Narcissism: The Secret Weapon Against the Church

[Tethered]

Once had a person recommend making this subject of a personal development group discussion, she didn't return, so it didn't become one, but I looked into it anyway. It can be difficult to tell the difference between NPD and someone who has social forces that make the pretense of it an easy role to fit in (celebrities, business successes etc). Though I learnt NPD is something that can be diagnosed as the repeated history of a person. If you just have spouts of appearing so, it doesn't count.

 

[crossnote]

Ummm........ There are more narcissism cases in the world than there are in the church. Don't think theology itself is the problem.

Self love is a given in the fallen world...it's inbuilt into our bent nature. I thought you were asking about how christians of late are so full of themselves.

 

[Stephen63]

The Narcissist's Triangulation: The Prolific Gossip Narcissist

Ideally, if someone has a problem with another person, they go directly to that person to discuss it. However, that's just often not the case in a dysfunctional family. Some people do this without bad intentions because they have not recognized the habit or if they believe the person will become angry or violent if they communicate directly. However, this can be a favorite of a malignant narcissist that can get you in deep before you even realize what is happening.

Let's use Daughter, Mother and Aunt as an example. Daughter has done something Mother does not like, but instead of going to Daughter about it, Mother tells Aunt about it. Aunt listens to the gossip, then involves herself in the situation, creating the triangulation. The Mother's intentions may or may not be bad. It could be an old habit and she may not realize the damage she is doing unless it is pointed out to her. Daughter then does not have the opportunity to address the issue with Mother, as well as potentially having her reputation harmed with Aunt.

On the other hand, Malignant Narcissist Mother does this with evil intent and it goes something like this. Malignant Narcissist Mother just verbally assaulted Daughter because Daughter confronted NPD Mother about her lying about Daughter. However, when NPD Mother calls Aunt, she tells Aunt that Daughter just verbally assaulted her because sheconfronted Daughter about her lying (notice the flip, the projection of the bad behavior onto the victim). It appears to strip NPD Mother of her wrong and true victim Daughter of her virtue, killing two birds with one stone. NPD Mother then appears innocent of the abuse, damages Daughter's reputation with Aunt and an alliance is formed against the true victim. Aunt may very well believe she is doing the right thing and standing up for the innocent person even though she is unknowingly being deceived, used and manipulated. However, there are also family members who are willfully ignorant along the lines of being silent partners. Aunt becomes NPD Mother's flying monkey to do her dirty work and heap more abuse on Daughter for daring to confront NPD Mother about her lying. If you choose to confront a malignant narcissist, be prepared for the rage and revenge.

The gossip may also be thinly veiled as fake "concern" for Daughter, whom the Malignant Narcissist Mother just attacked after Daughter confronted Mother about her lying. In this scenario, the Malignant Narcissist Mother may lie by saying something (usually dripping with martyrdom), followed by fake concern. "I tried to be a good mother, but I am so worried about her irrational emotional state."

 

[Stephen63]

To the undiscerning, this sounds like a caring mother expressing concern about her daughter. It is gossip just the same, directed toward casting doubt on Daughter's stability. If we stand back and look at it, it is classic malignant narcissist behavior. The Malignant Narcissist Mother has held herself out as the innocent victim who must endure this irrational child (who is not being irrational at all, but responding normally to the verbal attack and abuse) and tarnished the reputation of true victim Daughter in the mind of Flying Monkey Aunt.
Malignant Narcissist Mother has also "explained" any upset emotions Daughter might display, so that Aunt will automatically attribute it to "irrational behavior" should she see Daughter. If Aunt is a well trained Flying Monkey Aunt, she will often turn around and give true victim Daughter a talk about treating her mother better! (Remember, the reality of what actually happened was Daughter confronted NPD Mother about lying about her in the first place!)
Do not underestimate the cumulative damage this can cause to your reputation and other relationships when a malignant narcissist mother repeats this stunt over a span of years. A malignant narcissist can completely destroy your relationships before you even realize what is going on.

