Another example of what I think the passage is talking about would be the story of Moses and the burning bush. Moses grew in the presence and household of King Pharaoh, along with that he would have received the best of the best, education, life style, statue, the privileges of a prince etc. etc. But look at how God got his attention, supernaturally, with a burning bush and even with that he was hesitant but the event and experience was sufficient to convince Moses to obey God.
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In this sense Moses and Paul had similar experiences. When I am saying is that uses extra ordinary circumstances or supernatural events to change or mold the directions of our already hardened hearts. We are told that God searches the heart and knows it thoroughly, He know what measure He needs to use in order change our hearts to seek after Him. Some need more measure then others. Some hearts God knows will never choose after God, thus God hands them over to their lusts and doesn't bother revealing Himself any more then what was already given. I can think of many examples of this. Romans 1:18-25 expounds upon this:
Romans 1:18-25
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (God reveals himself to everyone, predestination in the sense that most Christians understand it is incorrect)21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, (the knowledge of God was hidden from them, because of their own accord, but God also kept it from them in a sense because God choose not perform the works of miracles because He knew they wouldn't have a change of heart) 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (God handed them over to the sinful ways, and in this sense hardened their hearts even more).
A great example of this is King Nebakanezer and his son( I don't have much time, I'm on lunch break) Nebakanezer had a life changing experience, when he was made to eat grass for 7 years (?)..He came out of that praising and acknowledging God as sovereign over all. But Nebakanezer's son, King Belshazzar, had to have the knowledge of his father's conversion, all the stories of Daniel and the miracle's performed by God and God knows what else, but choose to ignore all that for the pride of his hardened heart. Belshazzar had all the evidence at his finger tips to know God but sought not after God. Thus you see no supernatural experiences or circumstances to change his heart. Even the hand writing on the wall wasn't enough.
Jesus also speaks of this same concept to the pharisees and scribes etc. who were asking for a sign, and Jesus no sign will be give except the sign of Jonah.
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
An Unclean Spirit Returns
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
This is what I believe it means when the bible talks about God hardened the hearts of people, just handing them over to their own lusts and Satan. But God does use His supernatural power to deliver some of the most hardened hearts because He knows the outcome.
But still all in all, it's a mystery to me how God works. For His ways are above my ways, and my understanding is finite.
Another example: Luke 16 - The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Romans 1:18-25
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (God reveals himself to everyone, predestination in the sense that most Christians understand it is incorrect)21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, (the knowledge of God was hidden from them, because of their own accord, but God also kept it from them in a sense because God choose not perform the works of miracles because He knew they wouldn't have a change of heart) 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (God handed them over to the sinful ways, and in this sense hardened their hearts even more).
A great example of this is King Nebakanezer and his son( I don't have much time, I'm on lunch break) Nebakanezer had a life changing experience, when he was made to eat grass for 7 years (?)..He came out of that praising and acknowledging God as sovereign over all. But Nebakanezer's son, King Belshazzar, had to have the knowledge of his father's conversion, all the stories of Daniel and the miracle's performed by God and God knows what else, but choose to ignore all that for the pride of his hardened heart. Belshazzar had all the evidence at his finger tips to know God but sought not after God. Thus you see no supernatural experiences or circumstances to change his heart. Even the hand writing on the wall wasn't enough.
Jesus also speaks of this same concept to the pharisees and scribes etc. who were asking for a sign, and Jesus no sign will be give except the sign of Jonah.
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
An Unclean Spirit Returns
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
This is what I believe it means when the bible talks about God hardened the hearts of people, just handing them over to their own lusts and Satan. But God does use His supernatural power to deliver some of the most hardened hearts because He knows the outcome.
But still all in all, it's a mystery to me how God works. For His ways are above my ways, and my understanding is finite.
Another example: Luke 16 - The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
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C
My Friend,
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my quick reply and not giving your point its due respect.
Bookends = Black/blue. Me = purple
　
Matthew 11:27;
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Cee, please explain to me what you think Jesus is saying here, "the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him(the Father)".
