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J
Well, I've sent in two separate requests over the last two days via two different means to have my account here deleted, but I'm somehow still here, so I might as well deal with your ignorance before my account is eventually deleted. First of all, here's what Paul said in the passage that you referenced:
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Ephesians 2:15)
If this "law of commandments contained in ordinances" includes God's moral laws or specifically the Ten Commandments, then why did this very same Paul while writing to these very same Christians in this very same epistle go on to say:
Ephesians chapter 6
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise):
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
IOW, if Paul said in Ephesians 2:15 that all of God's Old Testament commandments were "abolished", then what the hell was he doing citing one of the Ten Commandments to these New Testament saints? Was Paul double-minded...or is it that people like you don't know what you're talking about? It's the latter, friend. The problem isn't that people who insist that God's moral law is still in place are "legalists", but rather that those who insist that they aren't are ignorant...and more often than not willfully ignorant. The New Testament epistles are LOADED with doctrine which was derived from the Old Testament. In all honesty, I wonder if many of you have ever even read the Bible.
Well, like I said, my account here will be deleted soon enough, but I thought that I'd make one last attempt to awake at least somebody from their stupor before I go.
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Ephesians 2:15)
If this "law of commandments contained in ordinances" includes God's moral laws or specifically the Ten Commandments, then why did this very same Paul while writing to these very same Christians in this very same epistle go on to say:
Ephesians chapter 6
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise):
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
IOW, if Paul said in Ephesians 2:15 that all of God's Old Testament commandments were "abolished", then what the hell was he doing citing one of the Ten Commandments to these New Testament saints? Was Paul double-minded...or is it that people like you don't know what you're talking about? It's the latter, friend. The problem isn't that people who insist that God's moral law is still in place are "legalists", but rather that those who insist that they aren't are ignorant...and more often than not willfully ignorant. The New Testament epistles are LOADED with doctrine which was derived from the Old Testament. In all honesty, I wonder if many of you have ever even read the Bible.
Well, like I said, my account here will be deleted soon enough, but I thought that I'd make one last attempt to awake at least somebody from their stupor before I go.
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You are not under the ''moral law unto righteousness, that along with everything else is being referred to in that respect in Eph2:15.
The moral law got transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts. Because it did, Christ paid the price of your imperfections concerning those laws(your sin) at Calvary.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones... 2Cor3:7
The ''moral law'' was written on tablets of stone, and that is the ministration of death, where righteousness is obtained by obedience to it
The moral law got transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts. Because it did, Christ paid the price of your imperfections concerning those laws(your sin) at Calvary.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones... 2Cor3:7
The ''moral law'' was written on tablets of stone, and that is the ministration of death, where righteousness is obtained by obedience to it
J
Speak for yourself, friend.
God's commandments don't "condemn me" in the least. In fact, I rejoice in keeping the same via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
God's commandments only "condemn" the unregenerate in that "the law is spiritual" and those who are void of the Spirit of God can never keep God's commandments. For those of us who have been "circumcised in the spirit", however, God's commandments are not the least bit grievous.
God's commandments don't "condemn me" in the least. In fact, I rejoice in keeping the same via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
God's commandments only "condemn" the unregenerate in that "the law is spiritual" and those who are void of the Spirit of God can never keep God's commandments. For those of us who have been "circumcised in the spirit", however, God's commandments are not the least bit grievous.
J
Actually, while Paul was on trial because of his faith in Christ, he not only quoted the torah, but also repented based upon what it teaches:
Acts chapter 23
[1] And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
[2] And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
[3] Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
[4] And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
[5] Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Of course, here is where "it is written":
"Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." (Exodus 22:28)
That's just one of many examples which I could give to show that you don't know what you're talking about. Some (a lot) of you really ought to just log off of your computers and go and spend some serious time in humble repentance before the Lord and in a sincere rereading (if you've ever read them to begin with) of your Bibles.
Acts chapter 23
[1] And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
[2] And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
[3] Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
[4] And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
[5] Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Of course, here is where "it is written":
"Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." (Exodus 22:28)
That's just one of many examples which I could give to show that you don't know what you're talking about. Some (a lot) of you really ought to just log off of your computers and go and spend some serious time in humble repentance before the Lord and in a sincere rereading (if you've ever read them to begin with) of your Bibles.
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E
spoken like a true person blinded by his own righteousness.
Gods demand is that you obey his law 100 %, failure to do so causes condemnation.
as james said, if we break even the least of all Gods commands, we are found guilty of the whole law.
what is the penalty of sin (breaking the law)? Death.
you need to study more my friend.