Another version of this scenario often used by a malignant narcissist is to lie to BOTH parties about the other one. They use this to divide and conquer, even, or perhaps especially, among their own children. So they lie to Daughter about Son, then to Son about Daughter. If Daughter and Son are not wise to the tactics of Malignant Narcissist Mother, they will each be angry with or dislike the other based on the lie. When Malignant Narcissist Mother does this for months, years or decades it can end up severing the relationship between Daughter and Son. This is exactly what Malignant Narcissist Mother wants. She wants to be the hub in the middle, the one each child goes to and she certainly does not want them comparing notes. This also allows her to further punish a scapegoat child by manipulating and deceiving the other child or children. Remember dysfunctional families have scapegoats, but a scapegoat is not required unless someone is chronically refusing to take responsibility for their behavior as malignant narcissists are notoriously known for doing.
In my experience as the oldest of five children, with the two oldest children being wise to the tactics to some degree, a malignant narcissist mother will go to extraordinary lengths to divide the knowing from the deceived children. Make no mistake about it, all of the children are being used and manipulated. While it may appear the NPD loves one child more than the other, in reality it is just that in their current deceived state they are more useful to the narcissist. An NPD greatly fears being exposed for one thing and the deceived children serve as narcissistic supply as well as flying monkeys - as long as they are deceived, easily manipulated or willing to continue playing the narcissist's let's pretend games.

 

[Stephen63]

From Help-- I'm Surrounded by Narcissists! | Insights and Help for Narcissistic Christian Relationships

Some brave behavioral scientists have tried to describe and intervene, even treat or cure narcissism. Here are some “big chunk ideas” from their findings, which can help us straightforward, relational folks get more of an idea of what we’re talking about. About the ways a narcissist thinks: two main descriptors– grandiosity and entitlement:

• Grandiosity is the tendency for the narcissist to think more highly of themselves than they have deserved, earned, or merited. The way a narcissist thinks of themselves is like a hot air balloon. It can get very big, awe-inspiring, and colorful. Because narcissists think this way, they can often get other people to believe in their grandiose schemes. Like P. T. Barnum, Cleopatra, Donald Trump, Madonna, and Napoleon, ordinary people with extraordinary attributes, ambition, and drive can pump up their lives into stories of true magnitude and scope. But for most narcissists, their grandiosity doesn’t match their accomplishments. Like the characters in the Wizard of Oz, we often feel cheated and betrayed when we’ve been taken in by the narcissist’s show, illusions and ideals.
• Entitlement is the feeling that one has been born with a silver spoon in their mouth, that they deserve or are entitled– that is, they own the title– to whatever they believe that they deserve. The term entitlement comes from nobility, where if you have a title, you have not only the name that elevates you above the masses, but also the deeds to the land, which makes you special and gives you power. Entitled thinking is just like this: “I am special. I deserve special treatment, attention, privileges, and favors. I am superior to others. There is something about me that should be respected and inspire deference.” We have all encountered entitled people, whether at an airport counter, driving on the freeway, or just sharing living space with someone who thinks they deserve the biggest room, the best service, the first place in line. Let it be known this is the way a narcissist thinks.

Any of us can act in grandiose or entitled ways in specific moments and situations. Sometimes, our entitlement and grandiosity matches reality. For the narcissist, though, their way of thinking is just this: “I am more important than you.” It is VERY hard to challenge this way of thinking. It is even more difficult to live with it.

 

[Stephen63]

Ways of Relating
Narcissism is a way of relating in the world. Two of the most difficult attributes of a narcissist in their interpersonal schema is lack of empathy and an inability to see their part in interpersonal conflicts.