The passage seems to indicate that Jesus wills this light to be shown,
You asked me to give my understanding to 'Son wills', and I will try. But first, I need to go to the word 'knoweth' and understand its meaning. Comprehensiviely, it means to recognise (to know upon some mark). So, to me, it would be saying that no one recognizes the Son except the Father and no one recognizes the Father except the Son and those whom the Son desires to uncover Him to. In the end, we do not know God as a Father unless He is revealed to us as a Father by the Son.
The question which then needs to be asked is, 'when does the Son desire to reveal God as a Father'? And we find that answer in the next verse. When one comes (seeking God) towards (directional) the Son and not the Law in seeking God, seeing that He offers His rest in place of that rest found in that Law. So then, the Son desires to show God as a Father through God's salvational plan undertaken through the Christ.
a great example of this could be the conversion of the Apostle Paul.
The understanding taken from this is that the Son desired to show Paul God as a Father through grace and not as Lawgiver through the Law. If this is what you meant, I agree.
Out of respect for you Cee, your answer does not adequately answer or explain how that Jesus "wills to reveal Himself" to the one of a broken heart.
The verse is saying that the Son reveals God as the Father to those who come towards Him (Christ) and not the Law when they seek God in their repentance brought about by the contriting of their heart. So, in that process of being converted (turned around) by the Spirit, we first come to the Light and told the Truth by the Spirit of Truth, that we need this Christ who He is pointing towards. We then, hopefully, accept this Christ and come to Him and then we are shown God as a Father and not a Lawgiver by that Son.
If you look at the beginning of this passage, Jesus is actually talking about the wise and intelligent, they certain aren't broken hearted. And goes to the infants,which are the ones whom seem easily persuaded in who Christ is and what He's done. But in the passage the things (unrepentance and judgment; see the previous verses 20-24) are hidden by God to the wise and intelligent, and revealed by God to the infants.
Agreed.
To me this passage seems to indicate that some need Christ to reveal Himself to them in a stronger or supernatural sense, like Paul. While some others, the infants, weary and heavy- laden, come more willingly. But in either case, an individual needs to make the choice to come.
With me understanding that it is the Son who reveals God as the Father, I agree to this point. It certainly leads back to God doing what is necessary of bringing a yet sinner Home, as He displayed that earnesty in the wilderness.
Another example of what I think the passage is talking about would be the story of Moses and the burning bush. Moses grew in the presence and household of King Pharaoh, along with that he would have received the best of the best, education, life style, statue, the privileges of a prince etc. etc. But look at how God got his attention, supernaturally, with a burning bush and even with that he was hesitant but the event and experience was sufficient to convince Moses to obey God.
Again, I agree that God does what is necessary to lead One to a true faith in Him. I am a strong believer that we are led and once we willfully concur to be led, God will lead us were we need to be so that we are were we need to be in our walk with Him. If we lack true conviction of His reality and yet we blindly place our faith in Him, He will show us that our faith is not misplaced.
If I have not understood your point correctly, please try again.
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my quick reply and not giving your point its due respect.
Bookends = Black/blue. Me = purple
　
Matthew 11:27;
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Cee, please explain to me what you think Jesus is saying here, "the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him(the Father)".
The passage seems to indicate that Jesus wills this light to be shown,
You asked me to give my understanding to 'Son wills', and I will try. But first, I need to go to the word 'knoweth' and understand its meaning. Comprehensiviely, it means to recognise (to know upon some mark). So, to me, it would be saying that no one recognizes the Son except the Father and no one recognizes the Father except the Son and those whom the Son desires to uncover Him to. In the end, we do not know God as a Father unless He is revealed to us as a Father by the Son.
The question which then needs to be asked is, 'when does the Son desire to reveal God as a Father'? And we find that answer in the next verse. When one comes (seeking God) towards (directional) the Son and not the Law in seeking God, seeing that He offers His rest in place of that rest found in that Law. So then, the Son desires to show God as a Father through God's salvational plan undertaken through the Christ.
a great example of this could be the conversion of the Apostle Paul.
The understanding taken from this is that the Son desired to show Paul God as a Father through grace and not as Lawgiver through the Law. If this is what you meant, I agree.
Out of respect for you Cee, your answer does not adequately answer or explain how that Jesus "wills to reveal Himself" to the one of a broken heart.
