John 1:1 Why Jesus was God, but not the Father

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#21
John 1:1

the beginning: Joh 1:2; Gen 1:1; Pro 8:22-31; Eph 3:9; Col 1:17; Heb 1:10, Heb 7:3, Heb 13:8; Rev 1:2, Rev 1:8, Rev 1:11, Rev 2:8, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13

the Word: Joh 1:14; 1Jo 1:1-2, 1Jo 5:7; Rev 19:13

with: Joh 1:18, Joh 16:28, Joh 17:5; Pro 8:22-30; 1Jo 1:2

the Word was: Joh 10:30-33, Joh 20:28; Psa 45:6; Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6, Isa 40:9-11; Mat 1:23; Rom 9:5; Phi 2:6; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:8-13; 2Pe 1:1 *Gr: 1Jo 5:7, 1Jo 5:20
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#22
John 1:1

the beginning: Joh 1:2; Gen 1:1; Pro 8:22-31; Eph 3:9; Col 1:17; Heb 1:10, Heb 7:3, Heb 13:8; Rev 1:2, Rev 1:8, Rev 1:11, Rev 2:8, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13

the Word: Joh 1:14; 1Jo 1:1-2, 1Jo 5:7; Rev 19:13

with: Joh 1:18, Joh 16:28, Joh 17:5; Pro 8:22-30; 1Jo 1:2

the Word was: Joh 10:30-33, Joh 20:28; Psa 45:6; Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6, Isa 40:9-11; Mat 1:23; Rom 9:5; Phi 2:6; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:8-13; 2Pe 1:1 *Gr: 1Jo 5:7, 1Jo 5:20
That does seem to all add up. You are going to be surprised when I finally get around to sharing with you how we can know with absolute certainty how John 1:1 must be worded if properly understood.

I am too tired tonight to do so but I will get around to it.

The wonderful thing in the construction of the scripture is that nothing, not even the way it is worded in it's native language, exists independently from huge sections of other scriptures which clearly tell us what the one we focus on to translate is saying so that we can know the proper exegesis by seeing how what the Bible itself handed to us so perfectly fits without ever having to have guessed at it or struggled.

God interwove it like keys to unlatch proper exegesis. It is truly amazing as he took all need away for personal interpretation, even at the level of translation. Once one figures that out and learns how to use that built in asset of the scriptures, then and only then can than know that they have God's unadulterated word and not their own corruption of it.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#23
Look forward to it. :)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#24
Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#25
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it as the definite article and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

From: Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism

So is your church teaching you the truth about the Bible, or has it twisted this essential verse which tells us that Jesus was God, and yet a different person than the Father??
The long debates about Jesus being God has always confused me, in the end I came to the conclusion that Jesus IS God but not God The Father......I am a simple man so I put this understanding down to The Holy Spirit teaching me this which I firmly believe.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#26
Your conclusion is correct, Greybeard. The debates occur because Hebrew lacks a word for "god" that does not specify "God the Father" or does not also mean "human authority". One thus cannot say in Hebrew that "Jesus is God" and say it correctly. This problem is what motivated the specific words used in John 1 in the OP. Since the Catholic church tried to remove the Jewish Christians from history after the fall of Jerusalem in the early days, there is much animosity both ways against the Hebrew only theology, and the Greek only theology. This results in a lot of debate over precise translation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#27
That does seem to all add up. You are going to be surprised when I finally get around to sharing with you how we can know with absolute certainty how John 1:1 must be worded if properly understood.

I am too tired tonight to do so but I will get around to it.

The wonderful thing in the construction of the scripture is that nothing, not even the way it is worded in it's native language, exists independently from huge sections of other scriptures which clearly tell us what the one we focus on to translate is saying so that we can know the proper exegesis by seeing how what the Bible itself handed to us so perfectly fits without ever having to have guessed at it or struggled.

God interwove it like keys to unlatch proper exegesis. It is truly amazing as he took all need away for personal interpretation, even at the level of translation. Once one figures that out and learns how to use that built in asset of the scriptures, then and only then can than know that they have God's unadulterated word and not their own corruption of it.
but isn't there a few unique expressions that Paul uses in the nt where only the Greek brings out the meaning because they are not used elsewhere?
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#28
I wouldn't necessarily say John 1.1 is contested per se, but then again... what part of Scripture isn't? As I have argued in the past, there is "proof in the pudding." If John wanted to portray the Logos as "a god," or "a divine one," he certainly had several methods of unambiguously doing so. Though, this is not comprehensive, one of the methods John could have used to clearly portray the Logos as “a god” would have been through placement of the verb ἦν before the anarthrous predicate(ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς [“the Word was a god”]), compare with Acts 28.6 and John 1.6, and the placement of the verbs in each passage,

(a) αὐτὸν εἶναι θεόν (Acts 28.6, “he was a god”)

(b) Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος (John 1.6, “There was a man”)

(c) ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς (“the Word was a god”)

Alternatively, while Koine Greek does not possess an indefinite article, John could have even used εἷς, which can, and does at times function as an indefinite article, (see Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature states, “εἷς can mean exactly the same thing as the indefinite article” [pg. 231]) in order to indicate that “the Word was a god,” or “the Word was one of the gods,” see Matthew 8.19, Matthew 26.69 (μία, nominative singular feminine of εἷς), Revelation 8.13 (ἑνὸς, genitive singular masculine of εἷς), et al. That, or John could have made use of the indefinite pronoun τις to indicate that the Word was “a certain” god, but not the one he was referring to in John 1.1b (c.f. Mark 14.51, Luke 8.27, Luke 1.5, and Luke 11.1).

So, while there are other methods (and this is by no means a comprehensive list) John could have used to portray indefiniteness, the same cannot be said, however, should John had wanted to portray the Logos as One who is distinct from God the Father (John 1.1b), while maintaining that the Logos shares, or possesses all the qualities which make God (“the God” of John 1.1b included), God, so that there is no ontological shift between the Father, and the Word.

Since John 1.1, and John 1.14 both have the same grammatical structure (anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb), and they occur so closely together, John intends us to take them as parallel in meaning, being semantically identical to one another,

(a) θεὸς ἦν (John 1.1, anarthrous predicate noun θεὸς preceding the verb ἦν)

(b) σὰρξ ἐγένετο (John 1.14, anarthrous noun σὰρξ preceding the verb ἐγένετο)

While John1.14 describes the incarnate nature of Christ, in that He possesses all the fleshly attributes, and qualities of Man; John 1.1 describes Christ’s pre-incarnate nature, insomuch that He possesses all the attributes, and qualities of God. The Word became human, not simply “a man.” The result of Christ being human is that He is a man, but that is not what the phrase is stating. It is not referring to His membership in a class but rather His characteristics that He attained in the incarnation. With that being said, should John had wished to indicate to us that the Word “became a man,” he could have done so as he did eight verses earlier of John the Baptist,

John 1.6, EGENETO ANTHROPOS (“There came a man”)

Also, notice the verb placement as compared to the verb placement of John 1.14, SARX ENGENETO (“became flesh”). John's point is to emphasize the qualities of humanity that were added to the nature of the Word. The semantic connection of SARX (Q-d) to the semantic notion of THEOS (Q) is unmistakable in the discourse.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#29
If John wanted to portray the Logos as "a god," or "a divine one," he certainly had several methods of unambiguously doing so.
This was what I was hoping for in post 2. Of course, there is more that could be added for a truly "tight" proof. Very impressive. Did you study in Greece?