Not In The World

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Ariel82

Guest
#21
#21
John 17 b 13
John 17:13 Greek Text Analysis

"I am coming" is present indicative tense but we know it's futuristic present tense..

Specifically:
*****

Mostly Futuristic (Ingressive-Futuristic)

The present tense may describe an event begun in the present but completed in the future.

Mark 10:33 I am going up to Jerusalem.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#22
Jul 31, 2013
36,681
13,132
113
#22
Ariel82 said:
"Am no longer in" this world can be translated into more action words "will be leaving" this world

It's not a state of being...
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if i tell you i'm in the movie theater can you really interpret that to mean i'm going to the movies tomorrow, but i'm still in my house now?


 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#23
#23
2 Corinthians 5...
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#24
#24
posthuman said:
if i tell you i'm in the movie theater can you really interpret that to mean i'm going to the movies tomorrow, but i'm still in my house now?


Click to expand...
If you use the movie theater analogy..,Jesus would be say "I am not in the house/world and will be going to the movies/God in Heaven.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#25
#25
posthuman said:
i understand what is being conveyed by these translations, but are they accurate?

the most easily comprehended understanding may not be the right one. for instance, it is not so difficult to see Jesus as a Buddha-like mortal man who achieved an enlightened understanding and a mastery over supernatural forces that any man with proper discipline could also achieve. it is not so difficult for the human mind to see the some underlying historical progression with a lot of myth and hyperbolic exaggeration added all over it. but these are not true. they are false interpretations of what's actually written - not translations of the record into understanding.

so are the NIV & NLT translating or interpreting the scripture into English here?
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I don't know NLT, but I knew one of the guys working on the NIV. It's a translation, not interpretation. (And noticed I said "one of the guys working on." I wonder if that's not it, since he finished what he was working on, and he's been dead for over a decade.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#26
#26
Ariel82 said:
"Am no longer in" this world can be translated into more action words "will be leaving" this world

It's not a state of being...
Click to expand...
I don't know if I'm adding to this or confusing it more, but in English (which ain't Greek nor Aramaic), "am no longer in" is passive. "Will be leaving" is active. The former something is happening to him, the latter he is doing something.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#27
Jul 31, 2013
36,681
13,132
113
#27
Ariel82 said:
John 17 b 13
John 17:13 Greek Text Analysis

"I am coming" is present indicative tense but we know it's futuristic present tense..

Specifically:
*****

Mostly Futuristic (Ingressive-Futuristic)

The present tense may describe an event begun in the present but completed in the future.

Mark 10:33 I am going up to Jerusalem.
Click to expand...


'i come' or 'i go' tells you what i am either doing or plan to do, not who or where i currently am. the use of the present tense to speak of a future plan of action is indicating a decision or other preliminary has taken place and an intention is set. it's not the same as saying that action is already past, and the resulting state of that actions occurrence is already achieved as it is to speak as though it's already underway.

it's one thing for a caterpillar who hasn't entered its cocoon to say 'i become a butterfly.'
it's another for a caterpillar to say 'i am a butterfly' and it's still different for the same caterpillar - still a larva - to say 'i am no longer a caterpillar'

who talks this way?

:) i know who:

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(Romans 4:16-17)​

God, the Father, calls things that are not as though they are. He speaks of the future in past tense -- is that what we have here? ((which is more than a euphemistic case of verb tense)) is comprehending what Christ states showing that He is God? ((the context of John entirely being a poof that Jesus is the Messiah))


 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#28
Jul 31, 2013
36,681
13,132
113
#28
is He just speaking poetically about something that is destined to take place, but hasn't yet?
as though picturing it and, in His mind fully given over to it, taking the voice as though in anticipation His imagination is reality?

then why doesn't He speak of us, who will one day no longer be in the world, in the same way?

and when we read Ephesians, is Paul speaking in the same poetic sense or in terms of temporal, existential, literal reality?

God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:4-7)​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
IOW

which is being 'broken' here -- space or time?

i'm not surprised to find either one, honestly - after all we are reading the Everlasting Father having a conversation with Himself, praying to Himself - written down by a man who was sleeping a distance away while it was being uttered. the profound and the miraculous is all over this whole discussion!
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#29
#29
posthuman said:


'i come' or 'i go' tells you what i am either doing or plan to do, not who or where i currently am. the use of the present tense to speak of a future plan of action is indicating a decision or other preliminary has taken place and an intention is set. it's not the same as saying that action is already past, and the resulting state of that actions occurrence is already achieved as it is to speak as though it's already underway.

it's one thing for a caterpillar who hasn't entered its cocoon to say 'i become a butterfly.'
it's another for a caterpillar to say 'i am a butterfly' and it's still different for the same caterpillar - still a larva - to say 'i am no longer a caterpillar'

who talks this way?

:) i know who:
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(Romans 4:16-17)​

God, the Father, calls things that are not as though they are. He speaks of the future in past tense -- is that what we have here? ((which is more than a euphemistic case of verb tense)) is comprehending what Christ states showing that He is God? ((the context of John entirely being a poof that Jesus is the Messiah))
Click to expand...
Jesus is an infinite being. He was somewhat finite on earth. (He didn't know what day the world would end, for instance, and yet he is God so is usually omniscient.) I do consider your response as possible. I also have problems thinking the finite part of Jesus could let go of time and space while he was still in time and space. I can see him getting excited at the prospects of getting out of that itchy, sweaty, stinking, about-to-be-hurting-all-over body, but would he have the concept of infinite/omniscient/omnipotence at that particular moment already?

Or did he, in caterpillar state, realize the fullness of his past and future butterfly state? I'm kind of stuck with one of the few benefits of pain. The only reason any woman would have more than one child is because when pain fades, we tend to forget exactly how much it hurt.

I never had a child, but I have been in such pain I was willing to kill myself to get out of it. I distinctly remember being flattened on my living room floor squirming all over and seeing a dead roach under my sofa in there. Since that time, they gave me pain pills. And I really feel like my memory of that pain is just as real as the actual pain. BUT one time I ran out of pain pills for a day, and landed right back into the fullness of that pain. Much. Worse. Than. My memories. So much worse.

I tend to see Jesus getting the other side of that. He was so above anything even remotely connected to pain, until he took human form. Could he possibly remember what it was like accurately before then? He might have remembered, but pain does something to our memory. (And as a human, Jesus felt any kind of pain for the first time ever, since he was outside of time before that.) So, to never experience pain in infinite, and then to be hungry -- which is a small kind of pain -- or to need to go to the bathroom -- another small kind of pain -- all had to add up to tremendous pain for someone with nothing to compare it to. And now he faced the cross and the pain before the cross. Could he go back to remembering no pain?

Could he yet think in infinite again?
 
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