The verse is saying that the Son reveals God as the Father to those who come towards Him (Christ) and not the Law when they seek God in their repentance brought about by the contriting of their heart. So, in that process of being converted (turned around) by the Spirit, we first come to the Light and told the Truth by the Spirit of Truth, that we need this Christ who He is pointing towards. We then, hopefully, accept this Christ and come to Him and then we are shown God as a Father and not a Lawgiver by that Son.
If you look at the beginning of this passage, Jesus is actually talking about the wise and intelligent, they certain aren't broken hearted. And goes to the infants,which are the ones whom seem easily persuaded in who Christ is and what He's done. But in the passage the things (unrepentance and judgment; see the previous verses 20-24) are hidden by God to the wise and intelligent, and revealed by God to the infants.
Agreed.
To me this passage seems to indicate that some need Christ to reveal Himself to them in a stronger or supernatural sense, like Paul. While some others, the infants, weary and heavy- laden, come more willingly. But in either case, an individual needs to make the choice to come.
With me understanding that it is the Son who reveals God as the Father, I agree to this point. It certainly leads back to God doing what is necessary of bringing a yet sinner Home, as He displayed that earnesty in the wilderness.
Another example of what I think the passage is talking about would be the story of Moses and the burning bush. Moses grew in the presence and household of King Pharaoh, along with that he would have received the best of the best, education, life style, statue, the privileges of a prince etc. etc. But look at how God got his attention, supernaturally, with a burning bush and even with that he was hesitant but the event and experience was sufficient to convince Moses to obey God.
Again, I agree that God does what is necessary to lead One to a true faith in Him. I am a strong believer that we are led and once we willfully concur to be led, God will lead us were we need to be so that we are were we need to be in our walk with Him. If we lack true conviction of His reality and yet we blindly place our faith in Him, He will show us that our faith is not misplaced.
If I have not understood your point correctly, please try again.
I think we are having a bit of "disconnect". lol ...It is of my interpretation that God does the revealing. God or the Son make no difference to me. God opens our eyes to see the Son and the Son opens our eyes to see the Father, the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. God, or the Son reveals Himself to us by His choosing, not based on predestination, but based on God's foreknowledge and God knowing the hearts of those who would choose to accept Him.
Mat 11:27 All thingsG3956 are deliveredG3860 unto meG3427 ofG5259 myG3450 Father:G3962 andG2532 no manG3762 knowethG1921 theG3588 Son,G5207 butG1508 theG3588 Father;G3962 neitherG3761 knowethG1921 any manG5100 theG3588 Father,G3962 saveG1508 theG3588 Son,G5207 andG2532 he to whomsoever (us, whom God chooses, based on God's foreknowledge, not because God programed us) G3739 G1437 theG3588 SonG5207 willG1014 revealG601 him. <<<----him, not in the text but added by translators to give clarity. Problem is does him refer to the Son, God, or us? If you take out the "him" it make more sense to me. I think the "him" is referring back to the whomever.
disclaimer: I reserve the right to be wrong.
Mat 11:27 All thingsG3956 are deliveredG3860 unto meG3427 ofG5259 myG3450 Father:G3962 andG2532 no manG3762 knowethG1921 theG3588 Son,G5207 butG1508 theG3588 Father;G3962 neitherG3761 knowethG1921 any manG5100 theG3588 Father,G3962 saveG1508 theG3588 Son,G5207 andG2532 he to whomsoever (us, whom God chooses, based on God's foreknowledge, not because God programed us) G3739 G1437 theG3588 SonG5207 willG1014 revealG601 him. <<<----him, not in the text but added by translators to give clarity. Problem is does him refer to the Son, God, or us? If you take out the "him" it make more sense to me. I think the "him" is referring back to the whomever.
disclaimer: I reserve the right to be wrong.
C
Was it not Jesus who split the veil through His death so that we could boldly enter into the Holy of Holies, the very presence of God Himself? Indeed my Brother, Jesus has uncovered God, not as unaprroachable, as it as through the Law, but has given access to Father to us by the means of having been made acceptable through His shed blood. So, the Son reveals the Father, but we know not either until we are led to the Light and then led to the Christ, and then the Christ becomes the Son who leads us into a reconcialtion with God, and by which, we call Him Abba.
