Martin Luther - There's Something About Mary

[1still_waters]

Roman Catholics have this habit of giving high lofty titles and descriptions to something/people.
But then spending tons of time on how those lofty titles and words aren't so lofty.

They give her this title Queen of Heaven. Which sounds really BIG and important.
But then they write a treatise explaining that all it means is that the mother of a king was considered a queen, and so it's not really that important.

It's really quite a talent if you think about it.
Coming up with a lofty title/description, only to reverse engineer it into something not so important.

 

[JimJimmers]

People have been discussing these things for centuries. If this theological discussion disturbs you so, Jim, then I remind you that no one's forcing you to read, or write, or troll.

LOL, you've never seen trolling if you think that's trolling. I'd like to ask what made you think I was disturbed, although questions appear to bother you, so I'll leave you alone.

Just one quickie to leave you with though, is it true The Pope accidentally the whole thing?

 

[danschance]

There is something about Jesus and very little about Mary. End of story.

 

[crossnote]

Luther, like the Pope, or the Dalai Lamas, Zoroastrain teachers or Muslim scholars or atheists or scientists or Albert Einstein's abnormally large brain, has his own perception of the bible and religion, just like the approximate 42,000 denominations of Christianity, and the countless spin-offs of such, along with a seven billion people who relate different things to the bible, to Jesus, to religion and to God.

People are usually always so sure that their religion is correct, that they know the facts, or that they are walking the right path. Yet here we are, seven billion of us all walking slightly, or vastly, different paths.

People believe what they believe and 'know' what they know, really.

The whole state of being, of having conscious thought, is entirely, completely, immaculately subjective and that's what makes there few things that are true for all except, for one thing, that total subjectivity of thought itself.

Even this is my own view, that can be tangled, manipulated, twisted, taken in different context, redefined, swung, belittled and subjected to scrutiny.

See the problem?

Yes. Postmodernism is a big problem.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You make the same mistake, once again. Again confirming my point.

Look. By your logic then according to the following passages God would cease to exist, and Jesus would relinquish his throne once his enemies were subdued.

"I am till you grow old" (Isaiah 46:4).
Are we to infer that God would then cease to be once "you grow old"? Of course not!
Again, God says to His Divine Son: "Sit Thou on My right hand until I make Thy enemies Thy foot-stool" (Psalm 109:1).
Will the Messiah, once His enemies are subdued, relinquish His place of honor? Absolutely NOT, Rachel.

if your sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?

The examples could be multiplied, but you get the idea, Rachel—nothing can be proved from the use of the word "till" in Matthew 1:25.
Recent translations give a better sense of the verse: "He had no relations with her at any time before she bore a son" (New American Bible).

again you seem to have completely -ignored- what i actually argue in my post...i even used the example of michal myself in order to show that there are two kinds of uses of the word 'until'...

use of the word 'until' with reference to a final endpoint...such as the death of the person...or the end of time itself...does not indicate a change in state because it is understood that a change of state is impossible after that endpoint is reached...for example michal's childlessness...

using the word 'until' in connection with a non final reference point...such as a specific event during a person's life...indicates a change in state...for example mary's virginity before the birth of jesus...or my contemporary example of the pope's celibacy before his he became pope...

for whatever reason you are ignoring my hermeneutical explanation...which i have repeated here for the third time now...and making a 'straw man' argument...presenting 'counterexamples' that are already accounted for in my explanation...

i suggest you refrain from posting further responses until you actually understand what is being said...

 

[Andrew1]

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mat 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

hmm I wonder if James and Joses were Mary's kids? You see what you are doing is starting with the premise that the Catholic church is right, then interpreting the data accordingly. If you started with the premise that the plain reading of Scripture is right regardless of what the Catholic church says then you automatically come to the conclusion that Mary had other children besides Jesus by Joseph. In fact it would be impossible to come to any other conclusion except with a built in extra-biblical assumption.

 

[Maynard]

for whatever reason you are ignoring my hermeneutical explanation...

I did not ignore it at all, Rachel. I demonstrated it for what it is. Your so-called hermeneutical explanation argument is a logical fallacy.

 

[Katy-follower]

Luke 11: 24-28: “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first”............ And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Interesting that Jesus was speaking about demons and then this woman, mentioned here as "a certain woman," starts trying to elevate Mary who bore Jesus... but Jesus rebukes her.

Matthew 12:46-50: While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 1:24-25: "Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.And he called His name Jesus"


Mary actually had 4 sons (James, Joses, Simon & Judas) and daughters also (Matthew 13:55). Scripture mentions Jesus' sisters but does not give us names or say how many. It was actually normal for Jewish families to be large, and this is clear evidence that Mary consummated her marriage to Joseph. Not consummating the marriage would've been a sin anyway.

Are you saying Mary knowingly disobeyed God by never consummating her marriage to Joseph? Why would she not?

 

[MaranathaSoonQuick]

"I suggest you refrain from posting further responses until you actually understand what is being said..."

yes, that's good to keep in mind, even for myself.

