Jesus Is God and is I AM
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Okay, we are created in God's image are we not. Come let us make man in our own image. Who is us? We have a mind, body and spirit, that's 3 in one. Everything around you is 3 in one. the house you are in the computer you are typing on is 3 in one. All things were built with 3 things. Wisdom, knowledge, and prudence. Prudence being the act of wisdom and knowledge. Here we have the trinity.
Father...... wisdom
The Son..... Knowledge
Holy Spirit.... Prudence.
And together they are love.
Father...... wisdom
The Son..... Knowledge
Holy Spirit.... Prudence.
And together they are love.
There is no single term in the Bible that denotes this doctrine. It is purely a matter of formal belief and politics. Considering this, the doctrine states to the effect that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each without a beginning, have existed for an eternity, uncreated, and equal. In other words, each is neither greater nor lesser than the other.
Considering this definition, John 1:1 is therefore contradictory because someone who is with another person cannot be the same as the other person at the same time; and, the “spirit” is not a person even though it may be personified in the bible. Most importantly, the translation is not grammatically correct. The ancient Koine Greek did not use indefinite articles such as “a” and “an.” English grammar requires the use of these articles for the proper context and meaning is understood. In other word, the grammatically correct translation should be rendered: “…the Word was a god.” The indefinite articles are inserted before “god” in Acts 12:22; 28:6. In comparison, several other scriptures that are grammatically and structurally the same are translated with such indefinite articles. See Mark 6:49; 11:23; John 4:19; 6:70.
At John 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”
At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”
The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:
1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.
1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.-Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.
Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”-The Simple English Bible.
Considering this definition, John 1:1 is therefore contradictory because someone who is with another person cannot be the same as the other person at the same time; and, the “spirit” is not a person even though it may be personified in the bible. Most importantly, the translation is not grammatically correct. The ancient Koine Greek did not use indefinite articles such as “a” and “an.” English grammar requires the use of these articles for the proper context and meaning is understood. In other word, the grammatically correct translation should be rendered: “…the Word was a god.” The indefinite articles are inserted before “god” in Acts 12:22; 28:6. In comparison, several other scriptures that are grammatically and structurally the same are translated with such indefinite articles. See Mark 6:49; 11:23; John 4:19; 6:70.
At John 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”
At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”
The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:
1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.
1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.
1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.-Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.
Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”-The Simple English Bible.
Baloney,
Those Jews listening to Jesus in their original language knew exactly what Jesus was indicating...
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(Joh 5:18)
Besides your assessment of John 1:1 is refuted by 99 percent of reputable Greek scholars. Are you a JW?
Those Jews listening to Jesus in their original language knew exactly what Jesus was indicating...
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(Joh 5:18)
Besides your assessment of John 1:1 is refuted by 99 percent of reputable Greek scholars. Are you a JW?
D
...That doesn't really prove any thing. He said "I am." But he didn't declare himself as the great I Am. Just as I can say I am. I am what? I am alive. I am a Christian. Just taking the two words spoken in that order doesn't mean it can be taken the same way they are somewhere else. Jesus always declared himself as the Son of God. I descend from my father, & let's say his last name is Smith. He's a Smith & so am I. But we're not the same being. Yes, the word was made flesh. Yes, the word was with and was God. But the Bible never said that "Jesus is God." Jesus and God are one, but they're not the same. The Bible speaks of marriage as man and woman becoming one. But that doesn't mean that man is woman and woman is man.
T
Saying, "I Am" denotes that his identity isn't tied to anything, he is God. God defines everything there is. Evil is an absence of God's goodness. Grace is God's undeserved love. We are God's children. People are God's creations. I am my dad's son and my uncle's nephew. But God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He gives life and sustains everything in creation. Apart from him, we're nothing. So, by saying, "I Am", Jesus is declaring that God is his Father but that he shares in a perfect relationship with him and that he himself is God.
D
That's just taking Jesus's words out of context. If Jesus were say "I am happy." You wouldn't take that as him declaring that he was God. So is it with this passage in the Bible, except there were no words between "I am" and the end of the sentence. If Jesus wanted us to worship him as being God himself he would have commandd us to do so. But no, Jesus is God's son. Now being his son, he does have all of his father's attributes. But he isn't his father. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the father, the son, and the holy spirit. But I do not believe they are the synonomous. The Holy Spirit is God's nature & Jesus is son.
T
Jesus is God's Son and God. Father, Son and Spirit are all God. God is Spirit. Jesus came to Earth to show us God in human form, someone we could relate to but still worship but was still God. The Holy Spirit is God's messenger living in believers and working amongst us to grow us to be more like Christ. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three persons but one God. I'm not taking the Bible out of context. That's what it means when you read those verses in context with the surrounding chapters and the books to which they belong.
That is not true.
The belief that Jesus is the Son of God is the definition of a Christian surely
Surely a Christian is someone then who knows that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God."
It is certainly true that most Christians agree with your statement though - just not all
I think all Christians are covered by the Apostles' creed. But not all agree with the Athanasian creed.
The belief that Jesus is the Son of God is the definition of a Christian surely
Surely a Christian is someone then who knows that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God."
It is certainly true that most Christians agree with your statement though - just not all
I think all Christians are covered by the Apostles' creed. But not all agree with the Athanasian creed.
The passage reported to say that Jesus called himself God actually says, as an alternative translation, that Jesus was saying he was more important than Abraham. That is what made the Jews want to stone him I think. They revered Abraham as much as Moses and such a statement would be considered blasphemy.
Just as a matter of interest, shortly after (the next chapter) we have
I've used the KJV because they put in grey the words that are NOT in the original texts. I've made the grey very faint to highlight the issue.
So the beggar says the same Greek phrase (ego eimi) but is not assumed to be calling himself God.
Those who think John 8:58 is Jesus saying he is God are applying their own wishful thinking on the verse
This is not meant as a disproof of the trinity of the deity of Christ. Not at all.
But this verse does not say what people have been taught to believe it says.
Just as a matter of interest, shortly after (the next chapter) we have
I've used the KJV because they put in grey the words that are NOT in the original texts. I've made the grey very faint to highlight the issue.
So the beggar says the same Greek phrase (ego eimi) but is not assumed to be calling himself God.
Those who think John 8:58 is Jesus saying he is God are applying their own wishful thinking on the verse
This is not meant as a disproof of the trinity of the deity of Christ. Not at all.
But this verse does not say what people have been taught to believe it says.
You set yourself up well to reject what anyone tries to get you to reason on, anyway. "yet knowing that even with proof of scripture some people will not accept it as truth or proof."
That is in no way an open-minded approach. Therefore I will leave to yourself.
But for saying, learn to really understand translation. (In both the Hebrew and the Greek).
That is in no way an open-minded approach. Therefore I will leave to yourself.
But for saying, learn to really understand translation. (In both the Hebrew and the Greek).