• Lack of empathy, for a true narcissist, means that they really don’t have empathy. They lack appropriate feeling for other people, or sometimes any feeling at all for the feelings of others. This is a really freaky thing to experience in an intimate relationship. Feelings are the currency of love relationships, accompanied by warmth, listening, reflecting, sympathy, and understanding. Narcissists can be very emotionally winsome and persuasive people. But the only person they really feel for is themselves. They are missing the nerve endings that react to the feelings and needs of others in a resonate way. Narcissists often can appear more empathetic than truly empathic people. This is why you can feel you’re in a sci-fi movie like “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” when you realize the person you committed your life to only feels for themselves and doesn’t feel for you at all.
• Narcissists have an inability to own their part in interpersonal conflict. A narcissist cannot be at fault. They are unable to own or take responsibility for creating interpersonal tension, anger, and pain. This is pronounced when they have been the major catalyst, provoker, and wrong-doer. For example, a narcissist will drive into another car’s lane and then blame the other person for the collision. This is related to their thinking because the narcissist doesn’t see themselves as having made the driving error. This type of brain truly believes that everyone else is to blame. It’s part of the defensive structure. As you can imagine, people like this are difficult to live with and there is no working through or resolving arguments in a mutually satisfying way because “it’s always your fault.”

 

[Stephen63]

Ways of Being in the World
Narcissists have a way of being in the world that primarily takes care of themselves. They see the world as an opportunity to get things for themselves– money, status, love, possessions– or as an obstacle to getting these things for themselves. The narcissist’s way of being in the world is self-centered. It is all about me. Like a five-year-old child, the narcissist feels they are the king or queen of all they can grasp or survey. Other people are either subjects, servants, courtesans or external threats.
These are qualities that most of us have identified in one person or another. I believe we all can be narcissistic at times, but hopefully, we can be flexible and respond in different ways with correction, awareness, and the desire to grow and change. The narcissist is trapped in these ways of thinking, relating, and being in the world. They don’t usually see it or know a better way. Personally, I believe all people were made for growth. That it is embedded in our DNA and inherent in our living. Maybe we can see narcissists as more stuck on themselves and in themselves than the average bear and develop some empathy and compassion for their plight.

 

[danschance]

At Least I have learned about gaslighting. I know a friend whose husband does that to her. "She can't ever do anything right" according to her husband. He asked her for a grilled cheese sandwich. she made it then he complained it was not cooked long enough. She tried again but then he said she had burned it.

All I can do is encourage her. Very sad that this man spends so much energy one making his wife feel bad.

 

[Abiding]

id post a comment but i got my own stuff to deal with.

 

[Stephen63]

From Self-Deprecating Narcissists: Why Some Christian Narcissists Appear Humble | Liberty for Captives

A humble narcissist?
I always wondered how my former pastor could appear so righteous and yet act as a narcissist.
Even after writing a post about narcissism in the church, I still scratched my head.
But no more.
Recently, my friends over at “Recovering Grace” re-posted a blog which describes exactly how this behavior happens. Since most Christians frown at obvious narcissism, pastors who struggle with narcissism must cloak their personality disorder with apparent humility. Thus the term “self-deprecating narcissism.”
The article quotes extensively from Jack Watts, who writes about spiritual abuse by evangelical leaders. You will find his insights in this article well worth your time. The author also quotes from Sandy Hotchkiss. I want to read her book, but this snippet quoted in the blog will have to suffice for now:
“Sandy Hotchkiss in her book, Why is It Always About You: The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism, lays out the traits of all narcissists this way. [Emphasis by blogger]

Shamelessness – Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
Magical thinking – Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking.

They also use projection to dump shame onto others.

Arrogance – A narcissist who is feeling deflated may re-inflate by diminishing, debasing, or degrading somebody else.

Envy – A narcissist may secure a sense of superiority in the face of another person’s ability by using contempt to minimize the other person.

Entitlement – Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an “awkward” or “difficult” person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.

Exploitation – can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
Bad Boundaries – narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist are treated as if they are part of the narcissist and are expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.”