 

[MaranathaSoonQuick]

46 And Mary said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He hath regarded the low estate of His handmaiden; for behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

yes, I call her blessed, but seeing as God is also her Savior, I don't think she is so high as to be able to forgive one of his sins, or since she's dead I don't think she needs to be prayed through to God, in fact we can pray directly to the Father,

26 In that day ye shall ask in My name, and I say not unto you that I will pray the Father for you;
27 for the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved Me and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[Markum1972]

Mystery Babylon: Mother of all Harlots

The Romans adopted many of the Pagan traditions of worship.

It may shock many that the worship of the mother and child began long before Jesus came to earth. Many religions today have their version of the mother and child worship. The mother is usually seen as a goddess of fertility and deemed sacred.

Other Babylonian worship was adopted as well. The worship of the sun for instance which is where it was said that Nimrod's spirit went to dwell.

Where is this mystery today?
It is not difficult to find for those that seek the truth on this.
It would be manifested as idolatry; fornication against God.
Fornication is whenever you bring another "lover" into the relationship and thus remove the exclusiveness of that relationship by not forsaking all others as it is written.

Most religions in the world that have adopted Babylonian practices are not considered "Christian" and thus are not as deceptive. Yet scriptures tell us that Satan deceives the whole world with the mystery of Babylon. So where is the deception within the "Christian" churches?

Let's take the worship of the mother and child first. The Romans sought to appease and assimilate the Pagans. They therefore adopted the worship of the mother and child (idol worship; fornication) into the Roman Catholic church saying that the mother and child would be called Mary and Jesus. The idols are easy to see today in the many graven images that have been erected throughout the earth.

Jesus, the apostles, and the church of Jesus' time observed the Sabbath to be just as it is written in scripture; the seventh day. To this day, the Jews still observe the 7th day (known as Saturday; the day of the Pagan god Saturn) as the Sabbath day. However, once again in order to appease the Pagans, the Roman Catholic church declared that the 1st day of the week (the day of Pagan sun worship) would be the "new" holy day as it had been previously known by the Pagans.

For some reason (associated with religious bindings), when I present this information (which you can research for yourself), some people want to debate which day we are supposed to worship on. I'm not going to enter that debate as it is written, "You choose THIS day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord." Whomever you serve, that is who you worship.

However, if God rested on the sixth day, that is the day that should be recognized (observed) as such. It is holy and not to be touched or changed by men. It astonishes me how many people say that they believe what is written in the scriptures, yet stumble when they hear this. Do not be a hypocrite. Study to show yourself approved. We are not to be conformed to this world (that includes the churches of men), but transformed by the renewal of our minds.

Grace and peace be to all of you through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[danschance]

I am offended by pictures of Jesus as a baby being cared for by His mother. It portrays Jesus as a weak helpless infant who needs His mother. That picture glorifies Mary and not Jesus.

Jesus is far from needing His mother. Even as a young boy he did not need his parents as evident when he stayed in the temple discussing things with priests who were nonplussed at His knowledge. Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords. He is so far from being a helpless little child.

Can you imagine portraying Prince Charles as a helpless baby in his mothers arms? Wouldn't that be insulting or at best silly? How about showing every US President half nude in his mother's arms being breast fed? Do you think any president would think that would be a good portrait? Absolutely not. Yet Catholics frequently do this and they feel it is actually a good thing to actually show Mary being in charge of Jesus the helpless cute fair skinned blue eyed baby.

How repulsive.

 

[danschance]

Luke 11: 24-28: “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first”............ And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Interesting that Jesus was speaking about demons and then this woman, mentioned here as "a certain woman," starts trying to elevate Mary who bore Jesus... but Jesus rebukes her.

Matthew 12:46-50: While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 1:24-25: "Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.And he called His name Jesus"


Mary actually had 4 sons (James, Joses, Simon & Judas) and daughters also (Matthew 13:55). Scripture mentions Jesus' sisters but does not give us names or say how many. It was actually normal for Jewish families to be large, and this is clear evidence that Mary consummated her marriage to Joseph. Not consummating the marriage would've been a sin anyway.

Are you saying Mary knowingly disobeyed God by never consummating her marriage to Joseph? Why would she not?

The bible briefly mentions the queen of heaven. It is a pagan belief and a demonic stronghold in many people. It is the worship of a the queen of heaven.

I have a good friend who went thru deliverance with me. She told me that everytime she tried to read a book she would fall asleep. So I purchased the book and read it. It was a book written on deliverance and it had a chapter on the queen of heaven. I got on line and told her I had read the book but did not see how it applied to her.

As we chatted on yahoo messenger, God told me a word "Athena". God revealed that one demon in her life was Athena. She was married in a city called Athens and in the center of this town they had a staute of Athena.



Her husband would just stare at thus statue and later even bought a similar statue. At times he would just stare at his statue. The wife had dozens of pictures of owls in her room. Even on facebook, her picture was an owl. She also had purchased a parrot shortly after being married and collected baby birds that fell out of the nest. She hand fed them, 5 of them and kept them as pets.

