Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Atwood]

to SeaBass who posted " SeaBass

Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him.
Only in your darkened mind. . .

The Lord saves, sanctifies & perfects all kinds of sinners, even deniers, when such persons trust Christ as Savior. Their denial is forgiven -- denial is one of the sins for which Christ died. Even the denials of SeaBass can be forgiven, if He will trust Christ as His only & sufficient Savior (which implies not trusting in water or one's good works).

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[Elin]

In the context of Rom 10, the Jews were lost for they went about doing 'their own thing" instead of submitting to God's righteous commands.

Their "own thing" was the law, whereas righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17) not from law keeping.

Your religious persuasion is a serious truncation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

there IS a difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness.

God's righteousness (Ro 1:17) is a gift, (Ro 5:17), not a matter of "doing". . .but only a matter of receiving.

Whereas my wages are a matter of doing, they are not a matter of receiving a gift (Ro 5:17).

It's not complicated. . .

 

[Atwood]

Don't forget Hezekiah 6:9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
but don't forget that you also gots a bunch of hoops to jump through,
& that you must square that hippopotamus rightly.

 

[Elin]

The bible STILL says 'save yourselves', 'save thyself', 'cleanse ourselves', etc

STILL previously addressed. . .

 

[Elin]

It is not secured by works, but James does show that our salvation is secured by faith.
And James shows that
if a person wanders away from obeying the truth of salvation through Christ, they are not saved and headed to eternal life.

And that is because only counterfeit faith permanently apostasizes (1Jn 2:19).

 

[Elin]

Don't forget Hezekiah 6:9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
but don't forget that you also gots a bunch of hoops to jump through,
& that you must square that hippopotamus rightly.

"Hippopotamus". . .love it!

 

[kennethcadwell]

And that is because only counterfeit faith permanently apostasizes (1Jn 2:19).

A counterfeit faith means a person would not be truly in the faith to begin with, therefore they could not fall away from the faith.

This however of some who will fall away from the faith comes directly from Jesus, Paul, James, and the words of the Holy Spirit. Therefore those who are being talked about by them could not have had a counterfeit faith, because a person can not fall away from something they were not a part of. They would have had to been in the faith, and it not be counterfeit in order to fall away.

Jesus and Paul both show us different ways this happens that lead people to stop believing..................


The Galatians for one were in the faith and walked by the gospel of Christ, and then were deceived to going back to false teaching of justification by the law. Apostle Paul clearly gives this fact, and tells them Christ has become of no affect to them (no remission of sins) and they have fallen from grace (not under God's grace means no salvation).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If right doing (righteousness) does not save then the only alternative is wrong doing (unrighteouness) which does not save either and you leave man no way to be saved.

Thats wrong and proves you know nothinng of the law.

The law gave you Gods standard of how to earn salvation. perfection. Anyone who falls short of that law is a sinner (rom 3:23) and can never do enough so called righteous deeds to get back into right standing with God.

Your problem is your suckered into legalism. right and wrong. When God said ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT. there is not enough good you can do to make up for one wrong you ever did.

Nowhere does God expect man's righteousness to be sinlessly perfect. What right doing [righteousness] does is put one in Christ (Gal 3:27) and being in Christ one is then clothed by Christ's perfect righteousness.

No Where?

Moses declared it, And paul reiterated it.

cursed is EVERYONE who does not confirm and OBEY all the words of this law (perfection)

Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heb 5:9 does not say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that disobey Him so they can then obey Him. That is an obvious rewrite of the verse.

Nope. it says he is the author of salvation. Who are those who obey him? Those who are saved.

It says nothing about who is not saved, nice try again, but your off. And you did not prove me wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

....and that old straw man makes another appearance.
Is your best argument that you can put forth is to put words in my mouth that I have never said?

You should stop speaking, You just placed your foot in your mouth, here I will prove it

Obeying God's will does not earn salvation but are a necessary condition that are a part of God's free gift of salvation. Your refusal to understand that does not make me wrong.

