which operates unrestrained in these poisoned and bitter churches and which was at operation in Tyler Deaton); you cannot kow a person is functioning in this spirit unless you know the traits of this spirit. But for those who need help, the secular world has also recognized this ‘spirit’ and has given it several names one of which is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. If you meet such a person, you will naturally miss it because it is pervasive in our society; but you won’t miss it if you put the person next to a symptoms checklist of the spirit or ‘disorder’.
Accusing and condemning people is widespread and too easy; I naturally am drawn to a challenge (doing things differently) not to what is easy. Even if I wasn’t a Christian, I’m still lucid enough to know that there is little progress without unity; and I’m progressive-minded and so must necessarily seek unity and togetherness, not to tear down this person and that ministry. Only fools (the blind) do such a thing thinking that they will be justified before God even if they were correct. But unity has to be in the Spirit (literally, ‘within one house’: Ps. 133; like-spirited in Jesus Christ and so drawn together in Him) and not because we happen to believe and like the same things which is a unity built on sand that will effervesce when the hot sun of trial and hardship fully breaks over the horizon. (Do you think these signs and wonders seeking churches will hold together when the churches come under persecution. Do you believe they really care about each other. If you do, it is necessary that you grab a dictionary and define some words (such as ‘love’ and ‘unity’), that you google poisonous personality profiles, and that you re-consult with your Bible for what Jesus says about the last days—that the Christian Love of Christians will grow cold.)
It’s not about those who agree or disagree with what you teach. In Jn. 2:23-25, Jesus wouldn’t take into His confidence (receive or trust) those who agreed with what He taught, because He knew people’s hearts (the ones who praised Him at the triumphal entry not long after were shouting,
“Crucify Him!” Some movie, music, and other stars believe their audiences love them and then later realize that their audience doesn't care for them but their entertainment (and their facade); this causes some of them to go into depression, commit suicide, some to get into drugs, some into all kinds of self-destructive behaviors (we see them on TV and hear about them often). But if you know the heart of people, you don’t have to take them in (trust them) when they agree with your teachings and throw them out when they don’t; that way, your rise and fall won't be based on others. So, it isn’t about good intentions in the heart when it comes to teaching;
it’s about the integrity of God’s Word and walking in that, then letting ‘whosoever will’ to come and ‘whosoever won’t’ to go away and save you trouble. It’s about God’s heart (Nature) and
His good intentions and faithfulness and ability to keep His Word;
we don’t have the power, and usually don’t have the goodness, to be good (not even with good intentions) nor are we faithful (trustworthy); but God is, and so it’s about how people view Him, not how people view us:
“Why do you say, oh Jacob, and complain, oh Israel, ‘My way is hidden from the Lord, and my cause is disregarded by my God (i.e. "God doesn’t understand my struggles,
and He hasn’t dealt with me in the integrity of His Word")
’?... Even youths [have a limit on ability] and young men [must eventually fail and admit inability]. But those who wait on the Lord (who believe/trust in God)
will renew their strength (will draw from/experience His ability)
; they will mount up on wings like eagles (God will set them higher (favor) than others)
; they will run and not grow weary (supernatural ability and energy
in ministry like Paul:
“I labored more than they… not I but the Grace of God in me”)
, they will walk <with God>
and not faint (He will support them)
” (40:27-31). God deals only in integrity; but if someone disagrees or agrees with what you teach, it isn’t about what you teach or your good intentions; it’s about what God has taught and His goodness (
His ability to do good and not just intend it).
As for praying for IHOP (etc.), that’s the Lord’s problem, and He will lead people accordingly. I was praying for fallen pastors in a small church (and we know that the bigger the ministry/power, the greater corruption likely: “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”) and the Lord told me to stop praying for them. It sounded like Him, but I was of the belief that God is always telling us to ‘do ministry’ and ‘do good’; He isn’t. He showed me two passages to prove that He was the One telling me not to pray for Christians:
1.
“If you see a brother or sister committing a sin that doesn’t lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying to pray about that” (1Jn. 5:16). John is talking about praying for and desisting from praying for
Christians, discerning correctly who to pray for and who to leave alone (
“hating even the garment stained by the flesh”—Jude 1:23). When we pray for those we shouldn't pray for, we are in sin and aren't the good people we think ourselves to be.
2. After King Saul rebelled (not just sinned, but
rebelled), refusing to obey and submit to God, God rejected him as king. Samuel, his father in the Lord, was very grieved about this; we can safely surmise that he prayed about it afterwards. (We know he prayed about it when God first told him He’d rejected Saul (1Sam. 15:10-11).) After delivering the word, Samuel continued to grieve, but God said to him,
“How long will you mourn for Saul since I have rejected him as king?” God told him to change the focus of his ministry from Saul to David, a king who would actually do God’s will. (1Sam. 16:1.)
I am not going to waste time praying for people who aren’t just deceived but who actually love being deceived and refuse the truth but teach against it (many of these Charismatic leaders). However, God have mercy on the innocently deceived among their followers. I used to be one of them.
I understand what you’re saying about the danger of sitting back and condemning people in the field trying to do God’s work. I’ve done that before when I didn’t understand this passage:
“Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveals the counsels (motives) of the heart” (1Cor. 4:5). That basically means that while you go about judging (i.e. discerning which is natural),
do not pass a final sentence until the Lord comes (until He speaks to you, gives you clarity or discernment on it). My judgment about the pastors I mentioned above was that they were just wayward…
until the Lord came who told me they’ve chosen apostasy and will not repent. It’s not wrong to judge (have an opinion about something), but it’s unwise to pass a final sentence when the Lord hasn’t told you a fuller or whole story. Regarding deliverance ministries (and every other ministry), it’s important to distinguish between
lack and
disobedience. Lack is just when there is little or not enough revelation on how ministry is to be done which happens very often (e.g. Paul said,
“[This revelation] was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed”—Eph. 3:5); there needs to be Grace there. But disobedience is when the ministry/minister isn’t ‘doing it right’ because they are rebellious and don’t want to walk obediently with God,
not because they lack revelation. God knows already who will walk with Him and who won’t; we, in the meantime, have to depend on Him to navigate what is of Him and what isn’t. That is our responsibility, and that’s where God’s Word (the Bible) is able to
effortlessly distinguish every little thing, even between differing measures of righteousness and wrong (i.e. God’s Word isn’t just black and white; it also distinguishes every variation of color and character beyond the outward personality, and we know there are thousands of them).
“God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are His’ and ‘Everyone who confesses the Name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness’” (2Tim. 2:19).