But also God the Father revealed the Son, for the Father sent Jesus here. And Peter wouldn't had know who Jesus was for God in heaven, revealing it to via the Holy Spirit. All 3 in the Godhead reveal each other.
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Can you comment on the part where I said that God (the trinity) reveals himself (the Godhead) to whomever he chooses, not by predestination (picking us out of a line up), but according to His foreknowledge and understanding of our hearts, whereby He knows what our response will be; and using different means and measure in which to make mens' heart one of pliable flesh? Why else would Jesus make mention of the wise and intellect and the simple? I think its because God knows that what ever he does, some people will never believe or don't want to believe. Those people (who don't want to believe) God does not take extra measure to reveal Himself (they already have enough proof whereby God can judge them). But He will take that extra measure even if one is wise and intelligent to break through the pride of man, to the one who is willing to change.
C
Bookends = black/blue
Me = purple
But also God the Father revealed the Son, for the Father sent Jesus here. And Peter wouldn't had know who Jesus was for God in heaven, revealing it to via the Holy Spirit. All 3 in the Godhead reveal each other.
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
I can only but concur with you that God, in his Triunity, reveals the members of the Godhead. But, my point that the Son reveals God as a Father and NOT as a Lawgiver still stands, according to that verse. We must first approach Christ before we know God as Father, seeing that the Son is the only way to God under the New Covenant. Under the Law, I do not think God was attributed with the title of Father, He only became a Father when the Son came into the world. So, without the Son, we would not know God as Father, but as a lawgiver.
Can you comment on the part where I said that God (the trinity) reveals himself (the Godhead) to whomever he chooses, not by predestination (picking us out of a line up), but according to His foreknowledge and understanding of our hearts, whereby He knows what our response will be; and using different means and measure in which to make mens' heart one of pliable flesh?
I thought I had, my apologies. With the understanding that the word 'knoweth' means 'recognizes', then to me it is not saying that the Sons reveals Himself, or even God, to whomever He will, but that God is recognized as Father by those who Christ wills to know Him as Father. And that will is shown active by those who come to the Son looking for rest from the Law as a means of their righteousness.
So, does God reveal Himself to whom He wills. Yes. And that is the why it is said that we are to seek God until He rains righteousness down upon us. From my understanding, the one who seeks God in repentane will in no way be turned away. And if God desires all to be saved, then His desires to reveal Himself to all when they come in repentance and seeking His face. As to when, I have no idea, but I know that no one seeking Him will be turned away.
Why else would Jesus make mention of the wise and intellect and the simple?
The sinner is to come to God simply through faith and not through the wisdom and intellect found in the Law, seeing that those cities contained Jews knowing the Law. But those who are babes (not yet speaking, simple minded) are not polluted by the things of the Law, and thus, God reveals the simplicity of the Gospel to those who are ignorant (God chooses the ignorance of this world (1 Corinthians ?:??)).
I think its because God knows that what ever he does, some people will never believe or don't want to believe. Those people (who don't want to believe) God does not take extra measure to reveal Himself (they already have enough proof whereby God can judge them). But He will take that extra measure even if one is wise and intelligent to break through the pride of man, to the one who is willing to change. I agree. (note that nothing follows: I agree
)
Me = purple
But also God the Father revealed the Son, for the Father sent Jesus here. And Peter wouldn't had know who Jesus was for God in heaven, revealing it to via the Holy Spirit. All 3 in the Godhead reveal each other.
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
I can only but concur with you that God, in his Triunity, reveals the members of the Godhead. But, my point that the Son reveals God as a Father and NOT as a Lawgiver still stands, according to that verse. We must first approach Christ before we know God as Father, seeing that the Son is the only way to God under the New Covenant. Under the Law, I do not think God was attributed with the title of Father, He only became a Father when the Son came into the world. So, without the Son, we would not know God as Father, but as a lawgiver.
Can you comment on the part where I said that God (the trinity) reveals himself (the Godhead) to whomever he chooses, not by predestination (picking us out of a line up), but according to His foreknowledge and understanding of our hearts, whereby He knows what our response will be; and using different means and measure in which to make mens' heart one of pliable flesh?