There is no difference in saying a condition of salvation. or earning salvation. both mean the same.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house and Noah obeyed. According to you, Noah's work in obeying God earn the saving of his house and it was not of grace.

Noah was saved the moment he believed God. His work proceed from that faith.

 

[Elin]

A counterfeit faith means a person would not be truly in the faith to begin with, therefore they could not fall away from the faith.

They can fall away from their profession of faith.

All we have to go on are professions of faith, for only God knows if a profession of faith is actually a possession of faith.

So when the NT refers to the faith of anyone personally, it is their profession of faith to which it is referring.
God is the judge of whether it is real or counterfeit, although we have been given a way to measure that for our own personal faith.

This however of some who will fall away from the faith comes directly from Jesus, Paul, James, and the words of the Holy Spirit. Therefore those who are being talked about by them could not have had a counterfeit faith, because a person can not fall away from something they were not a part of. They would have had to been in the faith, and it not be counterfeit in order to fall away.

Jesus and Paul both show us different ways this happens that lead people to stop believing..................


The Galatians for one were in the faith and walked by the gospel of Christ, and then were deceived to going back to false teaching of justification by the law. Apostle Paul clearly gives this fact, and tells them Christ has become of no affect to them (no remission of sins) and they have fallen from grace (not under God's grace means no salvation).[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is a straw man telling lies when I have shown from Rom 10:3 over and over that one doing his OWN righteousness does not save but submitting/obeying GOD'S will is what saves.

Other than trotting that straw man out, you have no other valid argument.

it is a strawman over and over again saying your not trying to earn salvation. then saying work is a condition.

It is a strawman saying one does not have a valid argument, when he has not only a valid, but scriptural argument. yet he can not prove the person wrong .

the strawman is the argument minus proof. or saying one thing, when you believe another.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him. That one does not have to do the work of confessing Christ for God will go ahead and save, perfect and sanctify those that deny Christ.

here is your strawman.

Show one person who said God will save someone why denys him. Show me with proof. quote the post.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A counterfeit faith means a person would not be truly in the faith to begin with, therefore they could not fall away from the faith.

This however of some who will fall away from the faith comes directly from Jesus, Paul, James, and the words of the Holy Spirit. Therefore those who are being talked about by them could not have had a counterfeit faith, because a person can not fall away from something they were not a part of. They would have had to been in the faith, and it not be counterfeit in order to fall away.

Jesus and Paul both show us different ways this happens that lead people to stop believing..................


The Galatians for one were in the faith and walked by the gospel of Christ, and then were deceived to going back to false teaching of justification by the law. Apostle Paul clearly gives this fact, and tells them Christ has become of no affect to them (no remission of sins) and they have fallen from grace (not under God's grace means no salvation).

thats not true.

James called it a dead faith. It is no faith at all. it is just a claimed faith.

Nice try though.

faith can also be used as a noun, ie the gospel of faith. someone can be participating in it by going to church and hanging ourt with Gods children. But never have TRUE FAITH to begin with. they can fall from the "thing" (faith) They were following at one time, yet never really took in for their own. I have seen it many times in my christian life.

 

[Elin]

They can fall away from their profession of faith.

All we have to go on are professions of faith, for only God knows if a profession of faith is actually a possession of faith.

So when the NT refers to the faith of anyone personally, it is their profession of faith to which it is referring.
God is the judge of whether it is real or counterfeit, although we have been given a way to measure that for our own personal faith.

CON'T:

This however of some who will fall away from the faith comes directly from Jesus, Paul, James, and the words of the Holy Spirit. Therefore those who are being talked about by them could not have had a counterfeit faith, because a person can not fall away from something they were not a part of. They would have had to been in the faith, and it not be counterfeit in order to fall away.

They can fall from a profession (claim) of something they did not have.

They weren't in the faith, which is what their falling away showed (1Jn 2:19)

Jesus and Paul both show us different ways this happens that lead people to stop believing..................