 

[Stephen63]

Jack Watts: Self-Deprecating Narcissism among Christian Leaders

Having recently returned from the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, which I have attended on behalf of my clients for the past 30 years, there is an issue I feel compelled to address, one completely avoided by most Christians.

It has bothered me since the first time I entered the large atrium at the Washington Sheraton, where the convention used to be held in the 80s and early-90s. When I walked into the atrium in 1983 -- new to the industry -- I had no idea about what to expect, but I was shocked and ill prepared by what I witnessed, nonetheless. Within a few minutes of my entrance, the Jim & Tammie Faye Bakker Show commenced live from the atrium, complete with orchestra, singers and complementing cast. It was a performance worthy of a Las Vegas or New York production: polished, professional, well-choreographed and upbeat, as well as disingenuous, pretentious and slick.

At the center of attention, amid all of the acclaim, were Jim and Tammy Faye, both exquisitely dressed, well-manicured and perfectly coifed. My astonishment didn't end there, however. Not even close. As I stared in wild-eyed bewilderment, Jimmy Swaggert passed, wearing a camelhair topcoat draped over his shoulders, which looked like a cape, bestowing a regal quality upon him. In his wake trailed half-a-dozen young men and women, like Medieval serfs and waifs, each eager to do the bidding of their celebrity superstar. Pat Robertson came next, followed by Jerry Falwell and other celebrities, each attempting to outdo the others in ostentation. Not to be outdone, lesser luminaries of the "Electric Church" passed, shadowed by the ubiquitous entourage of comely young men and women, each attempting to outdo the other in an endless quest for self-importance.
As I witnessed this display of pretension in stunned silence, I couldn't help but wonder if the Lord walked in, would He be carrying a whip just like He did when He cast the moneychangers out of the Temple, nearly two millennia earlier. I wondered what Christ -- who was born of humble means, never pursued affluence and died ignominiously on a cross -- would think about what was occurring at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention.
After the scandals, which crippled the electric church a few years later, the convention calmed down substantially. But there remains a strong undercurrent of self-deprecating narcissism among the luminaries -- those who are considered to be the lords of evangelicalism, especially within their own fiefdoms. In the subsequent years, the faces have begun to change, but this egregious character quality has remained a constant among the superstars, past and present.

 

[Stephen63]

The concept of "self-deprecating narcissism" may seem like an oxymoron, but I can assure you, it is not. It does, however, require defining. As a caveat, let me acknowledge that not all of the stars of electric Christianity have this character flaw, but a substantial number do. There are a few exceptions -- precious few.

Like others who have a narcissistic personality disorder, the lords of the electric church are self-centered but, unlike their secular counterparts, the leaders of the electric church are never outwardly boastful. People may be forgiving of narcissism in movie stars, beauty queens and exceptional athletes, but certainly not of Christian leaders. This is where they differ from the classic model of narcissism. Because Christ was humble, these leaders are expected to behave similarly. Outwardly, they do, especially by the message they convey to their followers. Their demeanor is always that of a humble servant, eager to follow God's will. They have taken self-deprecating humility and made it an art form, cleverly masking their compulsive craving for attention, approbation and admiration.

Many who recognize their behavior for what it is believe these leaders are conning their followers, but that's not accurate. In fact, it's the exact opposite. A con knows what he or she is doing but chooses to do it anyway, despite the harm it causes. The electronic lords genuinely believe that what they are doing is right, which makes them far more dangerous. In their minds, they have a higher calling than others -- a closer relationship with God -- making whatever they do seen justifiable to them.

If someone gets in their way, especially someone employed by them, that person is perceived as thwarting God's will and fully deserving of the retribution they receive from the narcissistic leader. Because these leaders genuinely believe themselves to be better than others, they insist that each of their employees fall in line, regardless of how outrageous or bizarre the superstar's demands become.