I thought I had, my apologies. With the understanding that the word 'knoweth' means 'recognizes', then to me it is not saying that the Sons reveals Himself, or even God, to whomever He will, but that God is recognized as Father by those who Christ wills to know Him as Father. And that will is shown active by those who come to the Son looking for rest from the Law as a means of their righteousness.
So, does God reveal Himself to whom He wills. Yes. And that is the why it is said that we are to seek God until He rains righteousness down upon us. From my understanding, the one who seeks God in repentane will in no way be turned away. And if God desires all to be saved, then His desires to reveal Himself to all when they come in repentance and seeking His face. As to when, I have no idea, but I know that no one seeking Him will be turned away.
Why else would Jesus make mention of the wise and intellect and the simple?
The sinner is to come to God simply through faith and not through the wisdom and intellect found in the Law, seeing that those cities contained Jews knowing the Law. But those who are babes (not yet speaking, simple minded) are not polluted by the things of the Law, and thus, God reveals the simplicity of the Gospel to those who are ignorant (God chooses the ignorance of this world (1 Corinthians ?:??)).
I think its because God knows that what ever he does, some people will never believe or don't want to believe. Those people (who don't want to believe) God does not take extra measure to reveal Himself (they already have enough proof whereby God can judge them). But He will take that extra measure even if one is wise and intelligent to break through the pride of man, to the one who is willing to change. I agree. (note that nothing follows: I agree
)
Bookends = black/blue
Me = purple
But also God the Father revealed the Son, for the Father sent Jesus here. And Peter wouldn't had know who Jesus was for God in heaven, revealing it to via the Holy Spirit. All 3 in the Godhead reveal each other.
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
I can only but concur with you that God, in his Triunity, reveals the members of the Godhead. But, my point that the Son reveals God as a Father and NOT as a Lawgiver still stands, according to that verse. We must first approach Christ before we know God as Father, seeing that the Son is the only way to God under the New Covenant. Under the Law, I do not think God was attributed with the title of Father, He only became a Father when the Son came into the world. So, without the Son, we would not know God as Father, but as a lawgiver.
Can you comment on the part where I said that God (the trinity) reveals himself (the Godhead) to whomever he chooses, not by predestination (picking us out of a line up), but according to His foreknowledge and understanding of our hearts, whereby He knows what our response will be; and using different means and measure in which to make mens' heart one of pliable flesh?
I thought I had, my apologies. With the understanding that the word 'knoweth' means 'recognizes', then to me it is not saying that the Sons reveals Himself, or even God, to whomever He will, but that God is recognized as Father by those who Christ wills to know Him as Father. And that will is shown active by those who come to the Son looking for rest from the Law as a means of their righteousness.
So, does God reveal Himself to whom He wills. Yes. And that is the why it is said that we are to seek God until He rains righteousness down upon us. From my understanding, the one who seeks God in repentane will in no way be turned away. And if God desires all to be saved, then His desires to reveal Himself to all when they come in repentance and seeking His face. As to when, I have no idea, but I know that no one seeking Him will be turned away.
Why else would Jesus make mention of the wise and intellect and the simple?
The sinner is to come to God simply through faith and not through the wisdom and intellect found in the Law, seeing that those cities contained Jews knowing the Law. But those who are babes (not yet speaking, simple minded) are not polluted by the things of the Law, and thus, God reveals the simplicity of the Gospel to those who are ignorant (God chooses the ignorance of this world (1 Corinthians ?:??)).
I think its because God knows that what ever he does, some people will never believe or don't want to believe. Those people (who don't want to believe) God does not take extra measure to reveal Himself (they already have enough proof whereby God can judge them). But He will take that extra measure even if one is wise and intelligent to break through the pride of man, to the one who is willing to change. I agree. (note that nothing follows: I agree )
Me = purple
But also God the Father revealed the Son, for the Father sent Jesus here. And Peter wouldn't had know who Jesus was for God in heaven, revealing it to via the Holy Spirit. All 3 in the Godhead reveal each other.