God showed me a rope made of two white cords and a third black cord. I understood this to mean that this demon "athena" had been taken a place in thier marriage that only God should have. She was married on Holloween by a man she knew was into occult junk. (She was not a Christian at the time) She knew how to deal with this and repented for what she had done and asked God to be the third cord in her marriage.

Then God told me she had an alter to Athena. The queen of heaven was worshipped by drink offerings of alcohol and raisin cakes. On my friends dresser she had an owl sculpture. In her dresser she kept a secret supply of sweets and some rum. She tossed the owl and owl pictures, the rum and sweets. Her husband's statue of Athena had an accident and broke "while she cleaned" the house. After all that was done and later became free of a demon called Athena.

There are many forms of this queen of heaven. The Catholics picture of Mary with baby weak, helpless Jesus is one of them.

 

[Markum1972]

There was one I heard of years ago. I don't remember her name but I do remember some of the details about her. She is known to appear and manifest as a the visage of a pure maiden to those that seek her and has been doing so for millennium. She was said to have the power to cause men to admire and revere her. To this day, people of many religions have reported to have seen the visage of <whatever name they have given her>. I have even heard this within the "Christian" churches of men. They call her Mary. Yet she is merely a seductive spirit that has similar power as the horn of the unicorn that also seduces so many.

From such things, we are to turn away.

 

[santuzza]

Martin Luther did not start my church. There have been Christian churches separate from the Catholic church ever since the Catholic church began. Luther was an interesting theologian, but his words (like the words of all other theologians) are subject to scrutiny through the prism of the Bible. Regarding this heresy about Mary, he was absolutely incorrect.

 

[jerusalem]

Matt12: 36-49 , Mark 6: 3-4 Luke 8: 19-21 Jesus had biological half brothers and sisters. He was Joseph's adopted son and Mary's biological son. Scriptures on the queen of heaven abound in scripture. she is asherah and worship in conjunction with the multitudinous gods/baal. in Acts 19: 23 -36 we see her described as artemis the great goddess worshipped throughout the world (see verse 27 ) her image was said to have fallen from heaven (verse 35 ) and was the source of much generated revenue particularly in sales of her handcrafted images for sale and worship

 

[danschance]

Matt12: 36-49 , Mark 6: 3-4 Luke 8: 19-21 Jesus had biological half brothers and sisters. He was Joseph's adopted son and Mary's biological son. Scriptures on the queen of heaven abound in scripture. she is asherah and worship in conjunction with the multitudinous gods/baal. in Acts 19: 23 -36 we see her described as artemis the great goddess worshipped throughout the world (see verse 27 ) her image was said to have fallen from heaven (verse 35 ) and was the source of much generated revenue particularly in sales of her handcrafted images for sale and worship

I am not sure about ancient beliefs. I believe Asherah or however you spell it, is under the umbrella of the queen of Heaven or as a minimum, this is how the demonic view it. Many goddesses fall under the queen of heaven. (I will list some of them later, if I can find that chapter on my kindle.) Even so, one thing is clear. The way some Catholics worship Mary is certainly is under the demonic the queen of heaven. Those who do, are sharing the glory of GOD with a goddess. Just look at the picture Maynard posted for proof.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Other Babylonian worship was adopted as well. The worship of the sun for instance which is where it was said that Nimrod's spirit went to dwell.

this is actually a misconception...to put it nicely...

there is no mention of nimrod in -any- ancient mesopotamian texts...they did worship the sun...but the location of nimrod's spirit was never suggested as a justification of sun worship...

i should also add that the early christians were already worshipping on sunday instead of saturday by the end of the first century AD...at least 100 years before constantine...and several hundred years before the emergence of a distinct 'roman catholic church'... the roman edict only made official what the christians had already been doing...and if anything the motivation was more to elevate christianity against judaism...not to elevate paganism...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I believe Asherah or however you spell it, is under the umbrella of the queen of Heaven or as a minimum, this is how the demonic view it. Many goddesses fall under the queen of heaven.

actually the queen of heaven referred to in the bible is much more specific than that...specifically that was the title of the canaanite goddess anath...this anath is connected with the egyptian goddess neith...and probably also the ancient greek goddess athena...

asherah on the other hand is a completely separate goddess identified with the babylonian ishtar and the greek venus and others... in babylon she was actually seen as the daughter of anath...

to put it in the most basic terms...anath was the war goddess...asherah was the fertility goddess...

 

[RickShafer]

It's all the same.
It amounts to the same ideology.
Astarta was the 'keeper of the walls' of Babylon.
In other words she was their keeper of safety.
Just another idol, but the motherly types go so much farther pursuant to "Momma keeping me safe".
Who loves you more than Momma?
- The Chaldean priests carried this idol straight into the newly incorporated Roman empire church.
- - Which happened to have "chistian' as it's moniker.