Some questions about atonement and salvation

[homwardbound]

The Pharisees were the religious authorities of the time of Jesus. Yet they rejected the plain and obvious truth. They spoke evil against Jesus.

Why is it any surprise that it is any different 2000 years later? The modern Pharisees are the celebrity theologians who deny the doctrine of Jesus and twist Paul to substantiate their dogma.

Jesus said "go and sin no more" and they respond with "you can't."

Jesus said "blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God" and "cleanse first that which is within that the outside be clean also" and they respond with "there is none righteous not one" EVEN THOUGH the Bible speaks of righteous people who were following God.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Yet people don't believe it. They teach perpetual iniquity and ongoing sinning due to the flesh.

It just blows my mind and frustrates me to no end to see how stubborn people are in refusing to believe the plain words of Jesus Himself. It is so unbelievably sad. God has his hand out to people to come to Him and be reconciled and people refuse to come because they have bought into some tickling ears philosophical dogma which directly contradicts Jesus. It is so horrible and upsetting.

So Skinski, can this righteousness be done of flesh, man or by believe (Faith) trust in God or self because of God.
Is it all God or is man involved in being righteous and keeping himself righteous? how can that be, maybe you are not understanding, it is the flesh that is in the way, ones own self born flesh from mommas womb
Does not one need to be born again? And what is the only way one can be born again? Of self efforts or of God alone through the cross of Christ
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

So is the flesh and Spirit of God, at war or not?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The Spirit of God given to me as a gift from God makes me righteous, in the sight of God period, no ands, ifs and buts.
And I never sin willfully because of this amazing gift of new life, given to me from God through Son
So I do understand about not sinning again, and know it is only of Old self that I sin, trusting God to keep me from and if I do sin, it is the unredeemed flesh that got me to sin, and am thankful I have my Advocate Jesus Christ the righteous, protecting me, trusting God through Son, and get taught how to walk in God's Spirit and therefore not sin again by God, God getting all the credit for me stopping any sin, which in essence is not me, it is Christ through me.
Does that make sense Skinski?
Growing in grace as an apple does on a tree, when it is first born it is a perfect apple and is on its way to maturity, to become ripe.
That is what is happening to every born again believer that God has given them new life in God through Christ the Son that finished his work here on earth for the reconciliation for all mankind, waiting for each one to either come to belief r stay in unbelief and never be regenerated.
Thanks
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[JGIG]

Hi Fabian,

Following is one of the best presentations of the Gospel I've heard. It will not answer all of your questions, but sometimes we can't even see the answers we seek until we're born again.

May God grant you wisdom and clarity of thought as you consider the following:

• The Clear Message of Grace Part 1 – Forgiveness (appx. 50 min.)
• The Clear Message of Grace Part 2 – Righteousness (appx. 65 min.)
• The Clear Message of Grace Part 3 – Unbroken Access to God (appx. 40 min.)
• The Clear Message of Grace Part 4 – No Longer Under the Law (appx. 50 min.)
• The Clear Message of Grace Part 5 – A New Nature (appx. 50 min.) – Note: Part 5 may have some language in it regarding the New Nature, referring to the New Nature as the ‘life-force of God’ that may make some uncomfortable. Please understand that the primary audience is in Hong Kong, where this local church is located, and that many of the Chinese folks there have backgrounds in Eastern religions, so that choice of terms resonates with and makes sense to them. I personally would rather that the teacher had emphasized dependence on the Holy Spirit in the last part of the teaching, however I understand the focus that he was bringing with this teaching, and that is this: We are New Creations in Christ. That MEANS something; we were intrinsically changed when we were forgiven of all our sins, filled with the Righteousness of Christ, and sealed with His Holy Spirit. We’re different now. We don’t look at and respond the same way in and to the world as we did before Christ did His Work IN us. While we still struggle with our mind and our flesh in this life, we need to recognize that our spirit is already seated in the heavenlies with Christ according to His Work and according to the Word of God (Ephesians 2:6-7). Overall, this series is excellent, giving a clear presentation of the Gospel and who we who believe in Christ are in Christ. Highly Recommended!