Yes, counterfeit faith stops believing what it once professed to believe.

The Galatians for one were in the faith and walked by the gospel of Christ, and then were deceived to going back to false teaching of justification by the law. Apostle Paul clearly gives this fact, and tells them Christ has become of no affect to them (no remission of sins) and they have fallen from grace (not under God's grace means no salvation).

You are not understanding apostasy from "faith" in the light of the whole NT counsel of God in 1Jn 2:19.

 

[KenAllan]

The Thief on the cross is an example of Salvation in the New Testament SeaBass. Just because his receiving Salvation and entering into Heaven is not how you want it to be does not mean its not a N.T Salvation.

When Jesus Christ was born Grace entered into the picture.

John 1:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Grace entered into the World long before the Thief died on the cross SeaBass. Therefore he did receive Salvation just by Faith and Grace.

You can try to Work for your Salvation SeaBass and you can try to deceive others into following you but doing so is not doing the Will of the Father. Deceiving people is not the Will of the Father SeaBass. Be careful SeaBass for you might not be allowed to enter into Heaven if you keep on the road you are on.

Galatians 2:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

If we are Justified by Faith SeaBass and not by Works, why are you trying to be Justified by your Works? The Works we are to do has nothing to do with receiving or keeping our Salvation. The Works we do are to show the World we belong to Jesus Christ!

Some will lose their Salvation by the falling away of their Faith. But you do not receive faith by works, you receive Faith by listening to what the Holy Spirit says.

Works cannot keep your Faith. Faith is a belief that Jesus Christ IS God. When you stop believing then you lose your Faith and Salvation. An example of this is Judas. Judas lost his Faith that Jesus Christ was God and look what happened to him.

 

[know1]

So you are saying one does not need the whole counsel of God, that one can just cherry pick one verse out of the entire bible ignoring the rest????

If you can cherry pick, then why can't another person cherry pick out Rom 8:24 and claim salvation is by "hope only" and claim no belief, no repentance, no confession or baptism for remission of sins required?

One runs into contradictions not considering all the counsel of God.

One needs to rightly divide the word of truth, not pervert or twist it into something it isn't saying.
Just because the bible says that Jesus loved Lazarus, doesn't mean He was gay.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The word, verily means, truly. Which means, that it can stand alone.
If Jesus said these statements are truth, then they don't need help from other verses to make it the whole council of God.
If they did need help to make it the whole council of God, then Jesus couldn't say what He said was a true statement.
So which is it, cherry picking for these verses or do they need the help of other verses to make them true statements?
I prefer to believe them to be true statements as they are.

 

[mailmandan]

Most of what I wrote, you did not seem to understand, according to your interpretation.
What I have been saying the whole time is, believe and confess what you believe, when you believe. Believe and confess, believe and confess.

Again, believe and confess are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10. Confess/believe; believe confess.

Just like it is written. Not weeks later.

Yes, just like it is written. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart - TOGETHER (Romans 10:8). Confess/believe; believe confess (Romans 10:9,10) - TOGETHER.

How something so simple and easily seen can be missed and twisted by so many, boggles my mind.

It is simple and why are you still trying to argue with me about it?

Without works of faith, your faith is dead. It's just that simple, just like it's written.

Without works, we DEMONSTRATE that our faith is dead. James 2:14 - What good is it if a man says/claims to have faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? This is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/a dead faith. We don't produce works in order to establish faith, but in order to SHOW our faith (James 2:18) that is already established in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-10).

 

[mailmandan]

The ones that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH THE WILL of My Father. The works those people were doing in v23 were not the works of the Father.

Those works were not done out of faith. These people are not believers.

The part of this text that consistently gets bypassed by some is Jesus saying the ones that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH the will of the Father Mt 7:21.

John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[posthuman]

It has been pointed out that it does not matter that Christ died before the thief did, the thief was promised paradise while BOTH he and Christ were still alive under the OT law.