Gods demand is that you obey his law 100 %, failure to do so causes condemnation.
as james said, if we break even the least of all Gods commands, we are found guilty of the whole law.
what is the penalty of sin (breaking the law)? Death.
you need to study more my friend.
Torah was never forced upon Gentiles in the NT to be followed. Any forcing of any other requirement but love of Christ upon the Gentiles was opposed by the apostles as a rule! There are multiple examples to this in the Bible, circumcision, respect of days and feasts, pagan sacrifices which they had freedom in Christ to eat should they find themselves in circumstances to (maybe someone was already unequally yoked). If Paul and the apostles were Torah observant, they were Jews, not Gentiles, and also alongside Jesus, have the apostles not done what is unlawful to do like picking wheat and eating, on sabbath day... And Jews might be quite another thing, I'm not getting into what is commanded to them. The NT is full of anti-legalistic examples for the Gentiles though. Ordinances are not righteousness - do not be deceived.
Indeed, the NT church differentiated between Jew and Gentile as to which laws they were expected(or asked) to observe:
When they heard this(the leaders of the church), they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. [SUP]22 [/SUP]What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, [SUP]23 [/SUP]so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. [SUP]25 [/SUP]As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality
Acts 21:20-25
Three of the laws Gentiles were asked to observe incidentally are widely believed to have been to appease Pharisees who had become Christians
When they heard this(the leaders of the church), they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. [SUP]22 [/SUP]What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, [SUP]23 [/SUP]so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. [SUP]25 [/SUP]As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality
Acts 21:20-25
Three of the laws Gentiles were asked to observe incidentally are widely believed to have been to appease Pharisees who had become Christians
Yes, as on another place Paul emphasises that food sacrificed to idols cannot defile a man and it's not forbidden to eat.
Sexual immorality is not an ordinance though so that's not Torah, although some try to have it pass as Torah. Things relationship towards others are beyond Torah, they are love and they are kept by all disciples.
Sexual immorality is not an ordinance though so that's not Torah, although some try to have it pass as Torah. Things relationship towards others are beyond Torah, they are love and they are kept by all disciples.
I don't know, but if one self-identifies as a law keeper, it makes sense to me that they would want to do those things...
I don't see them doing those things, so it puts a big question mark in my head...
I think the idea is that they do those things, but not legalistically... which, from what I can see
(and I mean this honestly... if a law keeper wants to clear this up, I'm interested),
means not doing them...
I don't see them doing those things, so it puts a big question mark in my head...
I think the idea is that they do those things, but not legalistically... which, from what I can see
(and I mean this honestly... if a law keeper wants to clear this up, I'm interested),
means not doing them...
B
Yeshua defeated death. Therefor the death require in Torah, for example breaking Sabbath or adultery, is no longer needed because Yeshua covered this.
(I'm not saying I believe in stoning, this is just an example)
On stoning someone, say someone committed adultery, according to Torah they are to be stone.
Well for that stoning to happen, 1 the only person who can authorize this is the High Priest/Levitical Priests. There are none of those around today, so already in that, a stoning cannot be held in todays society. 2 there has to be at least 2 witnesses, no witnesses no stoning. 3 you have which kind of goes back to the witness side of things, you have to have an accuser, if there is noone to accuse it, no stoning.
We can see this in the story when the Pharisees came to Yeshua with the adulterer and they asked Yeshua what to do with her. His reply, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." Slowly one by one the Pharisees left, therefor noone is left to accuse, there are no more witnesses. Yeshua forgives her, and tells her to turn from her ways.
So yes their is death in Torah, but to follow the death side of Torah would be to no accept what Yeshua did when He came and died for us.
I hope that explains it I guess
B
Are you saying I am condemned because I choose not to eat certain foods?
Are you saying I am condemned because I celebrate Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and Feast of Tabernacles?
Am I condemned because I keep Sabbath on Saturday?
These are things I choose to live my life by, It doesn't make me better than you or someone else, but I'm pretty sure I does not condemn me. Salvation is not found in Torah, condemnation is not in Torah either. Salvation is in Yeshua and Yeshua alone. It is up to the individual how they are to want to live their life, and if they choose to follow Torah it is not condemnation, if it is. Then you are saying that every Jew that has accepted Yeshua as the Messiah is still condemned because they keep Torah.
If you can explain your post better, I would like to hear/see that understanding.
E
no, I am not saying you are condemned, Unless your basing your salvation on doing those things. then I would seriously question your salvation.
However, if those things are what you base your christian life on. then I feel sorry for you, because christian life and a relationship with God is not based on those things, it is based on taking the love God has given to you and serving others.
However, if those things are what you base your christian life on. then I feel sorry for you, because christian life and a relationship with God is not based on those things, it is based on taking the love God has given to you and serving others.