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[Sanashankar]

Hi there,
I have some questions about christianity, particularly about what the christian concepts of atonement and salvation exactly mean. I have met an evangelical christian for the first time in my life a few weeks ago, and we had a very long chat where she tried to explain her faith to me - but I didn´t really understand it despite her best efforts, so I started to read the Bible and google some stuff, but I´m still totally confused (I grew up in a country with a very high density of Atheists and Agnostics, and until recently, the only thing I actually knew about christianity is the nativity story). That´s why I guess my questions will sound very newbie-ish to you, sorry for that in advance!
So, here goes:

1. I understand that christians believe that we need Jesus because we are seperated from God by sinful acts we committed. Now, my first question would be - why didn´t God just create humans that would not sin? And the answer I got was, that God did not want to create "robots", but rather people with free will. But, as I understand it, christians believe that they will have free will in heaven, but will only use their free will to "please God" and that heaven will thus be free of sin. So now my question would be - why didn´t God just create such a heaven in the first place where free will + no sin co-exist, since that seems to be what he wants and I thus see no reason for why he created the universe in the first place instead of just starting with heaven (I´ve also heard the answer that Satan corrupted his creation, but this doesn´t work for me for the same reason - why not create angels that would only use their free will as God wants them to, meaning that there never would have been any fallen angels in the first place?).

2. I understand that evangelical christians believe that all humans deserve punishment in hell for their sins (the non-evangelical christians I have met so far however don´t seem to believe that). I don´t understand how that can be fair / just. Afaict, evangelicals believe that it is impossible for humans to commit no sins whatsoever (Romans 3:23), so even the best of us will have committed some sins. But doesn´t that mean that the punishment in hell is not actually for what we did, but rather for what we are? It doesn´t seem fair to me to punish a human being for being human. I have heard the answer that it is not strictly impossible to live a life free of sin because Jesus was human and lived a sin-free life. But I don´t see the logic in that, that sounds like saying that humans could raise people from the dead and walk on water because Jesus was human and he could do it. So, where is the fairness / justice in this concept?

3. How can an eternal punishment be reconciled with God being just in any case? We wouldn´t call a human judge who sentences everyone, from a thief who stole some bread to feed his starving family to a serial rapist/murderer to "death by torture" a "just" judge - we would call him cruel and arbitrary. So why is this different with God?

4. I don´t understand how christian beliefs can be reconciled with personal accountability. We believe that we are personally responsible for our actions, but in christianity, Jesus took this responsibility away and got punished in our stead. How can one simultaneously believe in personal accountability and christianity? (also, why didn´t Jesus have to suffer for eternity in hell if that is the appropriate punishment for sin?).

5. Independent of whether one believes that libertarian free will exists or not, it seems obvious to me that beliefs cannot be chosen. I can see how my beliefs could change by seeing new evidence, hearing new arguments and so on and so forth. But I can´t simply choose to *genuinely* believe something out of the blue. I don´t claim to have studied all the arguments for christianity in detail (I most certainly did not), but so far, I don´t find the evidence for christianity to be convincing. I can´t simply choose to be convinced by something out of the blue. So if christianity is true and I would die tomorrow, wouldn´t I be sent to hell for something I could not have chosen any other way?

Thanks for your time!
cheerio,
Fabian

Answers

1. There is no free-will. Man is not capable of doing things of their own. Of course we can make choices, but that choices depend upon the internal and external "causes" and that causes are made by God. A man stop sinning not because he suddenly feels to stop, there will always be a cause behind his change. We are in this world not to just pass the test and go to heaven or hell, God is preparing us to be in his image in the kingdom of God.

2. Jesus was able to live sin less, because he had the grace of god in abundance and was waxed strong in spirit during his childhood itself (luke 1:80), which enables him to be sin less. It would have not been possible for him if he did not have the power of God over him. Everything he did, whether raising the dead or anything, he did it with the power of God. He did not do anything by himself, because the bible says so (Jn 8:28). And there is a lot of difference in the understanding of hell. Some believe it to be literal, some do not. Gehenna is the correct translation. Jesus spoke in parables too. there is alot to study abt it rather than just reading it and concluding it to be literal fire.

3. throwing his own creation into burning well of fire is like putting someone in jail for 80 years just because he walked on the grass. Pathetic than that....Doesnt make any sense and such insane theories are not of God, but human beings. Eternity is not biblical, it is a result of the wrong translation. God will be injust if he do something like that , he is a just and loving God and he wont torture his own children.

4.Good question. Jesus did not go to hell to burn because there is no place like that. the suffering he went thru is because he took our sins on his shoulders. The same way a lamb is sacrificed for the sins, he was sacrificed for our sins. We are justified in the eyes of God because of Jesus Christ.

5. "Test all things; hold fast that which is good "- 1Thess 5:21

God bless u