To make matters worse, nearly all of the electronic lords are hypersensitive to criticism. For insulation from disapproval, the lords surround themselves with weak-willed sycophants who wouldn't dream of disagreeing with them. Instead, these well-paid non-entities consistently validate perceptions and behavior that deviate substantially from biblical standards. Within ministries like these, which dominate the electric church, there are two sets of rules: those for the narcissist and those for everyone else.

Within these ministries, a tacit "no-talk" rule is maintained, which keeps the eccentricities of the leader a secret from the rest of the world. And this rule is aggressively enforced. Whenever an underling balks, that person is shamed, castigated and humiliated, while -- at the same time -- being told that their "bad attitude" is being prayed for. If that doesn't shame the person into submission, the verbal abuse is intensified and the person is eventually terminated. Wounded, the discarded person often abandons his or her beliefs, while blaming God for what happened, saying, "God should have done something to stop it."

Undeterred by hurting others in the process of building God's Kingdom on Earth, which just happens to be their kingdom as well, these narcissists regularly take advantage of others, routinely abusing those they are "called to serve." Reasoning that the ends justify the means, they use God's name to wound others. Whenever someone gets in their way, they misuse God's authority to enforce their will, which certainly takes His name in vain. Believing that they have a higher calling, the evangelical lords are certain that God condones their behavior and methods, which the sycophants who surround them eagerly affirm.

The emotional carnage of wrecked lives left behind by these narcissists has become so extensive that it threatens to outnumber those blessed by their ministry efforts. At the same time, few are willing to call them to task, exposing their behavior to the light, reasoning that such whistle blowing would harm God's work.

Obviously, I disagree with that conclusion and have no problem exposing them. In my quarter century of working for Christian ministries, I have witnessed the shattering of many lives, which has led me to write about this subject extensively. It's a role I will continue to pursue.

 

[Stephen63]

slander | 5 Pt. Salt Shaker

When I walk into the local supermarket, there are certain sights that are welcomed and even enjoyed as I peruse the aisles trying to locate all the enigmatic items that men like me seem to never find. One of these sights is the butcher in the back of the store, behind his glass case-of-a-counter, diligently carving up the slabs of meat that men like me enjoy roasting over a grill. Butchers are wonderful things … as long as they keep their cleavers behind the counter with the lifeless meat. It would be quite a different sight to be wheeled into the operating room and see the same white-hat man with the same cleaver in his hand; even if he was just there to tell the surgeon the what and the hows of cutting you open.
There’s an important lesson here: if you’re the butcher equivalent of a pastor/teacher/theologian, you should probably learn your place and persevere in keeping yourself there. This little lesson is one that Joel Taylor just simply will not learn though, so we’re left with his continual barrage of butchered theological blog post after blog post.

Not long ago, there was hope that Joel had learned his lesson. He tweeted: ”Blogging is an insane, narcissistic attempt at forcing one’s thoughts, feelings and beliefs upon a world that does not care.“ He was asked, “so why do you do it?“, to which he replied, “I’m insane and narcissistic.” For once, Joel was starting to win me over, especially when he announced, “I don’t want to be defined by a blog. I just want to preach. I’m done.” Joel is done?! Praise the … Well, in spite of his narcissistic confession of narcissism, Joel Taylor continues his streak of shame-trotting through the blogosphere, mudslinging with the hopes that he will get some attention from the world that, in his own words, “does not care” about his 3rd grade theological IQ.

Look what Joel does in a recent blog post:
It was another Sunday. My family arrived to our meeting place of worship on time, maybe a little early. We took our usual seats.
This Sunday would be a little different. It would include a presentation of the purposes of a particular missionary society and a special speaker from a foreign land. He would not be preaching, but rather giving his testimony and recounting for us his experiences as a Christian in the underground church in his homeland.
The man speaking had experienced ‘persecution’ in various ways, and during the course of his presentation, he mentioned that, as he was being followed by his persecutors on the streets one day, he saw angels on rooftops.
That’s right, he saw angels. So he says.
I didn’t buy into it at all, call me a Baptist. In fact, the moment he said it, emotionally spoken as it was, I tilted my head, rolled my eyes and looked at my wife with that “Why are we here?” look. She got the message.
A question on this blog post then came in response to this article: “Can one hear and angel but not see an angel? cf. Acts 8:26.” To which Joel responded: Only if you’re an apostle, and they are no more.