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
I can only but concur with you that God, in his Triunity, reveals the members of the Godhead. But, my point that the Son reveals God as a Father and NOT as a Lawgiver still stands, according to that verse. We must first approach Christ before we know God as Father, seeing that the Son is the only way to God under the New Covenant. Under the Law, I do not think God was attributed with the title of Father, He only became a Father when the Son came into the world. So, without the Son, we would not know God as Father, but as a lawgiver.
Can you comment on the part where I said that God (the trinity) reveals himself (the Godhead) to whomever he chooses, not by predestination (picking us out of a line up), but according to His foreknowledge and understanding of our hearts, whereby He knows what our response will be; and using different means and measure in which to make mens' heart one of pliable flesh?
I thought I had, my apologies. With the understanding that the word 'knoweth' means 'recognizes', then to me it is not saying that the Sons reveals Himself, or even God, to whomever He will, but that God is recognized as Father by those who Christ wills to know Him as Father. And that will is shown active by those who come to the Son looking for rest from the Law as a means of their righteousness.
So, does God reveal Himself to whom He wills. Yes. And that is the why it is said that we are to seek God until He rains righteousness down upon us. From my understanding, the one who seeks God in repentane will in no way be turned away. And if God desires all to be saved, then His desires to reveal Himself to all when they come in repentance and seeking His face. As to when, I have no idea, but I know that no one seeking Him will be turned away.
Why else would Jesus make mention of the wise and intellect and the simple?
The sinner is to come to God simply through faith and not through the wisdom and intellect found in the Law, seeing that those cities contained Jews knowing the Law. But those who are babes (not yet speaking, simple minded) are not polluted by the things of the Law, and thus, God reveals the simplicity of the Gospel to those who are ignorant (God chooses the ignorance of this world (1 Corinthians ?:??)).
I think its because God knows that what ever he does, some people will never believe or don't want to believe. Those people (who don't want to believe) God does not take extra measure to reveal Himself (they already have enough proof whereby God can judge them). But He will take that extra measure even if one is wise and intelligent to break through the pride of man, to the one who is willing to change. I agree. (note that nothing follows: I agree
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W
This is the day the lord hath made, we will rejoice and be glad in it... I was going to say something but after reading five pages of this ,I guess discussion , I'm so tired It will be short. Maybe I'm missing something or am so carnally minded I don't understand this edifying discussion that is so edifying Sincerely, to me they for the most part seem as word to little profit. I wonder if all this "knowledge" ( if that's what it is) leads any of us to bring more souls into our lords kingdom . Our to build up and strengthened that which is fallen?I really don't get the profitability of it.If it would only bring a conclusion to some differences or would " be to the subverting of the hearers"To me I'ts not even Profitable in doctrine To me the words seemed riddled with half truths ,mistruths, Ignorance,Strife, and pride ,among others. A question.... How many souls have you ,by the Spirit, had the joy and fruitfulness on reaping and bringing in the store house? The fields are white to harvest, Pray for laborers into that harvest I do think it important to share our measure of Christ to others Rebuking, exhorting , encouraging with all assurance. Do the work of an evangelist,Study to shew thyself approved a workman unto god that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.And I charge you not to strive about words to no profit but to the subverting of the hearers. And the servant of the lord must not strive; but be gentle to all men apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; If God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil , who are taking captive by him at his will. Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season:rebuke ,reprove, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they shall not endure sound doctrine ; but after their own lust shall heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. And they shall turn away from the truth, and be turned unto fables. But watch in all things ,make full proof of the ministry. Of these thing put them in remembrance, charging before the lord that they strive about words to no profit Who hath saved us,and called us with an Holy calling, not according to work , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. But now is made manifest by the appearing of his son,of our savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death and brought life and mortality to light through the gospel. ... Well just a little Timtheous! God bless us as we strive to enter the narrow Gate. Amen .
W
Like I said I had just read a bunch of pages in the post and was not just speaking to you I was just sharing my thought and some thing of importance that might relate to some of the ( in my opinion) wasteful and none edifying discussion , of which I sure I also am sometimes a partaker of. Grace and peace in Christ Jesus
Not at all, I enjoyed our conversation, but I don't understand why you keep bring the law into this. I don't think this passage is about which part of the Godhead reveals each other, but that God reveals himself in the Godhead to us. I need to go back and pray and read some more and maybe I can see where you are coming from.