Heb 9:16,17 the NT law could not come into effect until some point AFTER Christ died and did not come into effect immediately at His death, Lk 24:47 > ACts 2:38

the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised and before he had any children - what then, the promise was null and void until "sometime later" ? Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness long before his faith caused him to do any tangible work.

you're "floundering" mr. bass.

Luke 24:47 and Acts 2:38 say exactly nothing as to when forgiveness, reconciliation with God and redemption into righteousness came to earth. Christ forgave sin on earth, long before He took up the cross, and without requiring even repentance (see: Mark 2:1-12 -- When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” ) -- this is not forgiveness of sin through or under the law of Moses and it was granted when He saw their faith - not their baptism, not their repentance, not their good deeds - the paralyzed man didn't even bring himself to Christ but was brought.

Rom 4:5 is scripture.

Now how many times has "worketh not" been pulled of that context and isolated from ALL other bible verses and then wrongly proclaimed "works do not save"? Too many times just here on this forum.

When "worketh not" is left in context and examined in consideration of what other bible verses say, then one knows that "worketh not" refers to the Jews working to keep the OT law perfectly to try and merit their salvation so their reward is fo debt and not of grace (verse 4) and "worketh not" therefore does NOT refer to obedient works as Abraham had, Heb 11:8,17.

Paul says in Rom 6 one obeys from the heart THEN is freed from sin/justified. Paul does not contradict himself by saying in one passage obeying does justify/frees from sin and then contradicts that in Rom 4:4.

the context is that everyone has sinned and there is no distinction between the circumcised followers of law and the uncircumcised who have never so much as helped a little old lady across the agora (Romans chapter 3). the context is that Abraham was declared righteous before he had done any "work" or performed any sign that separated himself from other peoples - but exactly when he believed God (Romans chapter 4) so that the children of God are not those who are children by doing the works of any law or performing the rituals of a religion, but by faith (Romans chapter 3-4). this is clearly and explicitly spelled out for us. in order that the ungodly might be justified by His blood. in order that those who believe on Him and His redemption might be declared clean by their faith, brought into His household as free men rather than slaves, and made able to then take part in the good works He has beforehand prepared.

you have either not read Romans, or you have been blinded and your ears made dull when you did. the promise is by faith. the reward is by faith. the adoption is by faith. the inheritance is by faith. the gift is by faith. salvation is worked by God, and given according to faith. those who are redeemed are not justified by further actions of the flesh; they are justified and receive the seal of their redemption when they hear the Word and believe. (Ephesians 1)

Eph 2:10 God does not just encourage Christians to do good owrks but 'before ordained" Christians walk in good works. So how will get around what God before ordained Christians to do?

you're not even making sense anymore.
this is darkness. God has promised that if you believe and put your trust in Him - not in yourself, and not in your works - He will take you out of darkness and into light.

we have been placed into the light because we believe and hold to this promise - that He will do this work in us - and so we remain in the light. salvation is into and unto light, into and unto good works, by the work of God - not by bringing yourself into light, but by being brought into it. not by doing works, but by believing - and so being transformed and renewed into a new creature that in fact does do works.

in Romans 4 Paul specifically and emphatically declares that the ungodly are redeemed apart from works, solely by trusting in the mercy and promise of God.
if it were any way otherwise, post could say "i do righteous works and you do not, therefore i am saved and you are not" -- and it would no longer be God who gives mercy to whom He will, but post who judges and salvation an earned paycheck having nothing to do with the kindness of God, and post would be the one who is to be praised, for all the good things that post did.
that is evil and vanity and blasphemy against the Lord, who died for mr. fish and for post while we were ungodly in order to reconcile us to peace with God, if we would just believe and place our trust in HIM and not in ourselves.

perfect love casts out fear; but this dark teaching in you would have us terrified that we are not good enough. this is a thing you should lay at His feet, so that you look for His mercy - so that you might receive it.