While the subject of the validity of seeing or hearing angels is certainly one that could be discussed, notice the basis on which Joel Taylor discounts this missionary’s claim: Cessationism. Joel is not evaluating this missionary’s claim through the lens of the Bible, but through his perception of what a cessationist should or should not accept.

Don’t get me wrong, I am, for all practical purposes, a cessationist. However, the issue with the missionary’s claim is not one of cessationism or continuationism, but rather one of supernaturalism vs. anti-supernaturalism. The missionary did NOT claim to have received extra-biblical revelation from God, a claim that if he made should rightly be opposed by any cessationist. The missionary simply claimed to have seen something quite out of the ordinary: angels. While such a claim could border on the spectacular, it is quite different than unequivocally claiming God has given one REVELATION.
The cessationist claim is that God’s self-disclosure in the form of supernatural revelation has ceased. It is NOT that all things supernatural have ceased. Because angels are created beings like you and me, and are not God, revelation of an angel is quite a different matter than revelation from God.
Thus, what the butcher is arguing for, then, is an anti-supernatural worldview that automatically discounts anything of the supernatural under the banner of cessationism.

 

[GMeyers]

Hello Stephen, I am the author of Tactics of a Narcissistic Personality Disordered Mother which you reference in this thread. I am enjoying your discussion, and I just want to let you know the article has moved to the above link. Thanks!

 

[2Thewaters]

We are all narcissistic to some extent, for that is the definition of sin.

The opposite of narcissistic is self-lessness, humbleness lovingkindness.

these we do not have, these are gifts from God
you need to ask for them or you will not recieve.

Now this is a shock for you
get ready

If you see narcissism in someone else.
it is only because YOU YOURSELF have that problem
otherwise you could not see it.

Innocent children have no idea what you are talking about when you talk of narcissism

so admit to God
I am a narcissist
I see it in them
and they refuse to give ME ALL THE ATTENTION they are too busy with themselves!

you see it only bothers you because your narcississm isnt stroked

same with me

so
there is a saying
when you point out a flaw in someone else
there are three fingers pointing back at you
God told me that

here:
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

So when we dont like someone else, there are TWO problems and I myself is the bigger problem.

If you had no narcissistic tendancies it wouldnt bother you at all

so ask God to take away MY narcissistic tendencies
and give me the holy spirit of love, kindness, sympathy, lovingkindness.

when you start giving her unconditional sympathy
her eyes will be opened.

that is the way to treat others...

"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -Romans 12:20.

 

[RedTent]

Today's narcicissm can be traced to the Pietists of the 18th century who took theology from the Objective (what did Christ do concerning our redemption) and began EMPHASIZING the subjective (what experience can I have to make me assured I am His?). Going down this path leads to a ME theology rather than a HE theology.

We are given a great tool in Christian growth by psychologist who explore these disorders, and most can be traced to pain in childhood, not to anything in the 18th century. Many people who have these disorders do not recognize it in themselves even though scripture points it out to them. It takes a lot of self honesty to see where we do not obey God enough to protect us from these things in ourselves.

You have all seen (in others of course) the person who is unkind to others, saying it is because he knows what God says is right for them to do. The Christian who knows God loves him, but no understanding that God loves his neighbor.

Most of the men who study and diagnose personality disorders have no idea that are learning about God's way for us to live, but they are.

I started studying them because I was sure something was seriously wrong with my son in law. I had spent years teaching myself to live by God's word, so I KNEW I was above reproach. What I learned from my study was to recognize a little better the log in my own eye, and how to be more honest with myself in my Christian walk. It gave me how to do it, practical down to earth ways to live God's way.